Topics

moderated Itunes with Jaws 2021


Tony Sohl
 

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their itues software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by having aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the aria agent what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos into itues and then having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not make any changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most people wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should all write apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for that to hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.


Marty Hutchings
 

I am using iTunes latest version with JAWS 21 latest build and Windows 7. I have an iPod Shuffle 4th Generation, iPod Touch 6th Generation, iPhone SE and an iPhone 8. Although it is a bit cumbersome, like it has been said earlier in this thread, Tab And Shift Tab are your friend. The Alt Key will get you into the menus, although nothing is spoken until you hit the Down arrow after pressing Alt.
It does seem that Freedom Scientific could spend more time configuring JAWS to work with more commercial programs, or Apple could make their programs accessible, but there are some incredibly talented script writers out there that I am sure, could put something together that would make iTunes a little more screen reader friendly. How about it anyone?



Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with William Shakespeare who said: “Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020

-----Original Message-----
From: Tony Sohl
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 11:04 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their
itues software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by
having aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the
aria agent what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos
into itues and then having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not
make any changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most
people wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should
all write apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for
that to hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.


paul lemm
 

Hi,

I'm not sure why people are saying iTunes isn't accessible, although it may
not be the best layout for a screen reader, as far as I'm aware its fully
accessible. I don't use it much and maybe there are features I'm not using
which aren't accessible, but I can add music to the library, create
playlists, transfer music to my iphone and manage my iPhone from within
itunes all without any sighted assistance using only jaws. I know others
have already suggested using shift and tab to navigate, also F6 and shift F6
are two other really handy keystrokes which move you between sections.
Rather than having to cycle through each option as you do when tabbing, F6
quickly moves you from one section to another, meaning less key presses to
navigate between different sections of the program.

Paul Lemm

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Sohl
Sent: 19 February 2021 17:05
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their itues
software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by having
aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the aria agent
what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos into itues and then
having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not make any
changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most people
wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should all write
apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for that to
hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.


Richard Turner
 

It is accessible in the most minimalist definition of accessible.


Richard

Ralph's Observation: It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object<>to realize that you are in a hurry.


My web site, www.turner42.com

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of paul lemm via groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 3:22 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi,

I'm not sure why people are saying iTunes isn't accessible, although it may not be the best layout for a screen reader, as far as I'm aware its fully accessible. I don't use it much and maybe there are features I'm not using which aren't accessible, but I can add music to the library, create playlists, transfer music to my iphone and manage my iPhone from within itunes all without any sighted assistance using only jaws. I know others have already suggested using shift and tab to navigate, also F6 and shift F6 are two other really handy keystrokes which move you between sections.
Rather than having to cycle through each option as you do when tabbing, F6 quickly moves you from one section to another, meaning less key presses to navigate between different sections of the program.

Paul Lemm

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Sohl
Sent: 19 February 2021 17:05
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their itues software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by having aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the aria agent what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos into itues and then having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not make any changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most people wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should all write apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for that to hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.


Marty Hutchings
 

Hay, Thanks for the information about Shift F6 and F6. That should help a lot. Are there any other keyboard short cuts that I am not aware of?



Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with William Shakespeare who said: “Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020

-----Original Message-----
From: paul lemm via groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 5:21 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi,

I'm not sure why people are saying iTunes isn't accessible, although it may
not be the best layout for a screen reader, as far as I'm aware its fully
accessible. I don't use it much and maybe there are features I'm not using
which aren't accessible, but I can add music to the library, create
playlists, transfer music to my iphone and manage my iPhone from within
itunes all without any sighted assistance using only jaws. I know others
have already suggested using shift and tab to navigate, also F6 and shift F6
are two other really handy keystrokes which move you between sections.
Rather than having to cycle through each option as you do when tabbing, F6
quickly moves you from one section to another, meaning less key presses to
navigate between different sections of the program.

Paul Lemm

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tony Sohl
Sent: 19 February 2021 17:05
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their itues
software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by having
aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the aria agent
what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos into itues and then
having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not make any
changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most people
wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should all write
apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for that to
hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.


Udo Egner-Walter
 

Hi Marty,

You wrote:

It does seem that Freedom Scientific could spend more time configuring JAWS to work with more commercial programs, or Apple could make their programs accessible, but there are some incredibly talented script writers out there that I am sure, could put something together that would make iTunes a little more screen reader friendly. How about it anyone?
I understand your frustration very much as I sometimes feel very similar. But unfortunately the problem is much more complex than just writing a few scripts.

In principle, it works like this: The manufacturer of an operating system sets the guidelines by determining which interfaces are available for screen readers. The latest interface, for example, which is also used by all applications from the Microsoft Store, is called UIA. Windows does provide some support for standard controls out of the box, but this is not quite enough for the screen reader to be able to handle them. For example, it is up to the developer of applications to name the controls correctly, to provide help texts or to give unique names to controls so that they can be found on the screen via script.

And now imagine that an application uses its own components and these components do not support these technologies. For example, any application can draw a picture, put a frame around it and claim that is a button. But it is not. And if the corresponding interfaces are not integrated by the developer, it is not even possible to get informations such as the name.

Out of curiosity, I downloaded the iTunes application from the Microsoft Store yesterday. Some things could certainly be adapted and extended through scripts. But when I look at the table, for example, where all the albums and songs are displayed, no information is provided by the program itself. This information is visible on the screen for sighted people, but the screen reader cannot determine anything here. To my opinion either Freedom Scientific nor scripters out there couldn't do anything, perhaps implant some function to OCR the control or similar things. But these are hacks and tricks and don't ground on the accessibility framework from Microsoft and the correct implantation of this framework from the developer.

Kind regards
Udo



Am 19.02.2021 um 21:25 schrieb Marty Hutchings <mhutchings152730@gmail.com>:

I am using iTunes latest version with JAWS 21 latest build and Windows 7. I have an iPod Shuffle 4th Generation, iPod Touch 6th Generation, iPhone SE and an iPhone 8. Although it is a bit cumbersome, like it has been said earlier in this thread, Tab And Shift Tab are your friend. The Alt Key will get you into the menus, although nothing is spoken until you hit the Down arrow after pressing Alt.
It does seem that Freedom Scientific could spend more time configuring JAWS to work with more commercial programs, or Apple could make their programs accessible, but there are some incredibly talented script writers out there that I am sure, could put something together that would make iTunes a little more screen reader friendly. How about it anyone?



Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with William Shakespeare who said: “Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020
-----Original Message----- From: Tony Sohl
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 11:04 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their
itues software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by
having aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the
aria agent what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos
into itues and then having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not
make any changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most
people wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should
all write apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for
that to hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.










John Covici
 

I think that was not the correct place to download the itunes
applications, just go to apple.com and download the installer from
there and maybe you'd get a better idea.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:05:48 -0500,
Udo Egner-Walter via groups.io wrote:

Hi Marty,

You wrote:

It does seem that Freedom Scientific could spend more time configuring JAWS to work with more commercial programs, or Apple could make their programs accessible, but there are some incredibly talented script writers out there that I am sure, could put something together that would make iTunes a little more screen reader friendly. How about it anyone?
I understand your frustration very much as I sometimes feel very similar. But unfortunately the problem is much more complex than just writing a few scripts.

In principle, it works like this: The manufacturer of an operating system sets the guidelines by determining which interfaces are available for screen readers. The latest interface, for example, which is also used by all applications from the Microsoft Store, is called UIA. Windows does provide some support for standard controls out of the box, but this is not quite enough for the screen reader to be able to handle them. For example, it is up to the developer of applications to name the controls correctly, to provide help texts or to give unique names to controls so that they can be found on the screen via script.

And now imagine that an application uses its own components and these components do not support these technologies. For example, any application can draw a picture, put a frame around it and claim that is a button. But it is not. And if the corresponding interfaces are not integrated by the developer, it is not even possible to get informations such as the name.

Out of curiosity, I downloaded the iTunes application from the Microsoft Store yesterday. Some things could certainly be adapted and extended through scripts. But when I look at the table, for example, where all the albums and songs are displayed, no information is provided by the program itself. This information is visible on the screen for sighted people, but the screen reader cannot determine anything here. To my opinion either Freedom Scientific nor scripters out there couldn't do anything, perhaps implant some function to OCR the control or similar things. But these are hacks and tricks and don't ground on the accessibility framework from Microsoft and the correct implantation of this framework from the developer.

Kind regards
Udo



Am 19.02.2021 um 21:25 schrieb Marty Hutchings <mhutchings152730@gmail.com>:

I am using iTunes latest version with JAWS 21 latest build and Windows 7. I have an iPod Shuffle 4th Generation, iPod Touch 6th Generation, iPhone SE and an iPhone 8. Although it is a bit cumbersome, like it has been said earlier in this thread, Tab And Shift Tab are your friend. The Alt Key will get you into the menus, although nothing is spoken until you hit the Down arrow after pressing Alt.
It does seem that Freedom Scientific could spend more time configuring JAWS to work with more commercial programs, or Apple could make their programs accessible, but there are some incredibly talented script writers out there that I am sure, could put something together that would make iTunes a little more screen reader friendly. How about it anyone?



Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with William Shakespeare who said: “Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020
-----Original Message----- From: Tony Sohl
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 11:04 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their
itues software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by
having aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the
aria agent what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos
into itues and then having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not
make any changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most
people wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should
all write apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for
that to hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.














--
Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
How do
you spend it?

John Covici wb2una
covici@ccs.covici.com


Patrick Murphy
 

I downloaded it from apple, and still there were the same problems.
The ms app from the store was worse!!

Pat


Sent from my gmail account.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of John
Covici
Sent: Tuesday 23 February 2021 06:52
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Itunes with Jaws 2021

I think that was not the correct place to download the itunes
applications, just go to apple.com and download the installer from
there and maybe you'd get a better idea.

On Mon, 22 Feb 2021 11:05:48 -0500,
Udo Egner-Walter via groups.io wrote:

Hi Marty,

You wrote:

It does seem that Freedom Scientific could spend more time configuring
JAWS to work with more commercial programs, or Apple could make their
programs accessible, but there are some incredibly talented script writers
out there that I am sure, could put something together that would make
iTunes a little more screen reader friendly. How about it anyone?

I understand your frustration very much as I sometimes feel very similar.
But unfortunately the problem is much more complex than just writing a few
scripts.

In principle, it works like this: The manufacturer of an operating system
sets the guidelines by determining which interfaces are available for screen
readers. The latest interface, for example, which is also used by all
applications from the Microsoft Store, is called UIA. Windows does provide
some support for standard controls out of the box, but this is not quite
enough for the screen reader to be able to handle them. For example, it is
up to the developer of applications to name the controls correctly, to
provide help texts or to give unique names to controls so that they can be
found on the screen via script.

And now imagine that an application uses its own components and these
components do not support these technologies. For example, any application
can draw a picture, put a frame around it and claim that is a button. But it
is not. And if the corresponding interfaces are not integrated by the
developer, it is not even possible to get informations such as the name.

Out of curiosity, I downloaded the iTunes application from the Microsoft
Store yesterday. Some things could certainly be adapted and extended through
scripts. But when I look at the table, for example, where all the albums and
songs are displayed, no information is provided by the program itself. This
information is visible on the screen for sighted people, but the screen
reader cannot determine anything here. To my opinion either Freedom
Scientific nor scripters out there couldn't do anything, perhaps implant
some function to OCR the control or similar things. But these are hacks and
tricks and don't ground on the accessibility framework from Microsoft and
the correct implantation of this framework from the developer.

Kind regards
Udo



Am 19.02.2021 um 21:25 schrieb Marty Hutchings
<mhutchings152730@gmail.com>:

I am using iTunes latest version with JAWS 21 latest build and Windows
7. I have an iPod Shuffle 4th Generation, iPod Touch 6th Generation, iPhone
SE and an iPhone 8. Although it is a bit cumbersome, like it has been said
earlier in this thread, Tab And Shift Tab are your friend. The Alt Key will
get you into the menus, although nothing is spoken until you hit the Down
arrow after pressing Alt.
It does seem that Freedom Scientific could spend more time configuring
JAWS to work with more commercial programs, or Apple could make their
programs accessible, but there are some incredibly talented script writers
out there that I am sure, could put something together that would make
iTunes a little more screen reader friendly. How about it anyone?



Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with
William Shakespeare who said: "Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of
sound and fury, signifying nothing." From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020
-----Original Message----- From: Tony Sohl
Sent: Friday, February 19, 2021 11:04 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi yes you are all correct apple has made no attempts to make their
itues software accessible with JAWS!

One solution I would do if you have aira is have them help you by
having aira log into the computer with team viewer and then telling the
aria agent what you ant to do for example moving music from widnwos
into itues and then having them transfer it to your iphone or ipdad.

I know most of you want to do thsi independently but Apple will not
make any changes to their program.

Unfortunately, if you have a mac then it works properly, howveer most
people wnat a pc and they should make changes to. I wonder if we should
all write apple and demand they fix this.

I know the NFB sued apple for accessability and maybe it's time for
that to hapen again or the acb necds to put a fire uncder them!

I hope this heops.














--
Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
How do
you spend it?

John Covici wb2una
covici@ccs.covici.com


Udo Egner-Walter
 

Hi John, 

You wrote: 

I think that was not the correct place to download the itunes
applications, just go to apple.com and download the installer from there and maybe you'd get a better idea.

There are two versions of iTunes available. The newest one is the iTunes app you can download from Microsoft Store. You can still download the older one from the Apple homepage, that's right, but this version - at least as far as I know - will not developed further any more. So sooner or later you will be forced to change to the new app 

You've probably heard of Windows 10 S, the OS version allowing only installations of apps from Microsoft Store. In this article: 


you can read that Windows 10 S was leading Apple to develop the Microsoft Store version. By the way, the benefit of using the app from Microsoft Store is a clean install. If you install the old native app you will get services from Apple installed too, for example Bonjour. 

Because all of this I tried the Microsoft Store app first. 

Best wishes 
Udo 




Glenn / Lenny
 

How will screenreaders do this?
Will Jaws and NVDA have apps on the Microsoft store?
Another good reason to lean more towards Linux.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Tuesday, February 23, 2021 10:27 AM
Subject: Re: Itunes with Jaws 2021

Hi John, 

You wrote: 

I think that was not the correct place to download the itunes
applications, just go to apple.com and download the installer from there and maybe you'd get a better idea.

There are two versions of iTunes available. The newest one is the iTunes app you can download from Microsoft Store. You can still download the older one from the Apple homepage, that's right, but this version - at least as far as I know - will not developed further any more. So sooner or later you will be forced to change to the new app 

You've probably heard of Windows 10 S, the OS version allowing only installations of apps from Microsoft Store. In this article: 


you can read that Windows 10 S was leading Apple to develop the Microsoft Store version. By the way, the benefit of using the app from Microsoft Store is a clean install. If you install the old native app you will get services from Apple installed too, for example Bonjour. 

Because all of this I tried the Microsoft Store app first. 

Best wishes 
Udo 




John Covici
 

OK, I did not know about this. I will never be able to use that
version of windows.

On Tue, 23 Feb 2021 11:27:09 -0500,
Udo Egner-Walter via groups.io wrote:

[1 <text/plain; us-ascii (quoted-printable)>]
Hi John,

You wrote:

I think that was not the correct place to download the itunes
applications, just go to apple.com <http://apple.com/> and download the installer from there and maybe you'd get a better idea.
There are two versions of iTunes available. The newest one is the iTunes app you can download from Microsoft Store. You can still download the older one from the Apple homepage, that's right, but this version - at least as far as I know - will not developed further any more. So sooner or later you will be forced to change to the new app

You've probably heard of Windows 10 S, the OS version allowing only installations of apps from Microsoft Store. In this article:

https://blog.elcomsoft.com/2019/01/apple-itunes-standalone-vs-microsoft-store-edition/ <https://blog.elcomsoft.com/2019/01/apple-itunes-standalone-vs-microsoft-store-edition/>

you can read that Windows 10 S was leading Apple to develop the Microsoft Store version. By the way, the benefit of using the app from Microsoft Store is a clean install. If you install the old native app you will get services from Apple installed too, for example Bonjour.

Because all of this I tried the Microsoft Store app first.

Best wishes
Udo








[2 <text/html; us-ascii (quoted-printable)>]
--
Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is:
How do
you spend it?

John Covici wb2una
covici@ccs.covici.com


Udo Egner-Walter
 

Hi Glenn,

you wrote:

How will screenreaders do this?
Will Jaws and NVDA have apps on the Microsoft store?
No one can see into the future and see what's happening. But you shouldn't be fearful about this. In different post I could read that Microsoft Store isn't as successful as for example the Apple Store or Google Store. Vendors have to pay money to publish their apps in Microsoft Store and not all of them are willing to do this. And even if there's only one App Store to download apps you can be sure the screenreader companies will adapt to this situation. But this is far far away, at least to my opinion.

Further you wrote:

Another good reason to lean more towards Linux.
As far as I know it's hard to deal with Linux as a blind or visually impaired person. I won't say this is impossible but to my opinion you have to restrict yourself in using Linux. Maybe a Mac could be an alternative for you - I know a view people using it or using Windows and a Mac at the same time (me too).

Best wishes
Udo