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moderated am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?


Van Lant, Robin
 

I feel like I’m losing my mind – maybe because I’m hitting my head on the wall.  On my work computer, my primary browser s Chrome.  I just got an upgrade to the chromium Edge, so I’ll try that soon, but assume it’s similar to Chrome.  I also still have IE 11.  I’ve noticed with two different web applications that JAWS voices the same page quite differently in when I use Chrome versus IE.  I feel stuck on doing what I need to do.  Here are a couple examples.  I’d really like to understand from some of you web developer/accessibility people what is going on.

 

Running Windows 10, JAWS 2020 (soon to be 2021). 

 

Our time keeping system is not great with JAWS.  The company says it works with NVDA & Firefox, neither of which I have on this laptop and if you use what they call listview instead of the more intuitive table view that  my colleagues use.  If I use IE 11, I can arrow down through this  listview and it reads a button for each date in my pay period, followed by a button where I can code whether I took a vacation day or such.  This format makes some sense.  If I click the button for pay code, it seems to open a small dialog  associated to the corresponding date where is shows each type of code an the number of hours, such as 8 hours of vacation. 

Because I’m having some issues with the menu to pick a code type, I thought I’d go try it in Chrome.  In Chrome, the same page reads very differently.  Arrowing down through the page only has one option for each day of the pay period and JAWS says its’ a menu.  I have yet to figure out how to access this menu, as all my normal tricks aren’t working.  I’ll likely call AIRA for visual help as a temporary work around.

 

On SharePoint sites we use internally, There are tabs at the top that bring up different ribbons of buttons for editing and working with pages.  In IE, these tabs JAWS sees as Links and will bring up in the links list, then I can use B to move to each button.  In Chrome, these tab labels do not come up as links and I have to find them in other ways that are more clunky and seems to trigger Forms mode. 

 

Is this expected?  I’m surprised that the same elements on a page would be rendered so differently in different browsers.  I’m really trying to embrace Chrome, but find some web coding more clunky and in the case of my time keeping system, not seemingly accessible.  Would Firefox really render this another way that could potentially work better with JAWS?  I’ll have to ask for an exception to get Firefox installed and not even sure if it will be an improvement. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Robin Van Lant, Sr. Program Manager - Sales Enablement

Key Equipment Finance & Key Institutional Bank

720-304-1060

 

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


Chris Hill
 

I'd try firefox.  There is only one way to know, but my guess is that it will likely be different than chrome or ie.  This is the state of the world now-a-days, different browsers work differently on complex pages.



On 11/20/2020 11:44, Van Lant, Robin via groups.io wrote:

I feel like I’m losing my mind – maybe because I’m hitting my head on the wall.  On my work computer, my primary browser s Chrome.  I just got an upgrade to the chromium Edge, so I’ll try that soon, but assume it’s similar to Chrome.  I also still have IE 11.  I’ve noticed with two different web applications that JAWS voices the same page quite differently in when I use Chrome versus IE.  I feel stuck on doing what I need to do.  Here are a couple examples.  I’d really like to understand from some of you web developer/accessibility people what is going on.

 

Running Windows 10, JAWS 2020 (soon to be 2021). 

 

Our time keeping system is not great with JAWS.  The company says it works with NVDA & Firefox, neither of which I have on this laptop and if you use what they call listview instead of the more intuitive table view that  my colleagues use.  If I use IE 11, I can arrow down through this  listview and it reads a button for each date in my pay period, followed by a button where I can code whether I took a vacation day or such.  This format makes some sense.  If I click the button for pay code, it seems to open a small dialog  associated to the corresponding date where is shows each type of code an the number of hours, such as 8 hours of vacation. 

Because I’m having some issues with the menu to pick a code type, I thought I’d go try it in Chrome.  In Chrome, the same page reads very differently.  Arrowing down through the page only has one option for each day of the pay period and JAWS says its’ a menu.  I have yet to figure out how to access this menu, as all my normal tricks aren’t working.  I’ll likely call AIRA for visual help as a temporary work around.

 

On SharePoint sites we use internally, There are tabs at the top that bring up different ribbons of buttons for editing and working with pages.  In IE, these tabs JAWS sees as Links and will bring up in the links list, then I can use B to move to each button.  In Chrome, these tab labels do not come up as links and I have to find them in other ways that are more clunky and seems to trigger Forms mode. 

 

Is this expected?  I’m surprised that the same elements on a page would be rendered so differently in different browsers.  I’m really trying to embrace Chrome, but find some web coding more clunky and in the case of my time keeping system, not seemingly accessible.  Would Firefox really render this another way that could potentially work better with JAWS?  I’ll have to ask for an exception to get Firefox installed and not even sure if it will be an improvement. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Robin Van Lant, Sr. Program Manager - Sales Enablement

Key Equipment Finance & Key Institutional Bank

720-304-1060

 

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


Richard Turner
 

Will you have to get an exception to try NVDA?

I think I’d go that route first.

Sounds like Workday.  What a pain.

 

 

 

Richard

"The Hitch Hiker's Guide to the Galaxy has this to say on the subject of flying.

There is an art, it says, or rather, a knack to flying. The knack lies in learning how to throw yourself at the ground and miss."

--Douglas Adams, from Life, The Universe and Everything, p.59

 

Check out my web site at: www.turner42.com

 

*I’m not the card shark

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Van Lant, Robin via groups.io
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2020 9:45 AM
To: JFW List (jfw@groups.io) <jfw@groups.io>
Subject: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

 

I feel like I’m losing my mind – maybe because I’m hitting my head on the wall.  On my work computer, my primary browser s Chrome.  I just got an upgrade to the chromium Edge, so I’ll try that soon, but assume it’s similar to Chrome.  I also still have IE 11.  I’ve noticed with two different web applications that JAWS voices the same page quite differently in when I use Chrome versus IE.  I feel stuck on doing what I need to do.  Here are a couple examples.  I’d really like to understand from some of you web developer/accessibility people what is going on.

 

Running Windows 10, JAWS 2020 (soon to be 2021). 

 

Our time keeping system is not great with JAWS.  The company says it works with NVDA & Firefox, neither of which I have on this laptop and if you use what they call listview instead of the more intuitive table view that  my colleagues use.  If I use IE 11, I can arrow down through this  listview and it reads a button for each date in my pay period, followed by a button where I can code whether I took a vacation day or such.  This format makes some sense.  If I click the button for pay code, it seems to open a small dialog  associated to the corresponding date where is shows each type of code an the number of hours, such as 8 hours of vacation. 

Because I’m having some issues with the menu to pick a code type, I thought I’d go try it in Chrome.  In Chrome, the same page reads very differently.  Arrowing down through the page only has one option for each day of the pay period and JAWS says its’ a menu.  I have yet to figure out how to access this menu, as all my normal tricks aren’t working.  I’ll likely call AIRA for visual help as a temporary work around.

 

On SharePoint sites we use internally, There are tabs at the top that bring up different ribbons of buttons for editing and working with pages.  In IE, these tabs JAWS sees as Links and will bring up in the links list, then I can use B to move to each button.  In Chrome, these tab labels do not come up as links and I have to find them in other ways that are more clunky and seems to trigger Forms mode. 

 

Is this expected?  I’m surprised that the same elements on a page would be rendered so differently in different browsers.  I’m really trying to embrace Chrome, but find some web coding more clunky and in the case of my time keeping system, not seemingly accessible.  Would Firefox really render this another way that could potentially work better with JAWS?  I’ll have to ask for an exception to get Firefox installed and not even sure if it will be an improvement. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Robin Van Lant, Sr. Program Manager - Sales Enablement

Key Equipment Finance & Key Institutional Bank

720-304-1060

 

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


 

Robin,

            The only broad insight I can offer is that Internet Explorer has not been being maintained, beyond security updates, for a very long time now.  It has not been keeping up with web coding changes, and there have been very many, since it went into what I call "walking dead" stage.  What you get when using IE can, in many instances, be significantly different than what you get in any currently maintained browser, and there are occasions where what you get may be "easier to use" and others where it's an absolute mess.  You really should not be using IE, ever, when security is important, e.g., online banking.  Here I'll insert my usual list of articles on why you should dump IE, immediately if not sooner, a number written by experts on IE:

Why You Should Dump Internet Explorer | Daniel Miessler        (Dec 2019)

The perils of using Internet Explorer as your default browser ...            (March 2019 – straight from the proverbial horse’s mouth)

Microsoft cybersecurity expert: Please, stop using Internet ...  (Feb 2019)

Microsoft security chief: IE is not a browser, so stop using ...     (Feb 2019)

Microsoft wants you to stop using Internet Explorer                    (Feb 2019)

12 reasons not to use Internet Explorer, ever | Computerworld  (June 2011 – Even more valid now)

And if you web search on “Why you should not use Internet Explorer” the list of returned results is long, and virtually unanimous in the expert (and non-expert) opinion that you should not.

Using any one of many currently supported browsers, Chrome, Firefox, Brave, Edge, Vivaldi, Waterfox, and the list goes on and on will also provide occasions where one "plays with" a given website better than another, or possibly multiple others, do.  I recently submitted a bug report to the folks at NVDA because I was getting wildly different behaviors between Firefox and Chrome, and one of the things I learned during the back and forth on this issue is that any screen reader often has to make guesses and decisions, the former if certain information is absent, and the latter if it's present, but could be ignored or processed in different ways.  'Tis the nature of the beasts, and the exact behaviors can vary depending on the specific beasts involved.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


David Csercsics
 

Am I to understand that chrome is different at rendering than chromium edge, even though they're the same engine? That's confusing? How many browsers should we have installed on devices, for the best experience?


 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:20 PM, David Csercsics wrote:
Am I to understand that chrome is different at rendering than chromium edge
-
Just one data point, but not yet in my experience.  That doesn't mean there could not come a time where this might occur if the Chromium code base were updated and those changes pulled in to one Chromium-based browser ahead of some other one.  Even though they use the same core code base, they don't all update to it in perfect synchrony.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 02:20 PM, David Csercsics wrote:
How many browsers should we have installed on devices, for the best experience?
-
This is entirely a personal choice.  I happen to have four Chromium-based browsers on my system, Chrome, Edge, Brave, and Vivaldi (the last of which I very, very seldom use) along with Firefox.

I'd say two browsers that use the same underlying technology is sufficient to allow you to do a quick and dirty check as to whether there is some browser-related difference between two built on the same code base.  And even that's only necessary if you really use one of them frequently.

I was once a Firefox only end user, and still use it extensively, but I've not installed any of its spin-offs so that I can check out whether a given peculiarity in Firefox might not occur in a spin off.

I tend to check across Firefox and any one of the Chromium-based browsers for behavior differences, or between two Chromium-based browsers, most frequently.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Randy Barnett
 

As always you are not getting that we often don't have a choice. Sometimes IE is the only way to do something we need to do. So in effect you are telling us to just not do it and rely on sighted help. Of courts we understand the risk and are capable of making that decision are selfs.

On 11/20/2020 10:16 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Robin,

            The only broad insight I can offer is that Internet Explorer has not been being maintained, beyond security updates, for a very long time now.  It has not been keeping up with web coding changes, and there have been very many, since it went into what I call "walking dead" stage.  What you get when using IE can, in many instances, be significantly different than what you get in any currently maintained browser, and there are occasions where what you get may be "easier to use" and others where it's an absolute mess.  You really should not be using IE, ever, when security is important, e.g., online banking.  Here I'll insert my usual list of articles on why you should dump IE, immediately if not sooner, a number written by experts on IE:

Why You Should Dump Internet Explorer | Daniel Miessler        (Dec 2019)

The perils of using Internet Explorer as your default browser ...            (March 2019 – straight from the proverbial horse’s mouth)

Microsoft cybersecurity expert: Please, stop using Internet ...  (Feb 2019)

Microsoft security chief: IE is not a browser, so stop using ...     (Feb 2019)

Microsoft wants you to stop using Internet Explorer                    (Feb 2019)

12 reasons not to use Internet Explorer, ever | Computerworld  (June 2011 – Even more valid now)

And if you web search on “Why you should not use Internet Explorer” the list of returned results is long, and virtually unanimous in the expert (and non-expert) opinion that you should not.

Using any one of many currently supported browsers, Chrome, Firefox, Brave, Edge, Vivaldi, Waterfox, and the list goes on and on will also provide occasions where one "plays with" a given website better than another, or possibly multiple others, do.  I recently submitted a bug report to the folks at NVDA because I was getting wildly different behaviors between Firefox and Chrome, and one of the things I learned during the back and forth on this issue is that any screen reader often has to make guesses and decisions, the former if certain information is absent, and the latter if it's present, but could be ignored or processed in different ways.  'Tis the nature of the beasts, and the exact behaviors can vary depending on the specific beasts involved.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Randy Barnett
 

Hi, One of the reasons IE will work when others won't is that Jaws has a lot of extra scripting for it. The Accessibility of IE was bad and all kinds of workarounds were created so that is why in some cases jaws will still work better in IE than Chromium based browsers. Which most all are except for Firefox. There are really just 3 types of browsers. IE which as Brian pointed out is outdated, Chromium based ones like Chrome and Edge and Firefox which uses it's own rendering engine.

On 11/20/2020 9:44 AM, Van Lant, Robin via groups.io wrote:

I feel like I’m losing my mind – maybe because I’m hitting my head on the wall.  On my work computer, my primary browser s Chrome.  I just got an upgrade to the chromium Edge, so I’ll try that soon, but assume it’s similar to Chrome.  I also still have IE 11.  I’ve noticed with two different web applications that JAWS voices the same page quite differently in when I use Chrome versus IE.  I feel stuck on doing what I need to do.  Here are a couple examples.  I’d really like to understand from some of you web developer/accessibility people what is going on.

 

Running Windows 10, JAWS 2020 (soon to be 2021). 

 

Our time keeping system is not great with JAWS.  The company says it works with NVDA & Firefox, neither of which I have on this laptop and if you use what they call listview instead of the more intuitive table view that  my colleagues use.  If I use IE 11, I can arrow down through this  listview and it reads a button for each date in my pay period, followed by a button where I can code whether I took a vacation day or such.  This format makes some sense.  If I click the button for pay code, it seems to open a small dialog  associated to the corresponding date where is shows each type of code an the number of hours, such as 8 hours of vacation. 

Because I’m having some issues with the menu to pick a code type, I thought I’d go try it in Chrome.  In Chrome, the same page reads very differently.  Arrowing down through the page only has one option for each day of the pay period and JAWS says its’ a menu.  I have yet to figure out how to access this menu, as all my normal tricks aren’t working.  I’ll likely call AIRA for visual help as a temporary work around.

 

On SharePoint sites we use internally, There are tabs at the top that bring up different ribbons of buttons for editing and working with pages.  In IE, these tabs JAWS sees as Links and will bring up in the links list, then I can use B to move to each button.  In Chrome, these tab labels do not come up as links and I have to find them in other ways that are more clunky and seems to trigger Forms mode. 

 

Is this expected?  I’m surprised that the same elements on a page would be rendered so differently in different browsers.  I’m really trying to embrace Chrome, but find some web coding more clunky and in the case of my time keeping system, not seemingly accessible.  Would Firefox really render this another way that could potentially work better with JAWS?  I’ll have to ask for an exception to get Firefox installed and not even sure if it will be an improvement. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Robin Van Lant, Sr. Program Manager - Sales Enablement

Key Equipment Finance & Key Institutional Bank

720-304-1060

 

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


Randy Barnett
 

As many as you find useful. I have several including IE witch I don't use unless all other options fail but that still happens on occasion

FireFox, IE, Edge, Chrome, waterfox, Brave and Vavaldi.

On 11/20/2020 11:20 AM, David Csercsics wrote:
Am I to understand that chrome is different at rendering than chromium edge, even though they're the same engine? That's confusing? How many browsers should we have installed on devices, for the best experience?







 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 03:21 PM, Randy Barnett wrote:
As always you are not getting that we often don't have a choice.
-
And, as always, you feel free to mischaracterize what I'm saying with your own spin.  Have at it.

Anyone with 2 firing neurons discourages the use of IE unless you absolutely, positively cannot use another option, and never where security is a concern.

It's got nothing to do with sighted help being needed.  And the fact that IE use, and heavy use of IE, still comes up all the time on blind-related technology groups means that word needs to get out, in no uncertain terms, that this is a very, very bad idea.  And it's a very, very bad idea if you're sighted or blind.  There are many things that are completely unconnected to visual status, and it's long past time you try to make the majority of what I say have a tie to something it does not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Randy Barnett
 

Resorting to insults... So anyone useing IE doesnt have 2 nuerons?The way you come across is not my problem it is yours... Enough said.

On 11/20/2020 2:21 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 03:21 PM, Randy Barnett wrote:
As always you are not getting that we often don't have a choice.
-
And, as always, you feel free to mischaracterize what I'm saying with your own spin.  Have at it.

Anyone with 2 firing neurons discourages the use of IE unless you absolutely, positively cannot use another option, and never where security is a concern.

It's got nothing to do with sighted help being needed.  And the fact that IE use, and heavy use of IE, still comes up all the time on blind-related technology groups means that word needs to get out, in no uncertain terms, that this is a very, very bad idea.  And it's a very, very bad idea if you're sighted or blind.  There are many things that are completely unconnected to visual status, and it's long past time you try to make the majority of what I say have a tie to something it does not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 05:24 PM, Randy Barnett wrote:
So anyone useing IE doesnt have 2 nuerons?
-
Again, learn to read.  Randy, your personal animus toward me colors absolutely every word I say, and adds things simply never said.

I quote: Anyone with 2 firing neurons discourages the use of IE unless you absolutely, positively cannot use another option, and never where security is a concern.

You see that phrase, "discourages the use of IE," it actually can't be ignored, nor does it mean "anyone using IE," or even imply it.

And your whine about having no other options is, pure and simple, BS in virtually all cases.  And where you can only use IE, you, any you, should be raising a huge stink with the site that's requiring it.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


JM Casey
 

Even with all this being true, though, I’m almost positive my old workplace was still using iE exclusively until the new Edge came out. Hopefully they’ve switched over now. But I guess some of their web applications were coded specifically for iE, so an option of using something else wasn’t even on the table. I stopped working there in 2017, but there was absolutely no sign of a change on the horizon at that time (and I was in the IT department). Experts were already telling everyone not to use IE then, and every serious web developer spurned it, yet I heard many accounts of other workplaces (especially in the public sector, I think) where no other browsers were allowed/in use. Crazy.

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: November 20, 2020 05:21 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 03:21 PM, Randy Barnett wrote:

As always you are not getting that we often don't have a choice.

-
And, as always, you feel free to mischaracterize what I'm saying with your own spin.  Have at it.

Anyone with 2 firing neurons discourages the use of IE unless you absolutely, positively cannot use another option, and never where security is a concern.

It's got nothing to do with sighted help being needed.  And the fact that IE use, and heavy use of IE, still comes up all the time on blind-related technology groups means that word needs to get out, in no uncertain terms, that this is a very, very bad idea.  And it's a very, very bad idea if you're sighted or blind.  There are many things that are completely unconnected to visual status, and it's long past time you try to make the majority of what I say have a tie to something it does not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Randy Barnett
 

A lot of large corporations use IE and DOS based programs bedcuase it is just too expensive to change them. You see so many blind people using IE because like mentioned they find it is the only option at times and calling that BS and putting it on us to force change is not helpful. Granted it is less frequent now but there is still a need for it at times. Condescension is not helpful either.

On 11/20/2020 2:29 PM, JM Casey wrote:

Even with all this being true, though, I’m almost positive my old workplace was still using iE exclusively until the new Edge came out. Hopefully they’ve switched over now. But I guess some of their web applications were coded specifically for iE, so an option of using something else wasn’t even on the table. I stopped working there in 2017, but there was absolutely no sign of a change on the horizon at that time (and I was in the IT department). Experts were already telling everyone not to use IE then, and every serious web developer spurned it, yet I heard many accounts of other workplaces (especially in the public sector, I think) where no other browsers were allowed/in use. Crazy.

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: November 20, 2020 05:21 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: am I losing my mind or is we coding really that different by browser?

 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 03:21 PM, Randy Barnett wrote:

As always you are not getting that we often don't have a choice.

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And, as always, you feel free to mischaracterize what I'm saying with your own spin.  Have at it.

Anyone with 2 firing neurons discourages the use of IE unless you absolutely, positively cannot use another option, and never where security is a concern.

It's got nothing to do with sighted help being needed.  And the fact that IE use, and heavy use of IE, still comes up all the time on blind-related technology groups means that word needs to get out, in no uncertain terms, that this is a very, very bad idea.  And it's a very, very bad idea if you're sighted or blind.  There are many things that are completely unconnected to visual status, and it's long past time you try to make the majority of what I say have a tie to something it does not.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 05:29 PM, JM Casey wrote:
I’m almost positive my old workplace was still using iE exclusively until the new Edge came out.
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Oh, that certainly did exist and still exists.  But nothing I've said should be interpreted to apply to instances where use of a given piece of software, whatever it may be, is forced by circumstances beyond a given individual's control.

They're about what you have the ability to choose to do, or not do.  Lots of us get stuck with what anyone would characterize as a suboptimal situation because we don't have any choice.

Your observation about the insanity of ignoring the warnings from Microsoft as an entity and security experts is correct.  Ignoring can be very accurately characterized as crazy.  But, again, if you've got no choice in your workplace or other setting you deal with what you're forced to deal with.  When that's not the case, follow the subject matter experts' recommendations.
 
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Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Jaffar Sidek
 

Hi.  I would highly recommend Opera as well.  It is my favorite browser because the built-in ad blocker keeps ads to a minimum.

On 21/11/2020 4:33 am, Randy Barnett wrote:
As many as you find useful. I have several including IE witch I don't use unless all other options fail but that still happens on occasion

FireFox, IE, Edge, Chrome, waterfox, Brave and Vavaldi.

On 11/20/2020 11:20 AM, David Csercsics wrote:
Am I to understand that chrome is different at rendering than chromium edge, even though they're the same engine? That's confusing? How many browsers should we have installed on devices, for the best experience?










 

On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 05:56 PM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
I would highly recommend Opera as well.  It is my favorite browser because the built-in ad blocker keeps ads to a minimum.
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So, based on this, am I safe in assuming that Opera is accessible these days?  It used to be one that I recommended, but at one point (and I can't remember when, it's a while back), it became more than a bit of a mess in terms of accessibility.  It would be great if it's one I can recommend to blind users again, as they had a great browser.

This also makes me wonder if Opera Mail may have become accessible?  They had a great email client that, the last time I tested it with a screen reader, was an accessibility nightmare.  If that's changed, it would be great, too, as it was a good client but inaccessible.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Jaffar Sidek
 

It very definitely is accessible.  It's main weakness though is that it doesn't deal well with JavaScript coded menus, but I can live with that for now, as i also have chrome to fall back on.  But I will be joining the Opera development team next year to help deal with this particular issue.  In my personal opinion, the Opera browser is not getting the attention it truly deserves.  Cheers!

On 21/11/2020 7:08 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 05:56 PM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
I would highly recommend Opera as well.  It is my favorite browser because the built-in ad blocker keeps ads to a minimum.
-
So, based on this, am I safe in assuming that Opera is accessible these days?  It used to be one that I recommended, but at one point (and I can't remember when, it's a while back), it became more than a bit of a mess in terms of accessibility.  It would be great if it's one I can recommend to blind users again, as they had a great browser.

This also makes me wonder if Opera Mail may have become accessible?  They had a great email client that, the last time I tested it with a screen reader, was an accessibility nightmare.  If that's changed, it would be great, too, as it was a good client but inaccessible.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


Jaffar Sidek
 

I'll check up on opera mail and will recommend it if it is worth anything.  Cheers!

On 21/11/2020 7:08 am, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Fri, Nov 20, 2020 at 05:56 PM, Jaffar Sidek wrote:
I would highly recommend Opera as well.  It is my favorite browser because the built-in ad blocker keeps ads to a minimum.
-
So, based on this, am I safe in assuming that Opera is accessible these days?  It used to be one that I recommended, but at one point (and I can't remember when, it's a while back), it became more than a bit of a mess in terms of accessibility.  It would be great if it's one I can recommend to blind users again, as they had a great browser.

This also makes me wonder if Opera Mail may have become accessible?  They had a great email client that, the last time I tested it with a screen reader, was an accessibility nightmare.  If that's changed, it would be great, too, as it was a good client but inaccessible.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 2004, Build 19041  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss