Moderated the find command in web browsers
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Madison Martin
Hi all,
Someone told me to use the find command to find a button on a website; what's the keystroke to do a find on a website? I know you use the letter b to get a list of buttons but this button isn't showing up so I figure that it can't hurt to try her suggestion as I may get lucky. Using latest versions of JAWS and Windows 11. Thanks Madison |
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Curtis Chong
Madison:
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What browser are you using? For most JAWS-accessible browsers (e.g., Chrome, Edge, Firefox, and Brave), you can invoke find with Control f. Then, you can repeat the find with F3. Kindly, Curtis Chong -----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Madison Martin Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2023 1:22 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: the find command in web browsers Hi all, Someone told me to use the find command to find a button on a website; what's the keystroke to do a find on a website? I know you use the letter b to get a list of buttons but this button isn't showing up so I figure that it can't hurt to try her suggestion as I may get lucky. Using latest versions of JAWS and Windows 11. Thanks Madison |
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JM Casey
The find command is great on webpages. Although of course you should still explore a page as much as you can if you want to get familiar witht eh layout, nothing beats just typing in a word or phrase and your cursor being put right there when you need it quickly.
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Ctrl-f will work in most cases, but maybe not in all browsers. Ctrl-f is actually the native browser command, normally, but jaws intercepts the keystroke and uses its own find facility instead, which you'd normally get to with insert-ctrl-f. Therefore, if you're using a less common browser that jaws doesn't know about, then use insert-ctrl-f instead. I think you're using Edge or something though if I remember right, so just ctrl-f as you normally would using the browser. -----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Madison Martin Sent: January 11, 2023 3:22 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: the find command in web browsers Hi all, Someone told me to use the find command to find a button on a website; what's the keystroke to do a find on a website? I know you use the letter b to get a list of buttons but this button isn't showing up so I figure that it can't hurt to try her suggestion as I may get lucky. Using latest versions of JAWS and Windows 11. Thanks Madison |
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On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 05:00 PM, JM Casey wrote:
Ctrl-f will work in most cases, but maybe not in all browsers. Ctrl-f is actually the native browser command, normally, but jaws intercepts the keystroke and uses its own find facility instead- CTRL + F is the invocation of the browser find in every browser I've ever worked with (including now-dead ones). I HATE when screen readers intercept the browser find and instead do a screen reader find. I'm a huge fan of both tools, and in this case I'd recommend using the screen reader find versus the browser find anyway, but you should know based on how you invoke which one you're getting. CTRL + F should be browser and INS + CTRL + F (or the laptop keyboard layout equivalent) the screen reader find, consistently. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13) It’s not lack of contact with the world off campus that leads to the liberal views common in academia — it’s being trained to think critically and practicing this craft daily as we look at the world around us that makes us the libs conservatives so dislike. ~ Eliot A. Brenowitz, Seattle; New York Times, Letters, Tales of Town and Gown: Is the Campus Isolated?, August 20, 2022 |
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Mike Pietruk
I cannot imagine not using the find command on a page which I routinely
visit or use. It's so convenient, gets me where I want to be and quickly gets me specifics. Yes, as someone else has mentioned, one should explore pages to gain a feel for them; but if you know what you are after and where it is, the find command is your friend. Madison, I would encourage your using find as a regular part of your web life, not just in the one instance you asked about. |
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JM Casey
Hey brian.
I agree with you, however, it seems that, as in the case with Adobe Reader/Acrobat’s native find command, it doesn’t seem to always work reliably with screen-readers for some reason, so the interception in this case might be good for some/most people.
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 11, 2023 5:05 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: the find command in web browsers
On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 05:00 PM, JM Casey wrote:
- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13) It’s not lack of contact with the world off campus that leads to the liberal views common in academia — it’s being trained to think critically and practicing this craft daily as we look at the world around us that makes us the libs conservatives so dislike. ~ Eliot A. Brenowitz, Seattle; New York Times, Letters, Tales of Town and Gown: Is the Campus Isolated?, August 20, 2022 |
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On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 05:15 PM, JM Casey wrote:
Adobe Reader/Acrobat’s native find command, it doesn’t seem to always work reliably with screen-readers for some reason, so the interception in this case might be good for some/most people.- I disagree, and only because the end user should be aware, at all times, of what the command the keystrokes their issuing invoke. They also need to be aware of when a given command that "works everywhere else" doesn't work in a specific program, and avoid its use there. Interception/substitution of the screen reader's judgment for the end users always ends up sewing confusion. And not just in this instance. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13) It’s not lack of contact with the world off campus that leads to the liberal views common in academia — it’s being trained to think critically and practicing this craft daily as we look at the world around us that makes us the libs conservatives so dislike. ~ Eliot A. Brenowitz, Seattle; New York Times, Letters, Tales of Town and Gown: Is the Campus Isolated?, August 20, 2022 |
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On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 05:09 PM, Mike Pietruk wrote:
I cannot imagine not using the find command on a page which I routinely visit or use.- First, overall I am entirely with you. To me, the screen reader find in particular is a gift from heaven. That being said, the key phrase in your statement is "page which I routinely visit or use." I'd even add to that a "new to you" page where you have a very good idea of the content that should be there. But for "new to you" pages where you really have very little idea of what might be there. Other exploration methods may be better if you're trying to get "the lay of the land." If, however, your goal is to check whether some specific word, phrase, control, etc., is present or absent, then the screen reader find is absolutely the very best way to rule that in, or out. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13) It’s not lack of contact with the world off campus that leads to the liberal views common in academia — it’s being trained to think critically and practicing this craft daily as we look at the world around us that makes us the libs conservatives so dislike. ~ Eliot A. Brenowitz, Seattle; New York Times, Letters, Tales of Town and Gown: Is the Campus Isolated?, August 20, 2022 |
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Adrian Spratt
Hi. This thread branched off into a discussion of the find command, but the original query is about a button that isn't showing up as a button via the b navigation command. Of course, if you know what the button is supposed to say, then the find command is the way to go. Otherwise, it's a question of getting to the area where the button is supposed to appear and determining what is going on. sometimes, what looks like a button to a sighted user is set up as what JAWS recognizes as a link. In that case, pressing insert-F7 and applying first-letter navigation might be the most efficient way of getting there. Sometimes the button doesn't appear right away, but after a pause and pressing insert-escape to refresh the page for JAWS, it suddenly pops up. Sometimes, sadly, the button just doesn't work with JAWS, and then it's time to complain to the website.
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-- My novel Caroline is now available in paperback, Kindle and audiobook versions and, for qualified readers in the US, at the National Library Service/BARD. Go to: https://adrianspratt.com/book/ -----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Pietruk Sent: Wednesday, January 11, 2023 5:09 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: the find command in web browsers I cannot imagine not using the find command on a page which I routinely visit or use. It's so convenient, gets me where I want to be and quickly gets me specifics. Yes, as someone else has mentioned, one should explore pages to gain a feel for them; but if you know what you are after and where it is, the find command is your friend. Madison, I would encourage your using find as a regular part of your web life, not just in the one instance you asked about. |
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Mike Pietruk
Adrian
Some very good suggestions and points. So much of the poor web use by blind users, in my opinion, can be traced to their lack of familiarity with what JAWS can do and its powerful tools. Granted, there are a lot of commands and keystrokes to be remembered and, at times, the web pages themselves present real problems not only for blind users but any user. I've been doing this for 40 or so years and am impressed by the powerful tools we have at our disposal. The challenge is learning all of their intracacies for, once uncovered, much of what we routinely label as unusable is very usable. It may not be perfect and may not necessarily meet official standards, but, once I understand what I am doing, what at first seemed an impossibility becomes usable more often than not. One needs a lot of patience at times too. |
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On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 07:07 PM, Mike Pietruk wrote:
The challenge is learning all of their intracacies for, once uncovered, much of what we routinely label as- This applies whether a screen reader is involved, or not, though the screen-reader layer is its own sphere of complexity. Way more than 90% of the assertions about "what you can't do" are, in actuality, something you can do if you know how. Asking whether something you currently can't do is something others can show you how to do is the safest bet. You've gotta know your tools, and I doubt that even the most skilled users here (and that does NOT include me) are each likely to know each and every feature of any complex piece of software, including JAWS, but as a collective there's probably someone who knows what it is you don't. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13) It’s not lack of contact with the world off campus that leads to the liberal views common in academia — it’s being trained to think critically and practicing this craft daily as we look at the world around us that makes us the libs conservatives so dislike. ~ Eliot A. Brenowitz, Seattle; New York Times, Letters, Tales of Town and Gown: Is the Campus Isolated?, August 20, 2022 |
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JM Casey
That’s a fair point. NVDA does not do this interception with the command at all, requiring you to use the nVDA key if you want to use its find feature.
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 11, 2023 5:43 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: the find command in web browsers
On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 05:15 PM, JM Casey wrote:
- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13) It’s not lack of contact with the world off campus that leads to the liberal views common in academia — it’s being trained to think critically and practicing this craft daily as we look at the world around us that makes us the libs conservatives so dislike. ~ Eliot A. Brenowitz, Seattle; New York Times, Letters, Tales of Town and Gown: Is the Campus Isolated?, August 20, 2022 |
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Mike Pietruk
It is small subtle enhancements in a commercial screen reader such as JAWS
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that makes it worth the price over something like NVDA. Both have their place; and it is good that JAWS has competition to keep it on its toes. Competition in the marketplace is a good think spurring development on. That's why our capitalist market environment is a good thing rather than the evil some portray it to be. On Wed, 11 Jan 2023, JM Casey wrote:
Thatÿÿs a fair point. NVDA does not do this interception with the command at all, requiring you to use the nVDA key if you want to use its find feature. |
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On Wed, Jan 11, 2023 at 08:06 PM, Mike Pietruk wrote:
It is small subtle enhancements in a commercial screen reader such as JAWS that makes it worth the price over something like NVDA.- Not that your opinion is not valid, because it is, but my experience with both of these screen readers suggests they are peers, with each doing certain things equally, and certain others better/worse or more/less easily than the other. I also think that NVDA's add-on range is better than JAWS script options are, but that is a matter of taste, really. It's competition that I believe finally forced Freedom Scientific/Vispero to go to the annual subscription model. -- Brian - Virginia, USA - Windows 11 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 22H2, Build 22621; Office 2016, Version 16.0.15726.20188, 32-bit; Android 12 (MIUI 13) It’s not lack of contact with the world off campus that leads to the liberal views common in academia — it’s being trained to think critically and practicing this craft daily as we look at the world around us that makes us the libs conservatives so dislike. ~ Eliot A. Brenowitz, Seattle; New York Times, Letters, Tales of Town and Gown: Is the Campus Isolated?, August 20, 2022 |
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