Moderated Teaching the use of screen readers:
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K0LNY
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I'll have to check that out.
I used to use a Ubuntu based distro called
XpLike
It even used windows XP startup
sounds.
Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2022 10:10 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers: -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044 Here
is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re
alive, it isn’t. |
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By the way, if anyone happens to be looking for a Linux distro that has as its purpose (or a primary one of its purposes) emulating the Windows environment as closely as possible, you owe it to yourself to have a look at WindowsFX.
-- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Karen Reynolds
I can see that this would help.
Karen
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 10:25 AM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
There are three main ones I remap on any Linux I install, and those are, I change ctrl alt D to windows M And I change alt F2 to windows R and I change alt F1 to windows space bar. This makes it easier to switch between operating systems. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Karen Reynolds Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2022 9:19 AM Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
Actually, because Linux is open source, and people from all over the world are working on it all the time, it is often more secure. Windows and Apple only have their own teams working on theirs. And anyone who wants to make a buck pointing out problems.
Here is a helpful link, and I believe you can sign up to get notices.
https://www.cisa.gov/uscert/ncas/alerts
I was one of those who was originally taught Dos and then Windows. I learned some of those shortcut keys, but when I learned Jaws, well, it was from the tapes, and they didn’t seem to distinguish between what was Jaws and what was Windows. I’m relearning some of that now. It is interesting to show my husband a shortcut key and have him say what it does on Linux. Sometimes it is the same, sometimes different.
Karen
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sean Murphy
No operating system is safe from hackers. If anyone says otherwise they kidding themselves. Lennox has the operating system freely available in source code. Once you have access to that code you can easily find security availabilities if you look for them. Likewise having a source code available makes it easier to close out security vulnerabilities. Windows and Mac the source code is not as freely available. This makes it harder but not impossible.
Getting back on the topic learning Windows, screen reader commands and anything else you can learn from the application and know in the differences for keyboard commands makes your usage of any application more powerful. It’s the only way you should be teaching someone.
My experience is the part
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K0LNY
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There are three main ones I remap on any Linux I
install, and those are,
I change ctrl alt D to windows M
And I change alt F2 to windows R
and I change alt F1 to windows space
bar.
This makes it easier to switch between operating
systems.
Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: Karen Reynolds
Sent: Tuesday, August 09, 2022 9:19 AM
Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers: Actually, because Linux is open source, and people from all over the world are working on it all the time, it is often more secure. Windows and Apple only have their own teams working on theirs. And anyone who wants to make a buck pointing out problems.
Here is a helpful link, and I believe you can sign up to get notices.
https://www.cisa.gov/uscert/ncas/alerts
I was one of those who was originally taught Dos and then Windows. I learned some of those shortcut keys, but when I learned Jaws, well, it was from the tapes, and they didn’t seem to distinguish between what was Jaws and what was Windows. I’m relearning some of that now. It is interesting to show my husband a shortcut key and have him say what it does on Linux. Sometimes it is the same, sometimes different.
Karen
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
On Behalf Of Sean Murphy
No operating system is safe from hackers. If anyone says otherwise they kidding themselves. Lennox has the operating system freely available in source code. Once you have access to that code you can easily find security availabilities if you look for them. Likewise having a source code available makes it easier to close out security vulnerabilities. Windows and Mac the source code is not as freely available. This makes it harder but not impossible.
Getting back on the topic learning Windows, screen reader commands and anything else you can learn from the application and know in the differences for keyboard commands makes your usage of any application more powerful. It’s the only way you should be teaching someone.
My experience is the part
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Karen Reynolds
Actually, because Linux is open source, and people from all over the world are working on it all the time, it is often more secure. Windows and Apple only have their own teams working on theirs. And anyone who wants to make a buck pointing out problems.
Here is a helpful link, and I believe you can sign up to get notices.
https://www.cisa.gov/uscert/ncas/alerts
I was one of those who was originally taught Dos and then Windows. I learned some of those shortcut keys, but when I learned Jaws, well, it was from the tapes, and they didn’t seem to distinguish between what was Jaws and what was Windows. I’m relearning some of that now. It is interesting to show my husband a shortcut key and have him say what it does on Linux. Sometimes it is the same, sometimes different.
Karen
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sean Murphy
Sent: Tuesday, August 9, 2022 8:04 AM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
No operating system is safe from hackers. If anyone says otherwise they kidding themselves. Lennox has the operating system freely available in source code. Once you have access to that code you can easily find security availabilities if you look for them. Likewise having a source code available makes it easier to close out security vulnerabilities. Windows and Mac the source code is not as freely available. This makes it harder but not impossible.
Getting back on the topic learning Windows, screen reader commands and anything else you can learn from the application and know in the differences for keyboard commands makes your usage of any application more powerful. It’s the only way you should be teaching someone.
My experience is the part
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Sean Murphy
No operating system is safe from hackers. If anyone says otherwise they kidding themselves. Lennox has the operating system freely available in source code. Once you have access to that code you can easily find security availabilities if you look for them. Likewise having a source code available makes it easier to close out security vulnerabilities. Windows and Mac the source code is not as freely available. This makes it harder but not impossible.
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Getting back on the topic learning Windows, screen reader commands and anything else you can learn from the application and know in the differences for keyboard commands makes your usage of any application more powerful. It’s the only way you should be teaching someone. My experience is the part On 9 Aug 2022, at 1:32 pm, Karen Reynolds <karenreynolds2061@...> wrote:
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Karen Reynolds
It is practically daily. My husband uses it and does updates almost every day.
Karen
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
Sent: Monday, August 8, 2022 1:49 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
Are you kidding? Linux typically is more secure than any windows. It is always being updated. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Madison Martin Sent: Monday, August 08, 2022 12:47 PM Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
Oh I thought Linux wasn’t being updated anymore…
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
I'd sure like to see Freedom Scientific make a screenreader for Linux. Linux uses almost all the native keyboard commands that windows does. But the screenreader Orca is more like using NVDA or WindowEyes. They could call it JFL. I suggested this to them recently, but I never heard back. If they could make a Linux screenreader that is close to being as robust as JFW, I think they would grab a big market. I think more windows users would move to Linux if the screenreader was more like JFW. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Vogel Sent: Monday, August 08, 2022 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
Mike, Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 01:49 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
- Indeed. But those who believe in "Fortress Linux" are deluding themselves. As it has taken the data center world by storm, a corresponding cadre of hackers has arisen that targets it, and it can be breached. I'm not arguing that is is not a secure OS, because it is, but it is not impenetrable, and there are many who seem to believe the myth that it is. And, when it comes to OS security in general, what gets hacked is what is: 1. Most ubiquitous. 2. Has the biggest payoff for those targeting it. That's why Windows (and 10 and 11 are light years more secure than earlier versions) will always be right at the top of the list for trying to compromise. Once you figure out a way in to what you want, even if it's detected and patched/blocked in a very short time, you have millions upon millions of potential targets in that short time before that happens. The "haul" from such attacks can be huge in a matter of minutes, let alone hours. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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On Mon, Aug 8, 2022 at 01:42 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
- And I don't, and not just in regard to screen readers. Linux has been around for decades. I was playing with Linux when it, like the Unix of the time, was command line only. There have been GUI versions of Linux for a very long time now as well as lots of common software like Office Suites and web browsers that run under it. Linux has taken the world of data centers by storm. But even most of the tech geeks who are using it on a daily basis in those settings are not using it as their primary daily driver at home. There has been way, way more than adequate time for a very mature, and user friendly, set of Linux distros and their GUIs to have made inroads in the consumer market if they were going to do so. Decades, plural, now. Linux is almost certain to remain a niche. It's been given every possible chance to increase its market share of home and office use, and it's just not happened. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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K0LNY
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Are you kidding?
Linux typically is more secure than any
windows.
It is always being updated.
Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: Madison Martin
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2022 12:47 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers: Oh I thought Linux wasn’t being updated anymore…
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
I'd sure like to see Freedom Scientific make a screenreader for Linux. Linux uses almost all the native keyboard commands that windows does. But the screenreader Orca is more like using NVDA or WindowEyes. They could call it JFL. I suggested this to them recently, but I never heard back. If they could make a Linux screenreader that is close to being as robust as JFW, I think they would grab a big market. I think more windows users would move to Linux if the screenreader was more like JFW. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Vogel Sent: Monday, August 08, 2022 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
Mike, Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here
is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re
alive, it isn’t. |
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Madison Martin
Oh I thought Linux wasn’t being updated anymore…
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
Sent: August 8, 2022 12:42 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
I'd sure like to see Freedom Scientific make a screenreader for Linux. Linux uses almost all the native keyboard commands that windows does. But the screenreader Orca is more like using NVDA or WindowEyes. They could call it JFL. I suggested this to them recently, but I never heard back. If they could make a Linux screenreader that is close to being as robust as JFW, I think they would grab a big market. I think more windows users would move to Linux if the screenreader was more like JFW. Glenn ----- Original Message ----- From: Brian Vogel Sent: Monday, August 08, 2022 12:32 PM Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers:
Mike, Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Gene Warner
In this regard I count myself lucky I had such an idiot for a screen reader instructor that I ended up learning JAWS on my own. The big advantage was that I always knew whose key strokes I was using, JAWS, the program', or Windows.
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And you are right that where there are key strokes in the screen reader and Windows that do the same thing, the Windows key strokes are better because they work everywhere. Gene... Gene... On 8/8/2022 1:20 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Mike, |
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K0LNY
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I'd sure like to see Freedom Scientific make a
screenreader for Linux.
Linux uses almost all the native keyboard commands
that windows does.
But the screenreader Orca is more like using NVDA
or WindowEyes.
They could call it JFL.
I suggested this to them recently, but I never
heard back.
If they could make a Linux screenreader that is
close to being as robust as JFW, I think they would grab a big
market.
I think more windows users would move to Linux if
the screenreader was more like JFW.
Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 08, 2022 12:32 PM
Subject: Re: Teaching the use of screen readers: Another thing, and the title of this very topic points it out, is that you can't really teach "the screen reader" as an independent entity. Screen readers, all of them, have as their sole reason for being giving the user the ability to access other things they want to use. If I am not running a web browser, or word processor, or some other program that the screen reader is being used to access I can't really teach anything whatsoever useful about how one actually uses a screen reader. The above being the case, and since the screen reader itself along with the application(s) are "soaking in" Windows, you're never able to deal with "pure" commands related to each, in isolation, as part of the natural flow of teaching how all of these things work in consort with each other. It's funny how I have to disabuse many of the very idea that you can teach a screen reader in isolation. You just can't. It's an accessibility tool to other things, and as an independent entity, with nothing to access, is useless/has no reason for being. It's a means to an end, not an end in and of itself, and you learn how to use that means by working on specific ends over time. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044 Here
is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re
alive, it isn’t. |
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Mike,
Another thing, and the title of this very topic points it out, is that you can't really teach "the screen reader" as an independent entity. Screen readers, all of them, have as their sole reason for being giving the user the ability to access other things they want to use. If I am not running a web browser, or word processor, or some other program that the screen reader is being used to access I can't really teach anything whatsoever useful about how one actually uses a screen reader. The above being the case, and since the screen reader itself along with the application(s) are "soaking in" Windows, you're never able to deal with "pure" commands related to each, in isolation, as part of the natural flow of teaching how all of these things work in consort with each other. It's funny how I have to disabuse many of the very idea that you can teach a screen reader in isolation. You just can't. It's an accessibility tool to other things, and as an independent entity, with nothing to access, is useless/has no reason for being. It's a means to an end, not an end in and of itself, and you learn how to use that means by working on specific ends over time. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Mike,
While not discounting your theory, having been around "the screen reader game" for well over a decade now I still see more often than not a complete lack of discussing "who controls what" as a standard part of AT education in general, but for screen reader training in particular. And what's even more peculiar is that when I work with the formerly sighted, most of them know, somehow, who's controlling what when working via point and click. Even I know/knew that without a lot of formal training, but much of that is because the visuals involved in Windows (or any GUI) are telling you all sorts of things you are not even consciously aware that they are communicating. When those cues are either taken away, or were never present to begin with, there's a certain added amount of abstraction involved. But because knowing "who controls what" is so important I find myself on my own little soap box about how sadly lacking formal instruction about this is. Even just occasionally repeating what I told Mark about how one can really pretty easily reason out "who controls what" absent any deep knowledge at the outset would be immensely helpful. Not just for screen reader instruction, but in general, we need to be teaching students critical thinking skills, and a basic foundation of those is using logic and reason to clear ambiguity when you have no other easy way of doing it. The thought exercise, and ability to construct your own, as needed, is just something I could never have lived without. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Mike Pietruk
Brian
In the days when there was true competition in the screen reader market, it was to the advantage of the screen reader companies to have average Joe and Mary customers believe that all commands were screen reader specific. So if Uncle Bob or Aunt Mary thought of switching screen readers, they might think twice or thrice about all the new stuff they would have to learn and master. That might give them the idea to stick with what they knew rather, then in their minds, to learn everything again. More advanced users understood the difference and, hence, if they tutored others would explain why it was so important to understand the differences. |
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On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 11:53 PM, Mark wrote:
But is there a user-friendly way for JAWS users to independently determine the level of a given keystroke?- Not exactly, but you can ferret it out relatively easily. Screen reader commands (ignoring quick navigation shortcuts in web browsing and the like) always involve the use of the screen reader's modifier key, whatever that may be for the desktop or laptop keyboard layout. Distinguishing the others is more of a thought exercise. If you use the same keyboard shortcut literally everywhere, including within an application program but also outside of it when working with Windows, it is virtually certain to be a Windows keyboard shortcut. Selection, Cut, Copy, and Paste functions, even when you're doing them in an application program, are handled by system calls to Windows to actually perform the action. Cut is CTRL + X everywhere, Copy is CTRL + C everywhere, and paste is CTRL + V everywhere. These are Windows keyboard shortcuts. Contrast that with, say, CTRL + D to bring up the Font Dialog in MS-Word. If you hit CTRL + D when focus is on the desktop, it does nothing. If you hit CTRL + D when you're in Notepad, it does nothing (other than give you an error tone). Since there are just so darned many keyboard shortcuts that are specific to various application programs, it's almost impossible to even think of how long that list would be. But if you use those shortcuts only in those programs, to get specific actions to occur in those programs, then they are Application Program shortcuts. So thinking about the scope of where a specific keyboard shortcut can be used, and if that shortcut does not involve a screen reader modifier key, is the easiest "quick and dirty" way to have a very good sense of whether it's more likely a Windows keyboard shortcut or a shortcut for the application you happen to be working with. You have to remember that any application is likely to directly access Windows functions from within, such as Cut, Copy, Paste, Save, Save As, Open, and the list goes on and on, but the keyboard shortcuts to achieve these tend to be the same across many different application programs rather than specific to them. Think about how many programs use ALT + F, S, for Save and ALT + F, A, for Save As. They're calling out to Windows, "Hey, give me a Save/Save As Dialog Here!" They're not doing it themselves. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Mark
Conceptual knowledge that helps predict screen reader behavior and support problem solving is great. So I agree that knowing the keyboard handling hierarchy is important. But is there a user-friendly way for JAWS users to independently determine the level of a given keystroke?
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David Moore
I teach the blind exactly the same way, and I am totally blind! If one knows which commands are Windows commands, then you can use any screen reader, and you already know many commands! More commands are Windows commands than specific screen reader commands! I do all I can to get adaptive technology teachers to teach just that way! On Sun, Aug 7, 2022, 5:58 PM Angel <angel238@...> wrote:
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On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 05:58 PM, Angel wrote:
A totally blind adaptive technology instructor several years ago advocated teaching the use of basic windows keyboard commands.- Amen to that! One of the things I try to make clear when tutoring is "who controls what" when it comes to keyboard shortcuts. The vast majority of keyboard shortcuts any screen reader user actually uses are either Windows keyboard shortcuts or specific application program shortcuts, and either of those are the same regardless of the specific screen reader in use. I've never understood why the "who controls what" aspect of keyboard shortcuts is not emphasized much, much more. Knowing this information is often one of the things that makes solving certain problems much easier, since if something goes wrong when you issue a keyboard shortcut to control Windows, you know you need to look to Windows for the solution, not your screen reader or the application program you might be using at the time. Also knowing that the hierarchy of shortcut processing is: 1. Windows 2. Screen reader 3. Application program is immensely helpful in many circumstances. There are only so many keyboard shortcuts, and once a given one issued is processed, it is not passed further down the hierarchy. There are occasions where a screen reader shortcut is also used by the application program, too, but it will never be seen by the application program unless one is aware of the screen reader's pass through command, which tells the screen reader to ignore it and hand it off to the application instead. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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