moderated Locking the mouse buttons:


Gene Warner
 

You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was being honest because I've been there.

A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most, if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was not a very comfortable situation.

Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in that class complained about him.

Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn yet.

Before you can run, you must first learn to walk.

Gene...

On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote:
Harsh!  Do you really need to be so rude?  It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs.
Don
-----Original Message----- From: Gene Warner
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 2:22 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:
You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be
a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you
can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal
is, you have no business being an instructor.
Gene...
On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote:
I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking.  The enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want.  Then there is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the teacher is not listening to his or her student.  Indirectly related. A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask.  Smile. A good teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or giving vague questions or answers.  If a blind person asks where something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however not in a way that the blind person can understand.

*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 7, 2022 1:14 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

    Totally agree! After I lost my vision, I signed up for a JAWS class
    at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted
    and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to learn?"

-
Well, then, you'd definitely not want me as an instructor, either. Most of my clients are adults who have lost their vision as adults.  I am there to instruct on using a screen reader, but I find that allowing the client to choose what they want to do/learn while learning the screen reader is best left up to them.  I can't know what programs a given client might want to use or, if trying to teach screen reader skills with a web browser, what it is they'd prefer to read, research, etc.

One of the things I have had the hardest time getting certain field counselors in the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired to understand is that you cannot teach how to use a screen reader as a stand alone thing.  A screen reader has, as its reason for being, accessing something else.  And I'd rather the client tell me, at least for the most part, what the "something elses" are in their lives.

I can't even begin to imagine what, "What do you want to learn?," even means when it comes to instructing on a screen reader since they don't function in isolation.  I interpret it as, "What do you need or want to learn how to use with a screen reader?"  And I want my students to tell me that, and I'll focus accordingly.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.**
*     ~ Lauren Bacall


David Diamond
 

I like to say you have to crawl before you can run. Pretty much means the same thing. Smile.

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> on behalf of Gene Warner <genewarner3@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 8:47:07 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:
 
You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was
being honest because I've been there.

A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a
screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most,
if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to
learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not
answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was
not a very comfortable situation.

Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned
that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and
that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated
soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in
that class complained about him.

Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in
which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach
is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn
yet.

Before you can run, you must first learn to walk.

Gene...

On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote:
> Harsh!  Do you really need to be so rude?  It seems reasonable that an
> instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs.
>
> Don
>

> -----Original Message----- From: Gene Warner
> Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 2:22 PM
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:
>
> You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be
> a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you
> can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal
> is, you have no business being an instructor.
>
> Gene...
>
>
> On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote:
>> I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out
>> and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to
>> learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking.  The
>> enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student
>> doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want.  Then there
>> is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the
>> teacher is not listening to his or her student.  Indirectly related. 
>> A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted,
>> I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear
>> enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask.  Smile. A good
>> teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or
>> giving vague questions or answers.  If a blind person asks where
>> something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over
>> there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however
>> not in a way that the blind person can understand.
>>
>> *From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian
>> Vogel
>> *Sent:* August 7, 2022 1:14 PM
>> *To:* main@jfw.groups.io
>> *Subject:* Re: Locking the mouse buttons:
>>
>> On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
>>
>>     Totally agree! After I lost my vision, I signed up for a JAWS class
>>     at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted
>>     and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to
>> learn?"
>>
>> -
>> Well, then, you'd definitely not want me as an instructor, either. 
>> Most of my clients are adults who have lost their vision as adults.  I
>> am there to instruct on using a screen reader, but I find that
>> allowing the client to choose what they want to do/learn while
>> learning the screen reader is best left up to them.  I can't know what
>> programs a given client might want to use or, if trying to teach
>> screen reader skills with a web browser, what it is they'd prefer to
>> read, research, etc.
>>
>> One of the things I have had the hardest time getting certain field
>> counselors in the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually
>> Impaired to understand is that you cannot teach how to use a screen
>> reader as a stand alone thing.  A screen reader has, as its reason for
>> being, accessing something else.  And I'd rather the client tell me,
>> at least for the most part, what the "something elses" are in their
>> lives.
>>
>> I can't even begin to imagine what, "What do you want to learn?," even
>> means when it comes to instructing on a screen reader since they don't
>> function in isolation.  I interpret it as, "What do you need or want
>> to learn how to use with a screen reader?"  And I want my students to
>> tell me that, and I'll focus accordingly.
>> --
>>
>> Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044
>>
>> *Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. 
>> If you’re alive, it isn’t.**
>> *     ~ Lauren Bacall
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>






Don Walls
 

You evade my point. I'm not interested in the history of your course experience. I refer only to your rudeness. Who are you to call Brian "a lousy instructor". Shame on you. Get over yourself and, if you can't express yourself in a more courteous way, get offf this list.

Don

-----Original Message-----
From: Gene Warner
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 8:47 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was
being honest because I've been there.

A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a
screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most,
if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to
learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not
answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was
not a very comfortable situation.

Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned
that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and
that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated
soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in
that class complained about him.

Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in
which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach
is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn
yet.

Before you can run, you must first learn to walk.

Gene...

On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote:
Harsh! Do you really need to be so rude? It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs.

Don

-----Original Message----- From: Gene Warner
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 2:22 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be
a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you
can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal
is, you have no business being an instructor.

Gene...


On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote:
I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking. The enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want. Then there is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the teacher is not listening to his or her student. Indirectly related. A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask. Smile. A good teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or giving vague questions or answers. If a blind person asks where something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however not in a way that the blind person can understand.

*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 7, 2022 1:14 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

Totally agree! After I lost my vision, I signed up for a JAWS class
at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted
and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to learn?"

-
Well, then, you'd definitely not want me as an instructor, either. Most of my clients are adults who have lost their vision as adults. I am there to instruct on using a screen reader, but I find that allowing the client to choose what they want to do/learn while learning the screen reader is best left up to them. I can't know what programs a given client might want to use or, if trying to teach screen reader skills with a web browser, what it is they'd prefer to read, research, etc.

One of the things I have had the hardest time getting certain field counselors in the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired to understand is that you cannot teach how to use a screen reader as a stand alone thing. A screen reader has, as its reason for being, accessing something else. And I'd rather the client tell me, at least for the most part, what the "something elses" are in their lives.

I can't even begin to imagine what, "What do you want to learn?," even means when it comes to instructing on a screen reader since they don't function in isolation. I interpret it as, "What do you need or want to learn how to use with a screen reader?" And I want my students to tell me that, and I'll focus accordingly.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t.**
* ~ Lauren Bacall










Gerald Levy
 


Here we go again with member bashing and off topic chit chat.  Quite frankly, I'm sick of it.  If the invisible moderator is unwilling or unable to control this list, then he should relinquish moderation responsibilities to someone who will.  I don't tolerate this nonsense on the list I own and moderate, and neither should the moderator of this list, if there is one.


Gerald



On 8/7/2022 11:47 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was being honest because I've been there.

A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most, if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was not a very comfortable situation.

Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in that class complained about him.

Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn yet.

Before you can run, you must first learn to walk.

Gene...

On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote:
Harsh!  Do you really need to be so rude?  It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs.

Don

-----Original Message----- From: Gene Warner
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 2:22 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be
a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you
can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal
is, you have no business being an instructor.

Gene...


On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote:
I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking.  The enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want.  Then there is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the teacher is not listening to his or her student.  Indirectly related.  A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask.  Smile. A good teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or giving vague questions or answers.  If a blind person asks where something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however not in a way that the blind person can understand.

*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 7, 2022 1:14 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

    Totally agree! After I lost my vision, I signed up for a JAWS class
    at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted
    and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to learn?"

-
Well, then, you'd definitely not want me as an instructor, either.  Most of my clients are adults who have lost their vision as adults.  I am there to instruct on using a screen reader, but I find that allowing the client to choose what they want to do/learn while learning the screen reader is best left up to them.  I can't know what programs a given client might want to use or, if trying to teach screen reader skills with a web browser, what it is they'd prefer to read, research, etc.

One of the things I have had the hardest time getting certain field counselors in the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired to understand is that you cannot teach how to use a screen reader as a stand alone thing.  A screen reader has, as its reason for being, accessing something else.  And I'd rather the client tell me, at least for the most part, what the "something elses" are in their lives.

I can't even begin to imagine what, "What do you want to learn?," even means when it comes to instructing on a screen reader since they don't function in isolation.  I interpret it as, "What do you need or want to learn how to use with a screen reader?"  And I want my students to tell me that, and I'll focus accordingly.
-- 

Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.**
*     ~ Lauren Bacall


















Gene Warner
 

Who named you a list moderator? My history shows that I speak from experience and am not just saying things because I feel like it.

I will however rephrase what I said. Brian is probably a very good instructor if he is teaching intermediate to advanced students who already have a good grasp of the basics. But to expect students who don't know what they need to know to tell him what to teach them is not the right way to go about it. And that is all I am trying to say.

And now I think it is time I muted this thread since it contains some pretty hostile characters whom I'd rather not hear from.

Gene...

On 8/8/2022 1:05 AM, Don Walls wrote:
You evade my point.  I'm not interested in the history of your course experience.  I refer only to your rudeness.  Who are you to call Brian "a lousy instructor".  Shame on you.  Get over yourself and, if you can't express yourself in a more courteous way, get offf this list.
Don
-----Original Message----- From: Gene Warner
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 8:47 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:
You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was
being honest because I've been there.
A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a
screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most,
if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to
learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not
answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was
not a very comfortable situation.
Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned
that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and
that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated
soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in
that class complained about him.
Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in
which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach
is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn
yet.
Before you can run, you must first learn to walk.
Gene...
On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote:
Harsh!  Do you really need to be so rude?  It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs.

Don

-----Original Message----- From: Gene Warner
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 2:22 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be
a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you
can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal
is, you have no business being an instructor.

Gene...


On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote:
I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking.  The enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want.  Then there is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the teacher is not listening to his or her student.  Indirectly related. A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask.  Smile. A good teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or giving vague questions or answers.  If a blind person asks where something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however not in a way that the blind person can understand.

*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 7, 2022 1:14 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: Locking the mouse buttons:

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote:

    Totally agree! After I lost my vision, I signed up for a JAWS class
    at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted
    and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to learn?"

-
Well, then, you'd definitely not want me as an instructor, either. Most of my clients are adults who have lost their vision as adults. I am there to instruct on using a screen reader, but I find that allowing the client to choose what they want to do/learn while learning the screen reader is best left up to them.  I can't know what programs a given client might want to use or, if trying to teach screen reader skills with a web browser, what it is they'd prefer to read, research, etc.

One of the things I have had the hardest time getting certain field counselors in the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired to understand is that you cannot teach how to use a screen reader as a stand alone thing.  A screen reader has, as its reason for being, accessing something else.  And I'd rather the client tell me, at least for the most part, what the "something elses" are in their lives.

I can't even begin to imagine what, "What do you want to learn?," even means when it comes to instructing on a screen reader since they don't function in isolation.  I interpret it as, "What do you need or want to learn how to use with a screen reader?"  And I want my students to tell me that, and I'll focus accordingly.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.**
*     ~ Lauren Bacall










 

On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 07:14 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
That's not what this instructor did, he assumed that you already knew the basics even though the class was labeled as a beginning JAWS class.
-
And that you, or anyone, cannot conceive that the question, "What do you want to learn?," could (and I would presume, did) have an implied, "to work with using JAWS," as part of it shows a huge lack of imagination.

An ill-phrased question happens all the time.  A group of students coming back with, "What do you mean by that, exactly?," would likely have resulted in a clarification if the instructor was interested in instructing and decent at their job.

I took what you wrote, and exactly what you wrote, in message  , at face value.  And there is nothing in it to indicate that you made any effort, as an adult student, to seek any clarification.  You stated, and I quote: ", , ,I signed up for a JAWS class at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to learn?" I never went back to that class and learned JAWS on my own . . .," in that message. There's nothing there that even vaguely suggests that you did anything but pack up your things and go home. That gives you zero insight into how that class may have gone afterward and then you proceed to ascribe actual actions to an instructor whose class you did not complete.

Again:  No.  Hell No.

What you offered since, and well after that initial post, sheds more light.  But none of us here are mind readers and all we have to go on at a given point in time is what you have explicitly stated.  And you need to own responsibility for that.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete.  If you’re alive, it isn’t.
     ~ Lauren Bacall