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Moderated preforming a right click
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Gene Warner
Unfortunately, I have yet to come across a situation where the JAWS simulated mouse clicks actually helped. :-(
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Gene... On 8/6/2022 11:40 AM, Dave Durber wrote:
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On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:25 AM, Gene Warner wrote:
I wish my laptop had that switch, in order to disable my touch pad I had to install the touch pad drivers, ludicrous since I won't be using the touch pad...- Well, I'll agree it's ludicrous that you had to install them, as they should have already been there like the drivers are for any piece of hardware that requires same in a computer system. Whether you actually use any given piece of the system is not relevant when it comes to the need for a device driver so the system can control it, including turning it off. Even the rare laptops with an actual physical on/off switch for the touchpad rely on the device drivers for the device. By the way, a great many touchpads do have an on/off feature without a switch. It's usually toggled by a tap in a specific corner of the touchpad and the feature itself can be turned on or off. In the case of the Synaptics device on my laptop, this can be found under the Tapping dialog of the TouchPad properties. There's a section entitled TouchPad Disable Zones Setting that contains a single checkbox: Double tap to enable or disable touchpad. And if it's checked, that double tap must occur in the upper leftmost corner of the TouchPad to toggle its state, so it's not really very easy to change the state unless you intend to do so. If you check that checkbox there is also a set of two radio buttons that become accessible that allow you to specify whether that toggle action applies only to one session (that is, until you reboot) or whether the TouchPad stays switched off until and unless you were to switch it back on again. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Dave Durber
Gene:
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Oops! I cocked up! It's CAPS LOCK+8 and CAPS LOCK+9, to click the left and right mouse buttons, if you are using the JAWS laptop keyboard layout. Dave ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Warner" <genewarner3@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, August 6, 2022 4:54 PM Subject: Re: preforming a right click Unfortunately, I have yet to come across a situation where the JAWS simulated mouse clicks actually helped. :-( |
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On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:54 AM, Gene Warner wrote:
Unfortunately, I have yet to come across a situation where the JAWS simulated mouse clicks actually helped. :-(- Which has also been my experience way more often than not. And not just with JAWS, either. Hence the reason I encourage people to avoid the use of emulated mouse button clicks when actual mouse button clicks without mouse movement can be easily arranged. And right mouse click doesn't even require arranging, as the Applications/Context Menu Key or SHIFT + F10 is the functional equivalent and built in to Windows itself. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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K0LNY
One example I can immediately think of, where a right mouse click helped, is
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on web pages, where you are trying to perform an action, like a download/save target as, and the context menu key options only offer things that refer to the entire page, as if the context menu button does not know it is on a clickible thing, but the right mouse click works like the applications key should. This is rare these days, but it still sometimes does happen. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Warner" <genewarner3@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2022 10:54 AM Subject: Re: preforming a right click Unfortunately, I have yet to come across a situation where the JAWS simulated mouse clicks actually helped. :-( Gene... On 8/6/2022 11:40 AM, Dave Durber wrote: Kevin: |
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Gene Warner
I don't use the laptop layout, and I wasn't calling you out for your mistake because I didn't know it was one. I was just saying that so far, I've never had any of the JAWS simulated mouse clicks do any good for me, usually they did the simulated click, but the web page or program doesn't respond. That's all.
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Gene... On 8/6/2022 12:08 PM, Dave Durber wrote:
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Gene Warner
Actually not, I had just done a fresh install of Windows and without the drivers, Windows sees the touch pad as a PS/2 mouse.
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Gene... On 8/6/2022 12:08 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:25 AM, Gene Warner wrote: |
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On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:23 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
Actually not, I had just done a fresh install of Windows and without the drivers, Windows sees the touch pad as a PS/2 mouse.- Not that I don't believe you, as I know that such can happen, it's just never happened to me, at least not in years. Microsoft has generally gotten pretty good about recognizing actual hardware on a clean install and getting the correct driver, but, and it's an important but, only if the device's manufacturer is providing the most updated drivers for Microsoft to include in its Great Driver Compendium in the Cloud. I had one older Dell Inspiron 1720 laptop that started out life in the Windows Vista Era that had an Elon touchpad that I was never able to find a driver for that would work with Windows 10. And given the amount of research I did, and conversations on tech forums I had, I was not alone. I absolutely love how infrequently I have to get into searching for device drivers in the Windows 10 and 11 eras. It happens occasionally, though. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Gene Warner
But even that has its drawbacks. I have a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 which has left and right mouse buttons below the space bar. I rarely use them because the mouse pointer has to be over what you want to click on and as far as I know the only way to do that is with a real live mouse, trackball, touch pad, and etc. which are all a pain to use even with mouse echo turned on.
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There are key strokes to move one JAWS cursor to where another cursor is, it would be nice if there was something like that for the mouse pointer, or an option in JAWS to keep the mouse pointer with the currently active JAWS cursor. Gene... On 8/6/2022 12:11 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:54 AM, Gene Warner wrote: |
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K0LNY
I always thought the Jaws cursor location is always where the mouse pointer
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is. Maybe this has changed over the years, but I know that in early Jaws, the jaws cursor was the mouse cursor. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Gene Warner" <genewarner3@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2022 11:30 AM Subject: Re: preforming a right click But even that has its drawbacks. I have a Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 which has left and right mouse buttons below the space bar. I rarely use them because the mouse pointer has to be over what you want to click on and as far as I know the only way to do that is with a real live mouse, trackball, touch pad, and etc. which are all a pain to use even with mouse echo turned on. There are key strokes to move one JAWS cursor to where another cursor is, it would be nice if there was something like that for the mouse pointer, or an option in JAWS to keep the mouse pointer with the currently active JAWS cursor. Gene... On 8/6/2022 12:11 PM, Brian Vogel wrote: On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 11:54 AM, Gene Warner wrote: |
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Gene Warner
Maybe it is, I have just never heard any confirmation of that and often when I need to do something like pass key through on a control, I have to first do something to select the control before I do the pass key through function.
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Gene... On 8/6/2022 12:36 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
I always thought the Jaws cursor location is always where the mouse pointer |
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On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:30 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
There are key strokes to move one JAWS cursor to where another cursor is, it would be nice if there was something like that for the mouse pointer, or an option in JAWS to keep the mouse pointer with the currently active JAWS cursor.- There are keystrokes in JAWS and every other screen reader I've touched to move the mouse pointer to what has focus in the virtual cursor, and vice versa. In JAWS keyboard shortcut parlance the PC Cursor and the mouse pointer can be thought of pretty much synonymously. If you've got focus on something and want the mouse pointer to be there, two, issuing the Route PC Cursor to JAWS Cursor command (INSERT + NumPad Plus) does it. Then you can left or right click (and this presumes that the thing where the mouse pointer/PC Cursor has focus would react to same). NVDA uses a precisely analogous method, but they describe it as Move mouse pointer to current navigator object and where the full description of that action is, "Moves the mouse to the location of the current navigator object and review cursor." I've been having students use these commands so that they can then use SHIFT + F10 or Applications/Context Menu Key or try emulated clicking for as long as I can remember. And it's way more reliable when emulation is not part of the picture. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:36 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
I always thought the Jaws cursor location is always where the mouse pointer- Absolutely not. Hence the need for the command I just posted about. But, you are absolutely right that the JAWS cursor location can be considered to be where the mouse pointer (PC Cursor) will have focus once it's been routed to the JAWS Cursor location. One of the things that it takes some real getting used to when you're a sighted instructor for screen readers is that they make no effort to keep what's on the screen and what has focus in the virtual cursor in sync. That is unless you are using something like the Focus Highlight feature of NVDA, and I'm virtually certain JAWS now has this, too, but I can't for the life of me pull up what they call it or how to turn it on/off. I get why there's no need to do this for most screen reader users, but many people get launched into screen reader use while they are losing their vision and many screen reader users have occasion to be trying to show something to someone who's sighted, and not having the screen content follow the location of where the screen reader is in the virtual cursor makes that very difficult for anyone using sight to understand where the screen reader is. For a piece of accessibility software that is very commonly used in workplaces I've always thought the default should be that you make the changes in where the screen reader has focus in the virtual cursor be reflected in what's shown on the screen. And, of course, this is possible to do. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
I need to do something like pass key through on a control, I have to first do something to select the control before I do the pass key through function.- The next time you have occasion for this to be necessary, would you mind posting about it? I have needed to use and teach the pass-through key, but way over 9 times out of 10 it's being used because either the screen reader or one of its add-ons/scripts has "stolen" a keyboard shortcut from the application it's running over and you need to have the screen reader not react and just hand it to the application instead. There is a finite number of keyboard shortcuts, and occasional clashes are inevitable. And the hierarchy of processing for any keystokes is: 1. Windows itself. 2. Screen reader, if such is running 3. Application program And once one level has processed, that keystroke is consumed and not passed further down the line. And this is precisely why the pass-through command came into existence. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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K0LNY
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I've never set jaws cursor to follow the PC cursor,
and I don't know that my mouse is where the PC cursor is.
With control + insert + Jaws cursor key we can set
the Jaws cursor to stay with the PC cursor.
Shift instead of control will set it to follow the
touch cursor, but I rarely use the touch cursor, only when a program seems to be
otherwise inaccessible.
Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2022 11:48 AM
Subject: Re: preforming a right click I always thought the Jaws cursor location is always where the mouse pointer- Absolutely not. Hence the need for the command I just posted about. But, you are absolutely right that the JAWS cursor location can be considered to be where the mouse pointer (PC Cursor) will have focus once it's been routed to the JAWS Cursor location. One of the things that it takes some real getting used to when you're a sighted instructor for screen readers is that they make no effort to keep what's on the screen and what has focus in the virtual cursor in sync. That is unless you are using something like the Focus Highlight feature of NVDA, and I'm virtually certain JAWS now has this, too, but I can't for the life of me pull up what they call it or how to turn it on/off. I get why there's no need to do this for most screen reader users, but many people get launched into screen reader use while they are losing their vision and many screen reader users have occasion to be trying to show something to someone who's sighted, and not having the screen content follow the location of where the screen reader is in the virtual cursor makes that very difficult for anyone using sight to understand where the screen reader is. For a piece of accessibility software that is very commonly used in workplaces I've always thought the default should be that you make the changes in where the screen reader has focus in the virtual cursor be reflected in what's shown on the screen. And, of course, this is possible to do. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044 Here
is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re
alive, it isn’t. |
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On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:55 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
- And I have no idea how any of this is related to what I posted. In the default "out of the box" state for JAWS, the mouse pointer/PC Cursor does not stay tethered to the JAWS cursor. So your earlier statement that you thought the JAWS Cursor location was always where the mouse pointer was as well was incorrect. Unless you use commands such as you've noted to change the default behavior, the mouse pointer doesn't really follow anything JAWS is doing, nor does the PC Cursor (and the two can be considered synonymous) in many instances. They are disconnected from each other under many typical circumstances. And so long as everything that needs to be accomplished can be done by keyboard commands alone, that doesn't often matter, but at times it really does matter. That's precisely why there are commands to route the JAWS cursor to the PC Cursor location and the PC Cursor to the JAWS Cursor location so that the two are indeed co-located. I'm not going to argue the point that the mouse pointer and the PC Cursor are synonymous as far as getting "click control" on something that allows it. If you are on something in the JAWS cursor that requires a right or left click and it's an occasion where the PC cursor is not following the JAWS cursor, you have to route the PC Cursor to the JAWS cursor before issuing a click. There are times, like when using File Explorer, where the JAWS Cursor and PC cursor are virtually always locked together just based on how that program works. But there are lots of other instances where they are definitely not in lock step with each other and you need to route one to the other. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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K0LNY
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Why is there no command for setting the Jaws
to follow the mouse cursor?
Or is there one?
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2022 12:06 PM
Subject: Re: preforming a right click - And I have no idea how any of this is related to what I posted. In the default "out of the box" state for JAWS, the mouse pointer/PC Cursor does not stay tethered to the JAWS cursor. So your earlier statement that you thought the JAWS Cursor location was always where the mouse pointer was as well was incorrect. Unless you use commands such as you've noted to change the default behavior, the mouse pointer doesn't really follow anything JAWS is doing, nor does the PC Cursor (and the two can be considered synonymous) in many instances. They are disconnected from each other under many typical circumstances. And so long as everything that needs to be accomplished can be done by keyboard commands alone, that doesn't often matter, but at times it really does matter. That's precisely why there are commands to route the JAWS cursor to the PC Cursor location and the PC Cursor to the JAWS Cursor location so that the two are indeed co-located. I'm not going to argue the point that the mouse pointer and the PC Cursor are synonymous as far as getting "click control" on something that allows it. If you are on something in the JAWS cursor that requires a right or left click and it's an occasion where the PC cursor is not following the JAWS cursor, you have to route the PC Cursor to the JAWS cursor before issuing a click. There are times, like when using File Explorer, where the JAWS Cursor and PC cursor are virtually always locked together just based on how that program works. But there are lots of other instances where they are definitely not in lock step with each other and you need to route one to the other. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044 Here
is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re
alive, it isn’t. |
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Gene Warner
It's usually some button or link on some web page where just hitting enter or the space bar gets no results, I then use the pass key through function then hit enter and it works. But if I haven't interacted with the control in some way, then the pass key through doesn't work, which makes me believe that the key went somewhere else.
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Gene... On 8/6/2022 12:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 6, 2022 at 12:39 PM, Gene Warner wrote: |
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Mike B.
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Brian,
Check out the settings in the message below and give them
a test run to see if they'll work as advertised.
Note: This setting is only available in Windows 8
and higher.
Original Message From: Richard Turner In the Jaws settings for Screen Tracks Virtual Cursor checked‑ it says: When selected, the screen updates while reading with the Virtual PC cursor. This assures that the text you are currently reading is displayed on the screen at the same time. When not selected, the Virtual PC cursor can still access all information in a Web page, but the on screen display does not track as the Virtual PC cursor moves through the document. This setting is selected by default. This most certainly is not happening with Jaws 2022 and
Microsoft Edge.
If I am reading on a web page and then ask my wife to
look at the screen to clarify something, she cannot tell where I am on the
screen.
Is there another setting that has to be set a certain way
for this actually to work, or is this simply a fantasy?
Richard
From: Humberto Avila
I would try enabling a JAWS feature called visual
tracking. This feature allows one to visually track what the Virtual PC cursor
is doing on any Web page
in any Web browser. It works by placing some sort of visual block or rectangle around the focused item in which the Virtual PC cursor is focused on. So for instance if you are in a search web page and you are on the first search result heading, JAWS will visually highlight that heading. To enable this function in JAWS while you are in
Edge:
list of 4 items
1. Open settings center by pressing JAWSKey+6 (on the number row above letter Y) 2. optionally you can press Control+Shift+D (D for Default) to modify the default settings, not just for Edge, so it could apply settings to all browsers and apps that use Virtual PC input. 3. In the Search box that comes up, type the word "visual" and JAWS should say, search results listbox. 4. Visual tracking should be one of the options. Expand this treeview by pressing enter or Right Arrow, and explore the options under there. Highlight virtual PC cursor should be one of those, and pressing spacebar should check the checkbox if it's unchecked. list end This should help with visually tracking where the screen
is for your sighted wife. Hopefully it works. I've never truly tested it out
with a sighted person
the way that you want to use it, so I don't know if or how it works well or better than using the "Screen Tracks Virtual PC Cursor" setting. thanks and take care!
Humberto
Take care. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 06, 2022 9:48 AM
Subject: Re: preforming a right click I always thought the Jaws cursor location is always where the mouse pointer- Absolutely not. Hence the need for the command I just posted about. But, you are absolutely right that the JAWS cursor location can be considered to be where the mouse pointer (PC Cursor) will have focus once it's been routed to the JAWS Cursor location. One of the things that it takes some real getting used to when you're a sighted instructor for screen readers is that they make no effort to keep what's on the screen and what has focus in the virtual cursor in sync. That is unless you are using something like the Focus Highlight feature of NVDA, and I'm virtually certain JAWS now has this, too, but I can't for the life of me pull up what they call it or how to turn it on/off. I get why there's no need to do this for most screen reader users, but many people get launched into screen reader use while they are losing their vision and many screen reader users have occasion to be trying to show something to someone who's sighted, and not having the screen content follow the location of where the screen reader is in the virtual cursor makes that very difficult for anyone using sight to understand where the screen reader is. For a piece of accessibility software that is very commonly used in workplaces I've always thought the default should be that you make the changes in where the screen reader has focus in the virtual cursor be reflected in what's shown on the screen. And, of course, this is possible to do. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044 Here
is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re
alive, it isn’t. |
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Mike,
I don't have JAWS on this machine at the moment, so I can't test directly right now. What I really hope is now somewhere in JAWS is visible highlighting of what has focus in the virtual cursor but presented on the screen, tracking as the virtual cursor position changes. I know that this sort of feature is of zero use for someone who cannot see, but when I need to collaborate with a screen reader user there is no other way I can know, with precision, what it is that the screen reader has focus on (or at least when we're talking controls, edit boxes, etc. - I can follow along when text is being read provided the screen scrolls when the last visible line of text is done and a "read all" is continuing). -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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