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Moderated Locking the mouse buttons:
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On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 07:14 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
That's not what this instructor did, he assumed that you already knew the basics even though the class was labeled as a beginning JAWS class.- And that you, or anyone, cannot conceive that the question, "What do you want to learn?," could (and I would presume, did) have an implied, "to work with using JAWS," as part of it shows a huge lack of imagination. An ill-phrased question happens all the time. A group of students coming back with, "What do you mean by that, exactly?," would likely have resulted in a clarification if the instructor was interested in instructing and decent at their job. I took what you wrote, and exactly what you wrote, in message #99651, at face value. And there is nothing in it to indicate that you made any effort, as an adult student, to seek any clarification. You stated, and I quote: ", , ,I signed up for a JAWS class at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to learn?" I never went back to that class and learned JAWS on my own . . .," in that message. There's nothing there that even vaguely suggests that you did anything but pack up your things and go home. That gives you zero insight into how that class may have gone afterward and then you proceed to ascribe actual actions to an instructor whose class you did not complete. Again: No. Hell No. What you offered since, and well after that initial post, sheds more light. But none of us here are mind readers and all we have to go on at a given point in time is what you have explicitly stated. And you need to own responsibility for that. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Gene Warner
Who named you a list moderator? My history shows that I speak from experience and am not just saying things because I feel like it.
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I will however rephrase what I said. Brian is probably a very good instructor if he is teaching intermediate to advanced students who already have a good grasp of the basics. But to expect students who don't know what they need to know to tell him what to teach them is not the right way to go about it. And that is all I am trying to say. And now I think it is time I muted this thread since it contains some pretty hostile characters whom I'd rather not hear from. Gene... On 8/8/2022 1:05 AM, Don Walls wrote:
You evade my point. I'm not interested in the history of your course experience. I refer only to your rudeness. Who are you to call Brian "a lousy instructor". Shame on you. Get over yourself and, if you can't express yourself in a more courteous way, get offf this list. |
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Gerald Levy
Here we go again with member bashing and off topic chit chat. Quite frankly, I'm sick of it. If the invisible moderator is unwilling or unable to control this list, then he should relinquish moderation responsibilities to someone who will. I don't tolerate this nonsense on the list I own and moderate, and neither should the moderator of this list, if there is one.
Gerald
On 8/7/2022 11:47 PM, Gene Warner
wrote:
You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was being honest because I've been there. |
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Don Walls
You evade my point. I'm not interested in the history of your course experience. I refer only to your rudeness. Who are you to call Brian "a lousy instructor". Shame on you. Get over yourself and, if you can't express yourself in a more courteous way, get offf this list.
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Don -----Original Message-----
From: Gene Warner Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 8:47 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons: You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was being honest because I've been there. A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most, if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was not a very comfortable situation. Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in that class complained about him. Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn yet. Before you can run, you must first learn to walk. Gene... On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote: Harsh! Do you really need to be so rude? It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs. |
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David Diamond
I like to say you have to crawl before you can run. Pretty much means the same thing. Smile.
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> on behalf of Gene Warner <genewarner3@...>
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 8:47:07 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons: You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was
being honest because I've been there. A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most, if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was not a very comfortable situation. Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in that class complained about him. Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn yet. Before you can run, you must first learn to walk. Gene... On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote: > Harsh! Do you really need to be so rude? It seems reasonable that an > instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs. > > Don > > -----Original Message----- From: Gene Warner > Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 2:22 PM > To: main@jfw.groups.io > Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons: > > You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be > a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you > can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal > is, you have no business being an instructor. > > Gene... > > > On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote: >> I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out >> and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to >> learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking. The >> enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student >> doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want. Then there >> is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the >> teacher is not listening to his or her student. Indirectly related. >> A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, >> I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear >> enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask. Smile. A good >> teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or >> giving vague questions or answers. If a blind person asks where >> something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over >> there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however >> not in a way that the blind person can understand. >> >> *From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian >> Vogel >> *Sent:* August 7, 2022 1:14 PM >> *To:* main@jfw.groups.io >> *Subject:* Re: Locking the mouse buttons: >> >> On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote: >> >> Totally agree! After I lost my vision, I signed up for a JAWS class >> at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted >> and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to >> learn?" >> >> - >> Well, then, you'd definitely not want me as an instructor, either. >> Most of my clients are adults who have lost their vision as adults. I >> am there to instruct on using a screen reader, but I find that >> allowing the client to choose what they want to do/learn while >> learning the screen reader is best left up to them. I can't know what >> programs a given client might want to use or, if trying to teach >> screen reader skills with a web browser, what it is they'd prefer to >> read, research, etc. >> >> One of the things I have had the hardest time getting certain field >> counselors in the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually >> Impaired to understand is that you cannot teach how to use a screen >> reader as a stand alone thing. A screen reader has, as its reason for >> being, accessing something else. And I'd rather the client tell me, >> at least for the most part, what the "something elses" are in their >> lives. >> >> I can't even begin to imagine what, "What do you want to learn?," even >> means when it comes to instructing on a screen reader since they don't >> function in isolation. I interpret it as, "What do you need or want >> to learn how to use with a screen reader?" And I want my students to >> tell me that, and I'll focus accordingly. >> -- >> >> Brian *-*Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 >> >> *Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. >> If you’re alive, it isn’t.** >> * ~ Lauren Bacall >> >> > > > > > > > > > > |
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Gene Warner
You see what you want to see, I do not feel I was being rude, I was being honest because I've been there.
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A rehab instructor who was supposed to teach the basics of using a screen reader did that to everyone in the class I was in. It left most, if not all, of us confused because we had no idea what we needed to learn to get started other than everything. So most of us could not answer his question with anything other than a "I don't know". It was not a very comfortable situation. Several months later when I attended an alumni Christmas party I learned that more than half of that class never returned just like I did and that that instructor was no longer employed there, he was terminated soon after I left. I can only guess that many of the other students in that class complained about him. Now maybe Brian was teaching an intermediate or advanced level class in which case his approach would have been appropriate, but that approach is not appropriate when your students don't know what they need to learn yet. Before you can run, you must first learn to walk. Gene... On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote:
Harsh! Do you really need to be so rude? It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs. |
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Gene Warner
If the course was an intermediate or advanced level course then I would agree that the best way to begin is to know where your students are and where they want to go. But this was supposed to be a beginning level course where the basics everyone needs to know were to be taught and that does not need any knowledge of what the students goals are because those goals have no bearing on learning the basics. Is that so difficult to understand?
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Oh, but I forget, you would probably want to do critical analysis of Shakespeare's writings in a kindergarten level reading class. Gene... On 8/7/2022 10:03 PM, Don Walls wrote:
Harsh! Do you really need to be so rude? It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs. |
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Don Walls
Harsh! Do you really need to be so rude? It seems reasonable that an instructor ask a student about the student's goals and needs.
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Don -----Original Message-----
From: Gene Warner Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 2:22 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons: You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal is, you have no business being an instructor. Gene... On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote: I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking. The enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want. Then there is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the teacher is not listening to his or her student. Indirectly related. A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask. Smile. A good teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or giving vague questions or answers. If a blind person asks where something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however not in a way that the blind person can understand. |
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Gene Warner
I agree, first you teach the basics that everyone needs to know, then you ask what the student's goals are. That's not what this instructor did, he assumed that you already knew the basics even though the class was labeled as a beginning JAWS class.
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Gene... On 8/7/2022 7:01 PM, Lori Lynn wrote:
Brian, I completely agree with you. In my past life I managed a large training contract where JAWS was one of our largest training groups. Yes, there were basics that all the trainers started out teaching. But before their scheduled training was over, they focused on specific applications and web pages that the student needed to focus on. The trainer can not be expected to know all things about all trainees. To be a successful trainer you must get feedback and input from the student. |
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Lori Lynn
Brian, I completely agree with you. In my past life I managed a large training contract where JAWS was one of our largest training groups. Yes, there were basics that all the trainers started out teaching. But before their scheduled training was over, they focused on specific applications and web pages that the student needed to focus on. The trainer can not be expected to know all things about all trainees. To be a successful trainer you must get feedback and input from the student.
When I first got a computer at home with JAWS, I chose web pages that I thought would be fun or interesting. Exploring them helped me to become the proficient JAWS user that I now am.
Lori Lynn
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, August 7, 2022 4:33 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:
On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 05:22 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Gene,
You stated that you walked out of that class and never went back. And then you have the unmitigated gall to project what you believe the instructor might have done. Sorry, but no. Hell no. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Gene Warner
Exactly, that's what I was expecting, starting off with screen reader basics that everyone needs to learn, just as there are basics of Windows that everyone, regardless of the final goals, needs to learn. But this instructor started with students knowing nothing about screen readers except that they needed to learn how to use one, and were asked that question from the very start. He would then tell you what he wants you to do, then he'd go to his desk and play games and not pay any attention to the students until someone gets enough courage to ask him for help.
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So I went home and started working my way through Freedom Scientific's training, with some telephone help from the to get me started. Gene... On 8/7/2022 5:36 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
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K0LNY
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I think you both may be correct.
There are basics that always have to be addressed
first.
Like in typing lessons for example.
But ultimately, teaching things are best directed
with the student's goals in mind.
Glenn ----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2022 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons: The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal is, you have no business being an instructor.- Then I have no business being an instructor. In the context of one-on-one tutoring, which is what I do, I absolutely do not set the goals, the client does. And it's been working beautifully for over 10 years now. Were I trying to do a class, I would still, for the most part, be asking clients to pick, say websites that they have an interest in rather than my picking a single one except for the basic instruction at the outset. But one-on-one, I prefer to go in precisely the direction the client wishes to be taken. To each his or her own. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build
19044 Here
is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re
alive, it isn’t. |
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On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 05:22 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal is, you have no business being an instructor.- Then I have no business being an instructor. In the context of one-on-one tutoring, which is what I do, I absolutely do not set the goals, the client does. And it's been working beautifully for over 10 years now. Were I trying to do a class, I would still, for the most part, be asking clients to pick, say websites that they have an interest in rather than my picking a single one except for the basic instruction at the outset. But one-on-one, I prefer to go in precisely the direction the client wishes to be taken. To each his or her own. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Gene Warner
You are right, I wouldn't want you as an instructor because you would be a lousy one. The class was supposed to be a class on using JAWS. If you can't teach that without needing the student to tell you what his goal is, you have no business being an instructor.
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Gene... On 8/7/2022 5:13 PM, David Diamond wrote:
I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking. The enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want. Then there is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the teacher is not listening to his or her student. Indirectly related. A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask. Smile. A good teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or giving vague questions or answers. If a blind person asks where something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however not in a way that the blind person can understand. |
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David Diamond
I think in this case the sighted person did not draw the client out and the client did not tell the teacher exactly what she needed to learn. Sorry, some people’s communication skills are lacking. The enquirer doesn’t know how to draw the person out and the student doesn’t know how to communicate properly what they want. Then there is the other thought, audio skills are lacking as well, I E the teacher is not listening to his or her student. Indirectly related. A person asked me a question and I did not understand what he wanted, I asked for clarification and all he said was, “The question is clear enough.” If it was clear enough, I’d not have to ask. Smile. A good teacher should know how to draw their students out, not asking or giving vague questions or answers. If a blind person asks where something is in a store, the person they ask should not say, “Over there or, over that way.” True they’ve answered the question however not in a way that the blind person can understand.
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
Brian Vogel
Sent: August 7, 2022 1:14 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: Locking the mouse buttons:
On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 02:10 PM, Gene Warner wrote:
Totally agree! After I lost my vision, I signed up for a JAWS class at the local Lighthouse for the blind, the instructor was sighted and his method of instruction was to ask, "What do you want to learn?"- Well, then, you'd definitely not want me as an instructor, either. Most of my clients are adults who have lost their vision as adults. I am there to instruct on using a screen reader, but I find that allowing the client to choose what they want to do/learn while learning the screen reader is best left up to them. I can't know what programs a given client might want to use or, if trying to teach screen reader skills with a web browser, what it is they'd prefer to read, research, etc. One of the things I have had the hardest time getting certain field counselors in the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired to understand is that you cannot teach how to use a screen reader as a stand alone thing. A screen reader has, as its reason for being, accessing something else. And I'd rather the client tell me, at least for the most part, what the "something elses" are in their lives. I can't even begin to imagine what, "What do you want to learn?," even means when it comes to instructing on a screen reader since they don't function in isolation. I interpret it as, "What do you need or want to learn how to use with a screen reader?" And I want my students to tell me that, and I'll focus accordingly. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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On Sun, Aug 7, 2022 at 01:56 PM, Angel wrote:
Because I would doubt he had the confidence in his own ability to properly instruct and to empathize with me, were he forced to depend on his sight to teach a skill I would be using independent of the sense of sight.- Eric Damry, and bless him, is an outlier (in the extreme positive and skilled end of the bell curve) of sighted screen reader users/instructors. A very great many instructors of the blind, regardless of the specific skill, are not blind themselves and never attempt to simulate blindness for themselves for any extended period. For myself, my personal opinion is that my sight is "value added" during instruction because one can often see exactly what went wrong, and instruct on how to fix and/or avoid that in the future, rather than spending a lot of time trying to figure out what just happened. I've also often said, and believe, that there is nothing better than a skilled blind tutor for a blind student. I will and can never know many aspects of "living blind," and would have to be insane were I to claim I did. My expertise, what there is of it, is related to the technologies with what I do know about "living blind" coming from friendships and working with clients. But when it comes to selecting your own instructors, it always comes down to picking the ones best suited to you. I wouldn't have anyone do otherwise. -- Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044 Here is a test to find out whether your mission in life is complete. If you’re alive, it isn’t. |
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Mike B.
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Hi Angel,
The Screen Shade feature is only available in Jaws2018
and newer running Windows 10. I'm not sure, but possibly Windows 8.1 as
well.
Take care. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. ----- Original Message -----
From: Angel
Sent: Sunday, August 07, 2022 10:56 AM
Subject: Locking the mouse buttons: I am using Jaws 18, conjoined with windows 10. In view of this: Where is the screen shade-Curtin, and how does one employ it. Eric Damery, employed by Freedom Scientific, uses Jaws and the keyboard exclusively, and is fully sighted. I read, once, he did so, because his dear father was totally blind, and had familiarized him with blindness alternative technics. When I was learning the Braille code over 65 years ago: Our fully sighted teachers read Braille exclusively using their fingers. They learned the code in order to instruct blinded world war II veterans. The thery, then, was, to best instruct us blind, and physically challenged users of a particular skill one ought to be proficient in the use of that skill using the same technics used by those using the skills every day. In 98, when I got my first computer, my instructor was totally blind. I don’t know whether I would trust a sight dependent person to teach me anything, truly. Because I would doubt he had the confidence in his own ability to properly instruct and to empathize with me, were he forced to depend on his sight to teach a skill I would be using independent of the sense of sight.
Sent from Mail for Windows
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JM Casey
There is no screen curtain in JAWS 18, unfortunately. I believe it was introduced in JAWS 2019, which is two versions later than the one you have.
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Angel
Sent: August 7, 2022 01:56 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Locking the mouse buttons:
I am using Jaws 18, conjoined with windows 10. In view of this: Where is the screen shade-Curtin, and how does one employ it. Eric Damery, employed by Freedom Scientific, uses Jaws and the keyboard exclusively, and is fully sighted. I read, once, he did so, because his dear father was totally blind, and had familiarized him with blindness alternative technics. When I was learning the Braille code over 65 years ago: Our fully sighted teachers read Braille exclusively using their fingers. They learned the code in order to instruct blinded world war II veterans. The thery, then, was, to best instruct us blind, and physically challenged users of a particular skill one ought to be proficient in the use of that skill using the same technics used by those using the skills every day. In 98, when I got my first computer, my instructor was totally blind. I don’t know whether I would trust a sight dependent person to teach me anything, truly. Because I would doubt he had the confidence in his own ability to properly instruct and to empathize with me, were he forced to depend on his sight to teach a skill I would be using independent of the sense of sight.
Sent from Mail for Windows
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