Date
1 - 20 of 33
Moderated Managing the cognitive load of listening
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Mike Pietruk
Glenn
This goes back 45-50 years ago, before political correction became a mantra of the era. When I complained to my dad as to how certain people dealt with me, his answer was a blunt honest one: "it's better to know how someone feels about you rather them hiding it." And, I grew to understand his point that if you have someone's true feelings, you can better respond. Like your comments, I suspect that a lot of the younger generation will not agree with me. |
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K0LNY
That is what I like about not working for the government anymore, where
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political correctness had to constantly be observed. Now if someone doesn't like what I say, well, it's just too bad, I won't have to worry about getting a poor yearly review over it. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Pietruk" <pietruk@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 2:14 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Glenn Sadly, we're living in an age where the "never" is no longer a "never" for so many things. I'm thankful that I'm retired and don't have to be in a work environment where you walk on eggshells in how you react and deal with people. Real human interaction is often impossible as, in return, others are careful in what they say and do with you. If someone really didn't like me, I'd rather I knew that as it makes responding far simpler. So, I'll bet that book narrators these days are given guidelines on many things no one, a generation or 2 back, would have thought of. |
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Mike Pietruk
Glenn
Sadly, we're living in an age where the "never" is no longer a "never" for so many things. I'm thankful that I'm retired and don't have to be in a work environment where you walk on eggshells in how you react and deal with people. Real human interaction is often impossible as, in return, others are careful in what they say and do with you. If someone really didn't like me, I'd rather I knew that as it makes responding far simpler. So, I'll bet that book narrators these days are given guidelines on many things no one, a generation or 2 back, would have thought of. |
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Lori Lynn
I've read several books recently that used multiple readers. Although this isn't always practical, it is interesting.
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Lori Lynn -----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:22 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Well what made me think of this, was some years back, a local news station switched back and forth between a guy and gal reading the news, and I noticed how it really kept my attention. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pietruk" <pietruk@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Glenn While you might wish that, when my sighted wife responded to my question about this, she thought I was off my rocker <grin>!! So, asking JAWS to deal with this in the way you suggest (which is a good idea) is beyond the practical technology at this moment at least. |
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K0LNY
Actually, I think back to when I read print.
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And a slightly different font for the genders would not have been distracting. But as mentioned already, it probably wouldn't be a font change, but some sort of markup that only would be there in electronic text. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Glenn / Lenny" <glenn@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening I guess if any publishers are concerned about that, it has never been enforced in the world of audio books. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mike Pietruk" <pietruk@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Glenn I see where you are coming from; but another problem also occurs to me. In today's politically correct world where gender identity issues rear its head, some authors and publishers rather not deal with the fallout such labeling might bring upon them. |
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K0LNY
I doubt that anyone would call out a reader on this in my opinion, I mean, a
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woman naturally has a higher pitch voice, and all though that isn't always the case, it almost always is. So for that reason, I doubt a reader of a book would have to stop doing that. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Pietruk" <pietruk@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:43 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening True, and I've heard this done quite effectively and I like it. However, in context of your question, this is a decision by the reader of the book and not based by author/publisher coding things. It is only time that some audio book narrator somewhere will be taken to task for their interpretation of things. |
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K0LNY
I guess if any publishers are concerned about that, it has never been
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enforced in the world of audio books. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Pietruk" <pietruk@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:40 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Glenn I see where you are coming from; but another problem also occurs to me. In today's politically correct world where gender identity issues rear its head, some authors and publishers rather not deal with the fallout such labeling might bring upon them. |
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Mike Pietruk
True, and I've heard this done quite effectively and I like it.
However, in context of your question, this is a decision by the reader of the book and not based by author/publisher coding things. It is only time that some audio book narrator somewhere will be taken to task for their interpretation of things. |
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Mike Pietruk
Glenn
I see where you are coming from; but another problem also occurs to me. In today's politically correct world where gender identity issues rear its head, some authors and publishers rather not deal with the fallout such labeling might bring upon them. |
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K0LNY
Actually, there is some president for this anyway,
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In many fiction audio books I have read, the male reader will often alter their voice to sound like the other gender, or sometimes a child. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Pietruk" <pietruk@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Glenn While you might wish that, when my sighted wife responded to my question about this, she thought I was off my rocker <grin>!! So, asking JAWS to deal with this in the way you suggest (which is a good idea) is beyond the practical technology at this moment at least. |
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K0LNY
Well what made me think of this, was some years back, a local news station
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switched back and forth between a guy and gal reading the news, and I noticed how it really kept my attention. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Mike Pietruk" <pietruk@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 12:01 PM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Glenn While you might wish that, when my sighted wife responded to my question about this, she thought I was off my rocker <grin>!! So, asking JAWS to deal with this in the way you suggest (which is a good idea) is beyond the practical technology at this moment at least. |
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Mike Pietruk
Glenn
While you might wish that, when my sighted wife responded to my question about this, she thought I was off my rocker <grin>!! So, asking JAWS to deal with this in the way you suggest (which is a good idea) is beyond the practical technology at this moment at least. |
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Soronel Haetir
Not sure about font but this could be achieved through markup, I
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simply doubt you are going to get many writers/publishers interested. Also, different fonts would be maddening to the sighted so is very likely a non-starter. On 9/20/22, Glenn / Lenny <glenn@...> wrote:
I always have wished story writers would use something to denote a male --
Soronel Haetir soronel.haetir@... |
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K0LNY
I always have wished story writers would use something to denote a male
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speaker and a female speaker, so we could set a synthesizer to read one sort of text with a female TTS and the other with a male TTS. I've wondered if they used a different font for the text of the dialog, if Jaws could be set to read one font with a different TTS than the other. Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: "Steve Nutt" <steve@...> To: <main@jfw.groups.io> Sent: Tuesday, September 20, 2022 8:33 AM Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Hi Mike, I'm with you, and I don't like different voices in any context, because they cause unnecessary pauses, albeit they are short ones. But as you say, it is completely personal this. All the best Steve -----Original Message----- From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Pietruk Sent: 17 September 2022 21:23 To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Mark This is really a very personal question; and it's not so much a JAWS question; but one using a screen reader in general. I take it that you are new at this; and the best suggestion I can make is play around and see what you are most comfortable with. Your use of the word cognative suggests to me that you are overthinking all of this. Some people like reading fast; others prefer regular speech rates. Some prefer one voice for everything; and others may assign a different voice for different things. In short, it takes time to become comfortable using a screen reader as a way to deal with the pc screen. Personally, I try not to overdo adjustments and customization -- but that's me. |
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Steve Nutt
Hi Mike,
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I'm with you, and I don't like different voices in any context, because they cause unnecessary pauses, albeit they are short ones. But as you say, it is completely personal this. All the best Steve -----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Pietruk Sent: 17 September 2022 21:23 To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Mark This is really a very personal question; and it's not so much a JAWS question; but one using a screen reader in general. I take it that you are new at this; and the best suggestion I can make is play around and see what you are most comfortable with. Your use of the word cognative suggests to me that you are overthinking all of this. Some people like reading fast; others prefer regular speech rates. Some prefer one voice for everything; and others may assign a different voice for different things. In short, it takes time to become comfortable using a screen reader as a way to deal with the pc screen. Personally, I try not to overdo adjustments and customization -- but that's me. |
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Mike Pietruk
Lori Lynn
This is a very much personal thing; and I agree totally as to how you now handle the use of the dictionary. And I pretty much do as you have done for the last couple of decades. It's greatly simplified my pc life. |
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Soronel Haetir
My dictionary entries are pretty stable at this point and nearly all
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computer programming related, turning almost words like "strcpy" into "stir copy" and "strncpy' into "stir n copy', without the dictionary replacements they sound maddeningly similar. Been using jaws for about 15 years. On 9/17/22, Mike Pietruk <pietruk@...> wrote:
Soronel --
Soronel Haetir soronel.haetir@... |
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Lori Lynn
I use to be one of those people who obsessed about mispronounced words. I added several hundred words to the JAWS dictionary. The result was crashing my computer. After multiple fixes and replaced hard drives I made the decision that I could live with the way JAWS pronounces words. I've been told many times over the last 22 years that my problem won't happen again. Sorry, but I'm sticking with my decision to avoid the dictionary at all costs.
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Lori Lynn -----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adrian Spratt Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 9:39 AM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening Mike, This is a reasonable approach to the pronunciation conundrum. Still, I think some cautions are in order. If we hear a word or someone's name for the first time while using JAWS and JAWS mispronounces it, we may carry that mispronunciation in our heads. If we later got into a conversation and mispronounced that word or name, we could feel foolish on being corrected. I wish I could come up with better examples, but the one that comes to mind is the name Peter Davison, whose obituary appeared the other day. I'd known nothing about him, but he was a George Orwell scholar, which is why the obit interested me. My synthesizer pronounces the man's name as Davveson, which is surely wrong, but I didn't realize that until I checked the spelling. I'm sure the correct pronunciation is more like Davidson, except without the second d. An analogy might be to braille, where it used to be correct to run the symbols for the words "for" and "the" together as if they were one word. It saved space. However, as the revised code has since recognized, this practice caused some blind children to think the two words were also joined together in print. It's a simple, fast task to add correct pronunciations to the JAWS dictionary. Only occasionally do I have to play with possibilities to arrive at a good pronunciation, such as by capitalizing the first letter of a second syllable, etc. For me, the problem with the JAWS dictionary is what Soronel mentioned: its limited capacity. In my case, too many entries somehow interferes with how JAWS reads text on webpages in "say all." Vispero's tech support has verified the problem on my system, but no one else seems to be reporting it. either way, there is a limit. As JAWS users, we process information in some ways that are different from the ways sighted people do. I think it's important to keep it in mind. The JAWS dictionary can help make sure that we communicate fluently and comfortably in the mainstream. -- My novel Caroline is now available in paperback, Kindle and audiobook versions and, for qualified readers in the US, at the National Library Service/BARD. Go to: https://nam12.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fadrianspratt.com%2Fbook%2F&;data=05%7C01%7C%7C78a0a72b3e9b4549945e08da998392e3%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637991087625157771%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=kyqtw4QI7R9yRxvrAn%2FNWqgHtgCqLZIj8SgzG4d4E0M%3D&reserved=0 -----Original Message----- From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Pietruk Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 8:32 AM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening John You say it nicely. Let me add this: When I started with screen readers in the 1980s, I was picky to the point that names and places and words had to be pronounced correctly. Soon, I began to realize that it's not important how a name is pronounced but do I recognize what the speech synthesizer is saying. If I understand it, it doesn't need correction. And Jaws makes it easy to check spellings by letter if needed. And if I need to learn the spelling of something for later use, I can always copy it to the clipboard for later use and review. |
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Adrian Spratt
Mike,
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This is a reasonable approach to the pronunciation conundrum. Still, I think some cautions are in order. If we hear a word or someone's name for the first time while using JAWS and JAWS mispronounces it, we may carry that mispronunciation in our heads. If we later got into a conversation and mispronounced that word or name, we could feel foolish on being corrected. I wish I could come up with better examples, but the one that comes to mind is the name Peter Davison, whose obituary appeared the other day. I'd known nothing about him, but he was a George Orwell scholar, which is why the obit interested me. My synthesizer pronounces the man's name as Davveson, which is surely wrong, but I didn't realize that until I checked the spelling. I'm sure the correct pronunciation is more like Davidson, except without the second d. An analogy might be to braille, where it used to be correct to run the symbols for the words "for" and "the" together as if they were one word. It saved space. However, as the revised code has since recognized, this practice caused some blind children to think the two words were also joined together in print. It's a simple, fast task to add correct pronunciations to the JAWS dictionary. Only occasionally do I have to play with possibilities to arrive at a good pronunciation, such as by capitalizing the first letter of a second syllable, etc. For me, the problem with the JAWS dictionary is what Soronel mentioned: its limited capacity. In my case, too many entries somehow interferes with how JAWS reads text on webpages in "say all." Vispero's tech support has verified the problem on my system, but no one else seems to be reporting it. either way, there is a limit. As JAWS users, we process information in some ways that are different from the ways sighted people do. I think it's important to keep it in mind. The JAWS dictionary can help make sure that we communicate fluently and comfortably in the mainstream. -- My novel Caroline is now available in paperback, Kindle and audiobook versions and, for qualified readers in the US, at the National Library Service/BARD. Go to: https://adrianspratt.com/book/ -----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mike Pietruk Sent: Sunday, September 18, 2022 8:32 AM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Managing the cognitive load of listening John You say it nicely. Let me add this: When I started with screen readers in the 1980s, I was picky to the point that names and places and words had to be pronounced correctly. Soon, I began to realize that it's not important how a name is pronounced but do I recognize what the speech synthesizer is saying. If I understand it, it doesn't need correction. And Jaws makes it easy to check spellings by letter if needed. And if I need to learn the spelling of something for later use, I can always copy it to the clipboard for later use and review. |
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Mike Pietruk
John
You say it nicely. Let me add this: When I started with screen readers in the 1980s, I was picky to the point that names and places and words had to be pronounced correctly. Soon, I began to realize that it's not important how a name is pronounced but do I recognize what the speech synthesizer is saying. If I understand it, it doesn't need correction. And Jaws makes it easy to check spellings by letter if needed. And if I need to learn the spelling of something for later use, I can always copy it to the clipboard for later use and review. |
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