moderated am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?


 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 06:27 PM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
I'll check up on opera mail and will recommend it if it is worth anything. 
-
Much appreciated.  I would love to have one more email client that I can recommend that has been determined to be accessible.  And those who use a screen reader as their primary access method are far more likely to hit glitches that I might not when I do cursory accessibility testing.

It's easy to determine when something is truly inaccessible in no time.  But it's a lot more difficult to determine just precisely how accessible something is using any "quick and dirty" testing techniques.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Van Lant, Robin
 

I need to get an exception for any software installation.  The time keeping system we use is Kronos.  We use Workday for HR and that presents it’s own challenges, but I have to access it much less often.

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Turner
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 11:13 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

 

WARNING: This email originated externally. Exercise caution. Think before clicking links or opening attachments.

 

Will you have to get an exception to try NVDA?

I think I’d go that route first.

Sounds like Workday.  What a pain.

 

 

 

Richard

"The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy has this to say on the subject of flying.

There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

--Douglas Adams, from Life, The Universe and Everything, p.59

 

Check out my web site at: www.turner42.com

 

*I’m not the card shark

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Van Lant, Robin via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 9:45 AM
To: JFW List (jfw@groups.io) <jfw@groups.io>
Subject: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

 

I feel like I’m losing my mind – maybe because I’m hitting my head on the wall.  On my work computer, my primary browser s Chrome.  I just got an upgrade to the chromium Edge, so I’ll try that soon, but assume it’s similar to Chrome.  I also still have IE 11.  I’ve noticed with two different web applications that JAWS voices the same page quite differently in when I use Chrome versus IE.  I feel stuck on doing what I need to do.  Here are a couple examples.  I’d really like to understand from some of you web developer/accessibility people what is going on.

 

Running Windows 10, JAWS 2020 (soon to be 2021). 

 

Our time keeping system is not great with JAWS.  The company says it works with NVDA & Firefox, neither of which I have on this laptop and if you use what they call listview instead of the more intuitive table view that  my colleagues use.  If I use IE 11, I can arrow down through this  listview and it reads a button for each date in my pay period, followed by a button where I can code whether I took a vacation day or such.  This format makes some sense.  If I click the button for pay code, it seems to open a small dialog  associated to the corresponding date where is shows each type of code an the number of hours, such as 8 hours of vacation. 

Because I’m having some issues with the menu to pick a code type, I thought I’d go try it in Chrome.  In Chrome, the same page reads very differently.  Arrowing down through the page only has one option for each day of the pay period and JAWS says its’ a menu.  I have yet to figure out how to access this menu, as all my normal tricks aren’t working.  I’ll likely call AIRA for visual help as a temporary work around.

 

On SharePoint sites we use internally, There are tabs at the top that bring up different ribbons of buttons for editing and working with pages.  In IE, these tabs JAWS sees as Links and will bring up in the links list, then I can use B to move to each button.  In Chrome, these tab labels do not come up as links and I have to find them in other ways that are more clunky and seems to trigger Forms mode. 

 

Is this expected?  I’m surprised that the same elements on a page would be rendered so differently in different browsers.  I’m really trying to embrace Chrome, but find some web coding more clunky and in the case of my time keeping system, not seemingly accessible.  Would Firefox really render this another way that could potentially work better with JAWS?  I’ll have to ask for an exception to get Firefox installed and not even sure if it will be an improvement. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Robin Van Lant, Sr. Program Manager - Sales Enablement

Key Equipment Finance & Key Institutional Bank

720-304-1060

 

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


Van Lant, Robin
 

I totally hear you, Brian, and that’s why I try not to use it, but there are times when it does work better.  Thankfully, we’re behind lots of firewalls here, so I think that helps with the security stuff, since I’m only doing internal web applications. 

 

I think I’ll see if I can get Firefox.  I had it at one point when we first switched to Workday and Workday accessibility said I needed to use Firefox over IE.  That was years ago and I lost firefox when I got a new computer and upgraded to Windows 10. 

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 11:16 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

 

WARNING: This email originated externally. Exercise caution. Think before clicking links or opening attachments.

 

Robin,

            The only broad insight I can offer is that Internet Explorer has not been being maintained, beyond security updates, for a very long time now.  It has not been keeping up with web coding changes, and there have been very many, since it went into what I call "walking dead" stage.  What you get when using IE can, in many instances, be significantly different than what you get in any currently maintained browser, and there are occasions where what you get may be "easier to use" and others where it's an absolute mess.  You really should not be using IE, ever, when security is important, e.g., online banking.  Here I'll insert my usual list of articles on why you should dump IE, immediately if not sooner, a number written by experts on IE:

Why You Should Dump Internet Explorer | Daniel Miessler        (Dec 2019)

The perils of using Internet Explorer as your default browser ...            (March 2019 – straight from the proverbial horse’s mouth)

Microsoft cybersecurity expert: Please, stop using Internet ...  (Feb 2019)

Microsoft security chief: IE is not a browser, so stop using ...     (Feb 2019)

Microsoft wants you to stop using Internet Explorer                    (Feb 2019)

12 reasons not to use Internet Explorer, ever | Computerworld  (June 2011 – Even more valid now)

And if you web search on “Why you should not use Internet Explorer” the list of returned results is long, and virtually unanimous in the expert (and non-expert) opinion that you should not.

Using any one of many currently supported browsers, Chrome, Firefox, Brave, Edge, Vivaldi, Waterfox, and the list goes on and on will also provide occasions where one "plays with" a given website better than another, or possibly multiple others, do.  I recently submitted a bug report to the folks at NVDA because I was getting wildly different behaviors between Firefox and Chrome, and one of the things I learned during the back and forth on this issue is that any screen reader often has to make guesses and decisions, the former if certain information is absent, and the latter if it's present, but could be ignored or processed in different ways.  'Tis the nature of the beasts, and the exact behaviors can vary depending on the specific beasts involved.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 06:43 PM, Van Lant, Robin wrote:
I need to get an exception for any software installation.
-
No surprise there, but it's worth making the request.  And play the reasonable accommodations angle to the hilt, emphasizing that it's a lot more expensive to get human sighted assistance in cases where a software alternative will make that largely or totally unnecessary.  Make it a win-win situation.

Are you able to use USB thumb drives?  If so, consider making a portable copy of NVDA for using in a pinch and/or, if you're using Windows 8.1 or 10, try invoking Narrator.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Van Lant, Robin
 

Thanks for the additional ideas, Brian.  I can plug a USB into my laptop, but it gets screened heavily.  I’ll see if I can figure out making a mobile NVDA to see if it will work.  Didn’t even think about Narrator. I’ll give that a try, too, especially now that I have the new Edge installed, which I’d imagine Narrator supports.

 

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 4:48 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

 

WARNING: This email originated externally. Exercise caution. Think before clicking links or opening attachments.

 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 06:43 PM, Van Lant, Robin wrote:

I need to get an exception for any software installation.

-
No surprise there, but it's worth making the request.  And play the reasonable accommodations angle to the hilt, emphasizing that it's a lot more expensive to get human sighted assistance in cases where a software alternative will make that largely or totally unnecessary.  Make it a win-win situation.

Are you able to use USB thumb drives?  If so, consider making a portable copy of NVDA for using in a pinch and/or, if you're using Windows 8.1 or 10, try invoking Narrator.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


Jaffar Sidek
 

Brian.  Opera mail is no longer being developed.  They ceased development about 6 years ago.  Cheers!

On 21/11/2020 7:30 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 06:27 PM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
I'll check up on opera mail and will recommend it if it is worth anything. 
-
Much appreciated.  I would love to have one more email client that I can recommend that has been determined to be accessible.  And those who use a screen reader as their primary access method are far more likely to hit glitches that I might not when I do cursory accessibility testing.

It's easy to determine when something is truly inaccessible in no time.  But it's a lot more difficult to determine just precisely how accessible something is using any "quick and dirty" testing techniques.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Ann Byrne
 

Yep. Browsers certainly do see different things. could you use NVDA from a flash drive instead of installing it on the computer???

Not that I'm a limit pusher ...

At 05:43 PM 11/20/2020, you wrote:
I need to get an exception for any software installation. The time keeping system we use is Kronos. We use Workday for HR and that presents it’s own challenges, but I have to access it much less often.



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Turner
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 11:13 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?


WARNING: This email originated externally. Exercise caution. Think before clicking links or opening attachments.

Will you have to get an exception to try NVDA?
I think I’d go that route first.
Sounds like Workday. What a pain.



Richard
"The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy has this to say on the subject of flying.
There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."
--Douglas Adams, from Life, The Universe and Everything, p.59

Check out my web site at: <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.turner42.com*2F&data=02*7C01*7C*7Ca7d9f9bf0b1d49f7f4e208d7a1e6e84d*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637155885424004847&sdata=GAS0RAqWfHdt9hOSucJNEOC55*2BzEXVlKjLICjbY0SJE*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!LteP8qmF6ok6!fQHZRpmWXiOTKIUSYiA5GaLJcoAHU7mzFBI3gZeZ2cLYQ-jA147w5zum9Qzo3ITfBas$>www.turner42.com

*I’m not the card shark

From: <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>main@jfw.groups.io <<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Van Lant, Robin via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 9:45 AM
To: JFW List (<mailto:jfw@groups.io>jfw@groups.io) <<mailto:jfw@groups.io>jfw@groups.io>
Subject: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

I feel like I’m losing my mind – maybe because I’m hitting my head on the wall. On my work computer, my primary browser s Chrome. I just got an upgrade to the chromium Edge, so I’ll try that soon, but assume it’s similar to Chrome. I also still have IE 11. I’ve noticed with two different web applications that JAWS voices the same page quite differently in when I use Chrome versus IE. I feel stuck on doing what I need to do. Here are a couple examples. I’d really like to understand from some of you web developer/accessibility people what is going on.

Running Windows 10, JAWS 2020 (soon to be 2021).

Our time keeping system is not great with JAWS. The company says it works with NVDA & Firefox, neither of which I have on this laptop and if you use what they call listview instead of the more intuitive table view that my colleagues use. If I use IE 11, I can arrow down through this listview and it reads a button for each date in my pay period, followed by a button where I can code whether I took a vacation day or such. This format makes some sense. If I click the button for pay code, it seems to open a small dialog associated to the corresponding date where is shows each type of code an the number of hours, such as 8 hours of vacation.
Because I’m having some issues with the menu to pick a code type, I thought I’d go try it in Chrome. In Chrome, the same page reads very differently. Arrowing down through the page only has one option for each day of the pay period and JAWS says its’ a menu. I have yet to figure out how to access this menu, as all my normal tricks aren’t working. I’ll likely call AIRA for visual help as a temporary work around.

On SharePoint sites we use internally, There are tabs at the top that bring up different ribbons of buttons for editing and working with pages. In IE, these tabs JAWS sees as Links and will bring up in the links list, then I can use B to move to each button. In Chrome, these tab labels do not come up as links and I have to find them in other ways that are more clunky and seems to trigger Forms mode.

Is this expected? I’m surprised that the same elements on a page would be rendered so differently in different browsers. I’m really trying to embrace Chrome, but find some web coding more clunky and in the case of my time keeping system, not seemingly accessible. Would Firefox really render this another way that could potentially work better with JAWS? I’ll have to ask for an exception to get Firefox installed and not even sure if it will be an improvement.

Thoughts?

Robin Van Lant, Sr. Program Manager - Sales Enablement
<https://urldefense.com/v3/__https:/nam11.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http*3A*2F*2Fwww.keyequipmentfinance.com*2F&data=04*7C01*7C*7C234fb7bc6c6a4227270708d88d7bf86b*7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa*7C1*7C0*7C637414910868461312*7CUnknown*7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0*3D*7C1000&sdata=wv0D0WfCZNab9dDGBqwvd4SO7FT9bStvUHXsywAbGtI*3D&reserved=0__;JSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJSUlJQ!!LteP8qmF6ok6!fQHZRpmWXiOTKIUSYiA5GaLJcoAHU7mzFBI3gZeZ2cLYQ-jA147w5zum9QzoEGTQMBc$>Key Equipment Finance & Key Institutional Bank
720-304-1060

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to <mailto:DNERequests@key.com>DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


 

Robin,

          If they're really fussy about USB drives, then ask you IT department to make a USB drive with a portable copy of NVDA on it for your use.  They can contact NVAccess, if needed, if they have any concerns about NVDA in your environment.  It's definitely used in business settings, and any screen reader user, no matter what their favorite and/or primary screen reader may be, needs to have a secondary that they can use in a pinch, and where only knowledge of the "most commonly used by me" commands is really needed.

           It's a blessing that pretty much all the screen readers have converged around a reasonably "standard" set of commands, and since JAWS came first it is the model that all others followed, and as far as command structure goes, emulated, sometimes very closely for many functions.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss