Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching


Londa Peterson
 

 I have a touch screen laptop with no number pad. It's a Lenovo that can actually be turned into a tablet. I have never had any sort of issue with the touch screen making the computer do something I didn't want it to do. I think JAWS changes the way the touch screen works in such a way that you really can't cause yourself problems. The mouse pad is typically the culprit in such accidents rather than the touch screen. I hate large laptops because they're still just too heavy for me. So, I learned to use laptop keystrokes. I guess that's why there are different strokes for different folks as they say.  

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 9:33 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching

 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 10:42 pm, David Moore wrote:

With people using laptops and tablets, it is important to know the JAWS key commands when JAWS is set to laptop keyboard mode.

 David,

        Just based upon my years of teaching JAWS now I have to say the answer to this is really a "yes, and no" proposition.  I could never figure out why the laptop keyboard commands never worked on any laptop any client of mine had.  It was only very recently, because of a conversation off-forum with a member, that I learned that the laptop versus desktop keyboard is a setting you can tweak and that you could, for instance, force a desktop to use laptop commands if you had learned JAWS using only laptop commands on a number-pad-less laptop.  I had originally thought that JAWS would do hardware detection to determine the keyboard layout, and perhaps it does, but I have not dealt with a laptop larger than a netbook that does not come equipped with a full keyboard with number pad in I don't know how long.  Every laptop I've ever tutored with uses the desktop keystrokes.  I make the client aware that the laptop keystrokes exist and explain the situation in which their use becomes necessary, but that's it.  I do not attempt to instruct using them because the machine they use, and probably most of the machines they will ever use, will not use those keystrokes.

          I have yet to see JAWS being used on either a tablet or touch screen laptop.  If my clients ask me for purchasing advice with regard to a laptop, I suggest that they do not go the touch screen route because so many unintended accidents can occur if they, or far more likely, their sighted helpers, begin touching the screen when pointing to it or dragging their finger down the screen (possibly closing a program), etc.

          I am soon to have the novel experience of teaching someone how to use VoiceOver on a Macbook.  I'm very rusty on VoiceOver to begin with, and I have never dealt with it except on touch devices like an iPad and an iPhone.  Trying to do VoiceOver "on a big screen" using a mouse pad will be a real learning experience for all involved!

Brian


 

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 08:37 am, Londa Peterson wrote:
I think JAWS changes the way the touch screen works in such a way that you really can't cause yourself problems.

 And that very well may be true, but I have absolutely no way of knowing since I haven't worked with anyone using either a touchscreen laptop, all-in-one, or 2-in-1 who's also using JAWS.  I do know that there are a number of gestures that are documented in the JAWS 16 and 17 keystrokes documents that clearly employ the touch screen, but it may be that JAWS captures anything that happens on the touch screen and if it's not one of the dedicated JAWS gestures simply doesn't pass it along to Windows.

I do know that I've watched things get chaotic (and sometimes triggered by me) when I try to point something out on the screen (which I'm used to touching on a regular screen, which does nothing) and accidentally triggering something in the quick launch bar or, if I twitch slightly, starting a program from the desktop.  That would be particularly "not good" were it to be happening unintentionally for a JAWS user.

Brian


 
Edited

Londa,

         Were I ever to have a client with a device that comes with a keyboard without a number pad I'd be using the laptop keystrokes with them out of necessity.  I just tend to teach to match that individual's hardware.  I make them aware that there are dedicated laptop keystrokes in case they ever find themselves doing a switch to that sort of laptop, but I don't teach those because I can't see the point at the time that they don't have to use them (and we've got the desktop ones for them to master).

Brian


Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

What’s more, JAWS’ training material has ample info about both.  Material is easily useable by beginners,.

 

Ted

 

From: Martin Blackwell via Groups.io [mailto:taoman1@...]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 6:39 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching

 

Hi,

 

Good post. That’s pretty much what I do as well. I end up teaching a lot more Windows shortcuts than JAWS shortcuts. People want to get things done in their applications. To me, Windows shortcuts are far more likely to be valuable, as I think you are saying. That is not to say that one can ignore JAWS commands though.

 

And I usually teach the Windows shortcut for creating folders (Control Shift N) for recent versions of Windows instead of the menu way.

 

 

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2016 3:13 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching

 

[Edited Message Follows]

Hello All,

          What follows is a rather philosophical question but that certainly has practical implications that the cohort will know about a lot more personally than I ever can.  Hence this is the place to ask.

          When I tutor on using JAWS I do not focus exclusively on JAWS and its keystrokes because JAWS hovers on top of all other Windows programs and assists in using those.  My philosophy is that I want my clients to know as many, if not more, keyboard shortcuts that are universally, or very close to universally, applicable in all Windows programs.  I want them to know that, in almost all cases, ALT+F opens the file menu or equivalent, followed by S saves a file, followed by A does a Save as, etc.

          One of my clients, with whom I had a marathon 3.25 hour tutoring session yesterday, is relatively new to using Windows Live Mail as well as using PDF XChange viewer to perform OCR on the many image PDFs that still get thrown his way.  As a result, I worked him through certain tasks step-by-step and create instructions in the same format, examples of which will follow.  It was only when we were conversing afterward, and he used the phrase JAWS keyboard shortcuts when talking about conventional Windows keyboard shortcuts that I thought it important that he had at least a basic understanding that keyboard shortcuts do differ in what program layer, JAWS versus a give Windows program, is responsible for the interpretation of same.  I want him to understand how to apply Windows keyboard shortcuts "by extension" when he is playing around with a Windows program that's new to him.  Is this a mistake to try to make this distinction?  Is it unwise to not focus nearly exclusively on JAWS keyboard shortcuts for functions that also exist independently as a different Windows keyboard shortcut?  I'd love to get the perspective of those who would know the pluses and minuses of leaning one way or another.

          What follows are a couple of examples of the step-by-step instruction sets I've created, and they look more complicated than they actually are because I try to break things down into simple single steps.  Once you know what you're doing most of these tasks can be done in a few moments.  I'll include the instructions for running OCR with PDF XChange Viewer because it may be helpful to some here who have decided to play with that program.  All focus almost exclusively on using Windows keyboard shortcuts for the program in question with JAWS serving the role of narrating what's happening while you do this.  

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Using PDF XChange Viewer to perform OCR on any PDF you receive that is an image PDF, step-by-step:

1.     Open PDF XChange Viewer from your start menu.

2.     Hit ALT+F,O to bring up the file open browsing dialog.

3.     Hit ALT+I to jump directly to the Look In combo box

4.     Hit down arrow to get into the area that’s somewhat, but not exactly, like the tree view in Windows Explorer.

5.     Hit L until you hear, “Libraries,” announced.

6.     Hit TAB two times, you should hear, “Documents”.

7.     Hit SPACEBAR to select the Documents library.

8.     Hit ENTER to open the documents library.

9.     Hit the first character of the folder or file name you’re trying to perform OCR on. Keep doing this with the first character until you hear its name announced.

10.                        Hit Enter to open the file or folder.  If you’re dealing with a file at this step go straight to step 11.  Otherwise, do the following

a.     If you know the file is in this folder then use the “hit the first character” technique to locate it and jump to step 11 once you have.

b.     If you need to drill down another folder level go back to step 9.

11.                        Hit ALT+O to open the file in PDF XChange Viewer.

12.                        Hit CTRL+SHIFT+C to open the OCR dialog box.  Immediately hit ENTER to initiate the OCR processing.  The length of time this takes depends on the size of the file being processed.  JAWS does not read the processing status box, but will announce the file’s name with star after it when the processing completes.  That’s how you’ll know it’s done.

13.                        Hit ALT+F,S to save the file and its OCR text into the original file itself.

14.                        Hit ALT+F4 to close PDF XChange Viewer.

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Creating a new folder in Windows Explorer, step-by-step:

1.     Open Windows Explorer and navigate to the folder location in which you wish to create the new folder.

2.     Hit ALT+F,W,F to create the new folder itself.

3.     Type in the name you want for the new folder you’re creating.

4.     Hit ENTER to make that new name stick, and you’re done.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

To find a specific e-mail message in WLM, step-by-step:

1.     Hit ALT+O,FI which opens the message find submenu

2.     You are presented with two choices in this submenu:  Find Text and Find Message.  I will cover each of these briefly.

3.     Find Text presents a dialog box allows you to enter a word, words, or phrase that you know is somewhere within the message you’re trying to find.  Simply enter that text and skip to step 5.

4.     Find Message presents you with a dialog box with a number of possible attributes of the message you might want to search on, e.g., Subject, From, To, and others.  Tab through and fill in whichever of these attributes you wish to include in the search.  After you’ve filled in whichever are pertinent, go to step 5.

5.     Hit ALT+I to activate the Find Now key.  This will cause a dialog box to come up with the list of messages that match whatever you searched on, if any exist.  These are presented very much like your inbox message list, but are composed only of messages that match the search criteria you entered.  When you hear the one you’re interested in as you move through them, hit ENTER to open it.   


Londa Peterson
 

 Oh, absolutely! I have heard a number of trainers tell people that they had to have a number pad for JAWS to work properly. I'm glad you're not doing this. By the way, on the point of touch screens, I think JAWS does disable all other gestures but its own. My husband has tried to use my touch screen with JAWS running, and normal gestures do not work much to his frustration. There are actually many JAWS users out there who are using tablets with bluetooth keyboards because it's a cheap computer. I've taught a couple of people to do this, and it has worked quite well for their needs. I certainly don't mean to be hard on you. I just don't like to see people misinformed.  

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 11:56 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching

 

Londa,

         Off forum, were I ever to have a client with a device that comes with a keyboard without a number pad I'd be using the laptop keystrokes with them out of necessity.  I just tend to teach to match that individual's hardware.  I make them aware that there are dedicated laptop keystrokes in case they ever find themselves doing a switch to that sort of laptop, but I don't teach those because I can't see the point at the time that they don't have to use them (and we've got the desktop ones for them to master).

Brian


 

On Mon, Jan 11, 2016 at 10:49 am, Londa Peterson wrote:
I certainly don't mean to be hard on you. I just don't like to see people misinformed.

 Londa,

           I did not take your commentary as being personally directed.  I, too, do not like to see anyone misinformed, whether intentionally or by accident, and with software as feature laden as JAWS that can happen.

           In an off-forums conversation with another poster he actually taught me what forms mode actually was/is, as I've only been working intensively with JAWS post the introduction of auto-forms mode.  Never having had to turn forms mode on I never really understood what separated it from "normal JAWS behavior."  Now that I know what came before, that auto mode can be turned off, if desired, an that auto forms mode really applies (for all practical intents and purposes) to the behavior of edit boxes I get it a lot better.   I also get the idea of the JAWS cursor, PC Cursor, and JAWS Virtual Cursor much better thanks to this persons efforts.

           I came here to learn, and that was a good decision.  Sometimes you learn the most from the most intense criticism as well.  If I put my ideas out there for public comment I fully expect that some of that public comment may be critical, and justifiably so.  I simply ignore what I consider to be rants not based in actually reading what has been explicitly said and/or strongly implied.

Brian


Maria Campbell
 

I make very little use of the numpad, but won't buy a laptop without one.

On 1/11/2016 10:55 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Londa,

Off forum, were I ever to have a client with a device that
comes with a keyboard without a number pad I'd be using the laptop
keystrokes with them out of necessity. I just tend to teach to match
that individual's hardware. I make them aware that there are dedicated
laptop keystrokes in case they ever find themselves doing a switch to
that sort of laptop, but I don't teach those because I can't see the
point at the time that they don't have to use them (and we've got the
desktop ones for them to master).

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@ct.metrocast.net

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


Maria Campbell
 

I neglected to say that the Kurzweil OCR program uses the numpad a lot, so I need to use one on my laptop.

On 1/11/2016 1:28 PM, Maria Campbell wrote:
I make very little use of the numpad, but won't buy a laptop without one.


On 1/11/2016 10:55 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Londa,

Off forum, were I ever to have a client with a device that
comes with a keyboard without a number pad I'd be using the laptop
keystrokes with them out of necessity. I just tend to teach to match
that individual's hardware. I make them aware that there are dedicated
laptop keystrokes in case they ever find themselves doing a switch to
that sort of laptop, but I don't teach those because I can't see the
point at the time that they don't have to use them (and we've got the
desktop ones for them to master).

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@ct.metrocast.net

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


David Moore
 

Hi,
It is easier to use many of them, even on a desktop. Have a great one.
 
 

Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 11:55 AM
Subject: Re: Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching
 

Londa,

         Off forum, were I ever to have a client with a device that comes with a keyboard without a number pad I'd be using the laptop keystrokes with them out of necessity.  I just tend to teach to match that individual's hardware.  I make them aware that there are dedicated laptop keystrokes in case they ever find themselves doing a switch to that sort of laptop, but I don't teach those because I can't see the point at the time that they don't have to use them (and we've got the desktop ones for them to master).

Brian


Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Good analogy.  I remember my first screen reader just loved the function keys.  There was a simple pass key arrangement to pass non-VOS keys to the word processer, which happened to be
DisplayWrite 3.  The transparency thing didn’t work so well, and they would slug it out at Interrupt Vector 9.  A buddy of mine, who was a data analyst, passed me a simple mod to DisplayWrite’s central batch file, and man, what a difference!  After that, you couldn’t crash those programs with a hammer.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 11:44 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching

 

Thanks to all for this fascinating exchange of ideas.

Laura, your question is not in any way dumb and it is very difficult to answer easily.  It's relatively easy for me to know the difference because I can literally see the Windows keyboard shortcuts "reveal themselves" as the sequences are hit, at least a large number of them.  I certainly, for instance, didn't know the keyboard sequence that was used in Windows Live Mail to do a message search in its entirety, particularly the ALT+i for the find now key, but as I work through the process the first time with the client at each step Windows (or the Windows program) shows the next character or characters that are part of the sequence, allowing me to build the entire sequence for inclusion in the step-by-step directions.

I am glad, though, to hear others saying that it is important to make this distinction.  The main reason it's important to me is that there is a huge set of Windows keyboard shortcuts, the three best known being Ctrl+C (copy), Ctrl+X (cut), and Ctrl+V (paste), that are used in precisely the same manner in more programs than I can count.  There are many more that fall into the "extended common" set of Windows keyboard shortcuts and I want my clients to understand that, if they're in a pinch, and they know how to do "process X" in "program Y" that they should at least try seeing if "process X" will get the same result in different Windows "program Z."

The same concept applies to the JAWS layer as well, since you use the same JAWS keyboard shortcuts to accomplish the same tasks in a wide array of Windows programs.

If you know the difference between the two, though, and you have that knowledge "in your bones" you can actually sometimes function if speech goes south at a given point in time and still complete at least the current thing you're trying to do like save a file.

Another reason it's important to know the difference is because sometimes assistive technology like JAWS, ZoomText, or the like "captures" what would be a Windows keyboard shortcut for it's own use.  My client gave an example of this last night, that he'd figured out on his own.  He generally uses either ZoomText or JAWS (much more JAWS these days) separately along with whatever Windows program he needs beneath it.  The other day he had ZoomText, plus JAWS, plus some Windows program open.  One of the commands that we always used to perform a function in that Windows program when JAWS was running alone suddenly wasn't working in the Windows program, and ZoomText was doing something he'd never seen before.  He figured out for himself that ZoomText had commandeered that particular command for its own use and, thus, was not passed along to the Windows program running beneath it for processing.

I use the analogy of the various programs being like separate sifting screens stacked one atop the other.  The screen readers and other assistive technology are always the topmost screen.  They get every blessed keystroke you hit passed through them first, and these programs get to interpret those first, so if a keystroke sequence is considered a command by JAWS, for instance, JAWS does it's thing with that sequence and nothing from it sifts through to the program that is "the next sifting screen down."  Then, all of the keystroke sequences that JAWS didn't snag as its own get passed down to the next sifting screen, and for the purposes of this narrative lets say that's ZoomText.  Now ZoomText gets "first crack" at interpreting the sequences that have passed into its hands, and acts on any of those it recognizes as "my command."  Then whatever is left sifts through and falls into the screen that is the Windows program running below it for interpretation as commands it processes.  I think it's important for people to understand that there exists a hierarchy and that AT sits at the top of that heap and gets first crack at every keyboard input sequence to decide if it "belongs to me" before passing what remains on to the next guy.  Very often this may be irrelevant to doing what you want to do, but it can be key to understanding why "things that used to work" may work no longer if some other AT program gets added to the mix that ends up siphoning off commands that used to be passed through to other programs, so those other programs never see them.

Heavens, but the above seems awfully wordy, but I really can't think of a short way to describe the conceptual framework of program layers and that knowing about it can make sudden changes in behavior on your system a bit more understandable when new stuff enters the mix of programs running at the same time.

Brian 


Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

You learn what  you need, or what you find especially cool or useful.  When you need more, you learn more.  It’s been that way since DOS.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Saturday, January 09, 2016 9:57 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Views on Keyboard Shortcuts to teach or, perhaps, emphasize when teaching

 

Kelly,

          You are indeed correct.   I hasten to add that I do not, and never have, attempted to teach any client the exhaustive list of either JAWS commands or keyboard shortcuts for the Windows programs they're using.   As I pointed out earlier relative to myself, even I don't know anywhere near to all of these.  I let the client's actual needs as I work with them guide just precisely what gets taught in terms of the weird detailed keyboard shortcuts that virtually no sighted person ever uses but that they must use if they wish to independently perform task X.

          I'm also big on the "teach a man or woman to fish" approach to JAWS and Windows, so that when I'm no longer present they are able to do a reasonable amount of digging and exploration on their own.  I do less of this than I'd actually like to because I often have to focus on a list of immediate and pressing needs related to what the client needs to accomplish NOW (or yesterday).

          I will take issue with your statement about blind users and the number of keyboard shortcuts they can manage in their heads.  Virtually every proficient blind computer user I know manages a large number of keyboard shortcuts in their head, far more than I do teaching them, because I learn them to teach them, while they learn them to use them and tend to build upon that list as more and more tasks are required over a period of years.  I'd be shocked if it isn't hundreds, plural, for some of the really, really proficient.

Brian