On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:55 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
I've never set jaws cursor to follow the PC cursor, and I don't know
that my mouse is where the PC cursor is.
With control + insert + Jaws cursor key we can set the Jaws cursor
to stay with the PC cursor.
Shift instead of control will set it to follow the touch cursor, but
I rarely use the touch cursor, only when a program seems to be
otherwise inaccessible.
-
And I have no idea how any of this is related to what I posted.
In the default "out of the box" state for JAWS, the mouse pointer/PC Cursor does not stay tethered to the JAWS cursor.  So your earlier statement that you thought the JAWS Cursor location was always where the mouse pointer was as well was incorrect.
Unless you use commands such as you've noted to change the default behavior, the mouse pointer doesn't really follow anything JAWS is doing, nor does the PC Cursor (and the two can be considered synonymous) in many instances.  They are disconnected from each other under many typical circumstances.  And so long as everything that needs to be accomplished can be done by keyboard commands alone, that doesn't often matter, but at times it really does matter.
That's precisely why there are commands to route the JAWS cursor to the PC Cursor location and the PC Cursor to the JAWS Cursor location so that the two are indeed co-located.
I'm not going to argue the point that the mouse pointer and the PC Cursor are synonymous as far as getting "click control" on something that allows it.  If you are on something in the JAWS cursor that requires a right or left click and it's an occasion where the PC cursor is not following the JAWS cursor, you have to route the PC Cursor to the JAWS cursor before issuing a click.
There are times, like when using File Explorer, where the JAWS Cursor and PC cursor are virtually always locked together just based on how that program works.  But there are lots of other instances where they are definitely not in lock step with each other and you need to route one to the other.
--
Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.
*     ~ Lauren Bacall

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:55 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:

I've never set jaws cursor to follow the PC cursor, and I don't know
that my mouse is where the PC cursor is.
With control + insert + Jaws cursor key we can set the Jaws cursor
to stay with the PC cursor.
Shift instead of control will set it to follow the touch cursor, but
I rarely use the touch cursor, only when a program seems to be
otherwise inaccessible.

-
And I have no idea how any of this is related to what I posted.

In the default "out of the box" state for JAWS, the mouse pointer/PC
Cursor does not stay tethered to the JAWS cursor. So your earlier
statement that you thought the JAWS Cursor location was always where the
mouse pointer was as well was incorrect.

Unless you use commands such as you've noted to change the default
behavior, the mouse pointer doesn't really follow anything JAWS is
doing, nor does the PC Cursor (and the two can be considered synonymous)
in many instances. They are disconnected from each other under many
typical circumstances. And so long as everything that needs to be
accomplished can be done by keyboard commands alone, that doesn't often
matter, but at times it really does matter.

That's precisely why there are commands to route the JAWS cursor to the
PC Cursor location and the PC Cursor to the JAWS Cursor location so that
the two are indeed co-located.

I'm not going to argue the point that the mouse pointer and the PC
Cursor are synonymous as far as getting "click control" on something
that allows it. If you are on something in the JAWS cursor that
requires a right or left click and it's an occasion where the PC cursor
is not following the JAWS cursor, you have to route the PC Cursor to the
JAWS cursor before issuing a click.

There are times, like when using File Explorer, where the JAWS Cursor
and PC cursor are virtually always locked together just based on how
that program works. But there are lots of other instances where they
are definitely not in lock step with each other and you need to route
one to the other.

--

Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t.
* ~ Lauren Bacall

Mike,

I don't have JAWS on this machine at the moment, so I can't test directly right now.  What I really hope is now somewhere in JAWS is visible highlighting of what has focus in the virtual cursor but presented on the screen, tracking as the virtual cursor position changes.

I know that this sort of feature is of zero use for someone who cannot see, but when I need to collaborate with a screen reader user there is no other way I can know, with precision, what it is that the screen reader has focus on (or at least when we're talking controls, edit boxes, etc. - I can follow along when text is being read provided the screen scrolls when the last visible line of text is done and a "read all" is continuing).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.
     ~ Lauren Bacall

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:28 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: preforming a right click

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 01:21 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

It would have really been nice if they could have done without all these different cursors

-
There really are only two that are "active" at any given time, the virtual cursor and the PC cursor.

And the virtual cursor is either going to be the JAWS Cursor, if you're doing pretty much everything via keyboard, or the Touch Cursor.  Those are both "situational overlays" for the virtual cursor and only the virtual cursor.

Believe me, it took me forever to wrap my head around the fact that screen readers really are not "reading the screen" in any meaningful sense of that phrase.  They load what is shown on the screen into a virtual cursor and everything is happening on the material loaded there.  And for someone who can see, the virtual cursor can get very confusing if a web page is coded sloppily such that the visual presentation is beautifully organized but how that loads into the virtual cursor is not.  Good HTML coding makes visual presentation and virtual cursor ordering largely congruent.  But crappy HTML coding can have the ordering of what gets loaded into the virtual cursor not have anything at all to do with how visual presentation lays things out.  When a screen reader user starts at the top of a page, and a few short navigation commands later is buried in the middle or at the end, not following the visual flow, it's a nightmare (and not just for the sighted assistant, because that visual flow is important to how the data is ordered for someone who can see it, so it should be ordered similarly for someone who can't, but it isn't).
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.
     ~ Lauren Bacall

Brian wrote:
Believe me, it took me forever to wrap my head around the fact that screen readers really are not "reading the screen" in any meaningful sense of that phrase.  They load what is shown on the screen into a virtual cursor and everything is happening on the material loaded there.
The screen is not loaded into a Virtual Cursor. It is loaded into a Virtual Buffer, which is completely different from a Cursor. A cursor is an indicator. A buffer is a data storage area.
Bill White
billwhite92701@... <mailto:billwhite92701@...>
*From:*main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:28 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: preforming a right click
On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 01:21 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
It would have really been nice if they could have done without all these different cursors
-
There really are only two that are "active" at any given time, the virtual cursor and the PC cursor.
And the virtual cursor is either going to be the JAWS Cursor, if you're doing pretty much everything via keyboard, or the Touch Cursor.  Those are both "situational overlays" for the virtual cursor and only the virtual cursor.
Believe me, it took me forever to wrap my head around the fact that screen readers really are not "reading the screen" in any meaningful sense of that phrase.  They load what is shown on the screen into a virtual cursor and everything is happening on the material loaded there.  And for someone who can see, the virtual cursor can get very confusing if a web page is coded sloppily such that the visual presentation is beautifully organized but how that loads into the virtual cursor is not.  Good HTML coding makes visual presentation and virtual cursor ordering largely congruent.  But crappy HTML coding can have the ordering of what gets loaded into the virtual cursor not have anything at all to do with how visual presentation lays things out. When a screen reader user starts at the top of a page, and a few short navigation commands later is buried in the middle or at the end, not following the visual flow, it's a nightmare (and not just for the sighted assistant, because that visual flow is important to how the data is ordered for someone who can see it, so it should be ordered similarly for someone who can't, but it isn't).
--
Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
**Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.***
*     ~ Lauren Bacall

Brian wrote:

Believe me, it took me forever to wrap my head around the fact that
screen readers really are not "reading the screen" in any meaningful
sense of that phrase. They load what is shown on the screen into a
virtual cursor and everything is happening on the material loaded there.

The screen is not loaded into a Virtual Cursor. It is loaded into a
Virtual Buffer, which is completely different from a Cursor. A cursor is
an indicator. A buffer is a data storage area.

Bill White

billwhite92701@... <mailto:billwhite92701@...>

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:28 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: preforming a right click

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 01:21 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

It would have really been nice if they could have done without all these
different cursors

-
There really are only two that are "active" at any given time, the
virtual cursor and the PC cursor.

And the virtual cursor is either going to be the JAWS Cursor, if you're
doing pretty much everything via keyboard, or the Touch Cursor. Those
are both "situational overlays" for the virtual cursor and only the
virtual cursor.

Believe me, it took me forever to wrap my head around the fact that
screen readers really are not "reading the screen" in any meaningful
sense of that phrase. They load what is shown on the screen into a
virtual cursor and everything is happening on the material loaded
there. And for someone who can see, the virtual cursor can get very
confusing if a web page is coded sloppily such that the visual
presentation is beautifully organized but how that loads into the
virtual cursor is not. Good HTML coding makes visual presentation and
virtual cursor ordering largely congruent. But crappy HTML coding can
have the ordering of what gets loaded into the virtual cursor not have
anything at all to do with how visual presentation lays things out.
When a screen reader user starts at the top of a page, and a few short
navigation commands later is buried in the middle or at the end, not
following the visual flow, it's a nightmare (and not just for the
sighted assistant, because that visual flow is important to how the data
is ordered for someone who can see it, so it should be ordered similarly
for someone who can't, but it isn't).
--

Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

**Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t.***
* ~ Lauren Bacall

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 01:27 PM, Curtis Chong wrote:

Starting with Windows 10, JAWS does provide a visual indication as to where the virtual cursor is moving on a web page. Great for demonstrations, etc.

-
If you happen to know how that's turned on and off, I would very much appreciate having that information.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.
     ~ Lauren Bacall

Brian wrote:

Believe me, it took me forever to wrap my head around the fact that
screen readers really are not "reading the screen" in any meaningful
sense of that phrase. They load what is shown on the screen into a
virtual cursor and everything is happening on the material loaded there.

The screen is not loaded into a Virtual Cursor. It is loaded into a
Virtual Buffer, which is completely different from a Cursor. A cursor
is an indicator. A buffer is a data storage area.

Bill White

billwhite92701@... <mailto:billwhite92701@...>

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] *On Behalf Of
*Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, August 6, 2022 10:28 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: preforming a right click

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 01:21 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

It would have really been nice if they could have done without all
these different cursors

-
There really are only two that are "active" at any given time, the
virtual cursor and the PC cursor.

And the virtual cursor is either going to be the JAWS Cursor, if
you're doing pretty much everything via keyboard, or the Touch Cursor.
Those are both "situational overlays" for the virtual cursor and only
the virtual cursor.

Believe me, it took me forever to wrap my head around the fact that
screen readers really are not "reading the screen" in any meaningful
sense of that phrase. They load what is shown on the screen into a
virtual cursor and everything is happening on the material loaded
there. And for someone who can see, the virtual cursor can get very
confusing if a web page is coded sloppily such that the visual
presentation is beautifully organized but how that loads into the
virtual cursor is not. Good HTML coding makes visual presentation and
virtual cursor ordering largely congruent. But crappy HTML coding can
have the ordering of what gets loaded into the virtual cursor not have
anything at all to do with how visual presentation lays things out.
When a screen reader user starts at the top of a page, and a few short
navigation commands later is buried in the middle or at the end, not
following the visual flow, it's a nightmare (and not just for the
sighted assistant, because that visual flow is important to how the
data is ordered for someone who can see it, so it should be ordered
similarly for someone who can't, but it isn't).
--

Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

**Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.
If you’re alive, it isn’t.***
* ~ Lauren Bacall

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:41 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:30 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

There are key strokes to move one JAWS cursor to where another cursor is, it would be nice if there was something like that for the mouse pointer, or an option in JAWS to keep the mouse pointer with the currently active JAWS cursor.

-
There are keystrokes in JAWS and every other screen reader I've touched to move the mouse pointer to what has focus in the virtual cursor, and vice versa.

In JAWS keyboard shortcut parlance the PC Cursor and the mouse pointer can be thought of pretty much synonymously.  If you've got focus on something and want the mouse pointer to be there, two, issuing the Route PC Cursor to JAWS Cursor command (INSERT + NumPad Plus) does it.  Then you can left or right click (and this presumes that the thing where the mouse pointer/PC Cursor has focus would react to same).  NVDA uses a precisely analogous method, but they describe it as Move mouse pointer to current navigator object and where the full description of that action is, "Moves the mouse to the location of the current navigator object and review cursor."

I've been having students use these commands so that they can then use SHIFT + F10 or Applications/Context Menu Key or try emulated clicking for as long as I can remember.  And it's way more reliable when emulation is not part of the picture.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.
     ~ Lauren Bacall

The JAWS cursor is the mouse cursor. I'll use a browser window as my example. 

The virtual PC cursor is the default cursor in a browser. I find a link or a button that I can't activate with enter or spacebar. I want to left click it with my mouse. On a laptop I would hit capslock plus [. On a desktop I would hit insert plus - on the numpad. This routs the JAWS cursor to the VP, in this case virtual PC, cursor. I then errow back and fourth until I find the first letter of the label I want to click on. At this point, I am using the JAWS cursor because I routed it to the PC cursor. When I find the first letter I left click it with capslock plus 8 or numpad / .

It’s off by default, and I don’t think it has anything to do with Windows 10 specifically (think it’s been in virtual options for a while). But it’s an option in settings somewhere. It’s certainly very helpful if you are using the computer with a sighted person looking at what you’re doing.
I’ve forgotten the name of the setting but it’s somewhere int aht virtual cursor lot.
*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 6, 2022 01:29 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: preforming a right click
On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 01:27 PM, Curtis Chong wrote:
Starting with Windows 10, JAWS does provide a visual indication as
to where the virtual cursor is moving on a web page. Great for
demonstrations, etc.
-
If you happen to know how that's turned on and off, I would very much appreciate having that information.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.**
*     ~ Lauren Bacall

On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 02:07 PM, Curtis Chong wrote:
If you activate the JAWS cursor, the mouse pointer is right there.
This is different from activating the “virtual” cursor.
-
Then which of the buffers/cursors is "the real one" (which corresponds to what a sighted person, operating a computer in the sighted way, actually sees when acting on something) versus the virtual one.
I could have it completely backwards, but it was my understanding that the JAWS virtual buffer and the cursor position within it were the virtual buffer/cursor, and the PC Cursor (there is no equivalent of the virtual buffer, per se) was "the other one" that corresponded directly to the screen.
If I do have it backward, then that would flip-flop the routing command when you need to route the mouse pointer to what JAWS has focus on when that's needed.  Someone her can certainly clear up whether the JAWS cursor is operating on the virtual buffer or not.
I more frequently have need to route the mouse pointer to where the screen reader has focus than vice versa.  But neither one of those could be classified as a frequent need in general.
--
Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.
*     ~ Lauren Bacall