moderated Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA


Mark
 

When we bring up a dialog with the list headings with JAWS, via JAWS + F6, the headings are presented in a linear list view. It's possible to use radio buttons to filter just to a particular heading level, but that is a little awkward with more key strokes. But NVDA does it differently. The dialog box contains a tree view of the headings, which means the heading structure can be folded and expanded easily.  The NVDA way seems more user-friendly in my opinion. But maybe there's a reason for the way JAWS does it that I don't know.  I'm curious what others think about the experience?


Chris Hill
 

Considering how few websites use headings properly, I just use the number keys and h.

CH


On 2/4/2022 08:00, Mark wrote:
When we bring up a dialog with the list headings with JAWS, via JAWS + F6, the headings are presented in a linear list view. It's possible to use radio buttons to filter just to a particular heading level, but that is a little awkward with more key strokes. But NVDA does it differently. The dialog box contains a tree view of the headings, which means the heading structure can be folded and expanded easily.  The NVDA way seems more user-friendly in my opinion. But maybe there's a reason for the way JAWS does it that I don't know.  I'm curious what others think about the experience?


Glenn / Lenny
 


I can never get NVDA to read the stuff I need to hear.
I do something like move to focus with the minus key and insert 7 for review mode, but I get more information with routing Jaws to PC and at that point, the Jaws cursor is active and I can read what needs to be read.
On rare occasions I need to use the virtual cursor to read an application.
NVDA, if it can read as much as Jaws, then the layout is so weird, that a normal person would never find it intuitive.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: Mark
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2022 8:00 AM
Subject: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

When we bring up a dialog with the list headings with JAWS, via JAWS + F6, the headings are presented in a linear list view. It's possible to use radio buttons to filter just to a particular heading level, but that is a little awkward with more key strokes. But NVDA does it differently. The dialog box contains a tree view of the headings, which means the heading structure can be folded and expanded easily.  The NVDA way seems more user-friendly in my opinion. But maybe there's a reason for the way JAWS does it that I don't know.  I'm curious what others think about the experience?


Glenn / Lenny
 


I wasn't thinking of web pages/HTML, just comparing the to for general use.
I guess I jumped to comparing the two in general, and not how they compare in HTML.
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2022 9:49 AM
Subject: Re: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

I can never get NVDA to read the stuff I need to hear.
I do something like move to focus with the minus key and insert 7 for review mode, but I get more information with routing Jaws to PC and at that point, the Jaws cursor is active and I can read what needs to be read.
On rare occasions I need to use the virtual cursor to read an application.
NVDA, if it can read as much as Jaws, then the layout is so weird, that a normal person would never find it intuitive.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: Mark
Sent: Friday, February 04, 2022 8:00 AM
Subject: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

When we bring up a dialog with the list headings with JAWS, via JAWS + F6, the headings are presented in a linear list view. It's possible to use radio buttons to filter just to a particular heading level, but that is a little awkward with more key strokes. But NVDA does it differently. The dialog box contains a tree view of the headings, which means the heading structure can be folded and expanded easily.  The NVDA way seems more user-friendly in my opinion. But maybe there's a reason for the way JAWS does it that I don't know.  I'm curious what others think about the experience?


Udo Egner-Walter
 

Hi Mark, 

I agree that a heading structure placed in a tree view would be an enrichment for JAWS, too. You can get a quick overview of the web site. 

Udo 

Am 04.02.2022 um 15:00 schrieb Mark <mweiler@...>:

When we bring up a dialog with the list headings with JAWS, via JAWS + F6, the headings are presented in a linear list view. It's possible to use radio buttons to filter just to a particular heading level, but that is a little awkward with more key strokes. But NVDA does it differently. The dialog box contains a tree view of the headings, which means the heading structure can be folded and expanded easily.  The NVDA way seems more user-friendly in my opinion. But maybe there's a reason for the way JAWS does it that I don't know.  I'm curious what others think about the experience?


 

On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:49 AM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
NVDA, if it can read as much as Jaws, then the layout is so weird, that a normal person would never find it intuitive.
-
I beg to differ, and that's not a defense of NVDA, per se.

There is virtually nothing that is intuitive, in any meaningful sense of that word, about screen readers on the whole, or even any complex piece of software on the whole.

What each of us eventually feels is intuitive is the direct result of our experience with it.   I have to remind myself of this, frequently, when tutoring students who are entirely new to things that are now as natural to me as breathing, because they are "what I'm used to" from having used them for a very long time.

There's nothing more or less intuitive about JAWS or NVDA or Narrator or {insert screen reader here} on the whole.  There may be certain functions that are, but I'd say they're "easier to grasp" rather than intuitive.  I've actually come to hate the use of the word intuitive in computing because it's virtually never true in its literal sense.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019


Glenn / Lenny
 


What I consider intuitive in this sense, is that Jaws seems to use controls designed for someone who just wants the relevant information.
NVDA seems to be written for people who wrote the program, with child objects and levels of windows, where Jaws lends itself to the non-tech user experience, to the point it can.
All interfaces will require some tech learning, but as I mentioned, NVDA with its objects, child, parent, and the like, is not the way a normal computer user gets information from what comes up on the screen.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2022 11:28 AM
Subject: Re: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:49 AM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
NVDA, if it can read as much as Jaws, then the layout is so weird, that a normal person would never find it intuitive.
-
I beg to differ, and that's not a defense of NVDA, per se.

There is virtually nothing that is intuitive, in any meaningful sense of that word, about screen readers on the whole, or even any complex piece of software on the whole.

What each of us eventually feels is intuitive is the direct result of our experience with it.   I have to remind myself of this, frequently, when tutoring students who are entirely new to things that are now as natural to me as breathing, because they are "what I'm used to" from having used them for a very long time.

There's nothing more or less intuitive about JAWS or NVDA or Narrator or {insert screen reader here} on the whole.  There may be certain functions that are, but I'd say they're "easier to grasp" rather than intuitive.  I've actually come to hate the use of the word intuitive in computing because it's virtually never true in its literal sense.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019


 

On Sat, Feb 5, 2022 at 12:38 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
All interfaces will require some tech learning, but as I mentioned, NVDA with its objects, child, parent, and the like, is not the way a normal computer user gets information from what comes up on the screen.
-
Which is one of three ways offered.  Again, not a defense of NVDA, but it sounds like you want screen review mode, not object review mode.

JAWS and NVDA have analogous ways of working, for the most part.  Tool to task, or I guess I should say "review mode to task."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019


JM Casey
 

Interesting; I never quite thought about it that way. I guess I would say that both JAWS and NVDA are not really representative of the way a “normal” computer user (whatever that really is haha) gets information that comes up on the screen. I suspect for most people it would have more to do with what they’re used to and are comfortable with. Someone who’s used JAWS for years might have a hard time adjusting, but starting off with NVDA, I dout that would be much the case. I started Windows use with JAWS myself, and even though I haven’t upgraded the shark in years, I still use it about half of the time.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
Sent: February 5, 2022 12:38 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

 

What I consider intuitive in this sense, is that Jaws seems to use controls designed for someone who just wants the relevant information.

NVDA seems to be written for people who wrote the program, with child objects and levels of windows, where Jaws lends itself to the non-tech user experience, to the point it can.

All interfaces will require some tech learning, but as I mentioned, NVDA with its objects, child, parent, and the like, is not the way a normal computer user gets information from what comes up on the screen.

Glenn

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2022 11:28 AM

Subject: Re: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

 

On Fri, Feb 4, 2022 at 10:49 AM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:

NVDA, if it can read as much as Jaws, then the layout is so weird, that a normal person would never find it intuitive.

-
I beg to differ, and that's not a defense of NVDA, per se.

There is virtually nothing that is intuitive, in any meaningful sense of that word, about screen readers on the whole, or even any complex piece of software on the whole.

What each of us eventually feels is intuitive is the direct result of our experience with it.   I have to remind myself of this, frequently, when tutoring students who are entirely new to things that are now as natural to me as breathing, because they are "what I'm used to" from having used them for a very long time.

There's nothing more or less intuitive about JAWS or NVDA or Narrator or {insert screen reader here} on the whole.  There may be certain functions that are, but I'd say they're "easier to grasp" rather than intuitive.  I've actually come to hate the use of the word intuitive in computing because it's virtually never true in its literal sense.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019


Mark
 

I think that NDVA's representation of the heading structures as a tree view reflects the nested structure of headings better than JAWS.  JAWS uses a tree view in the regions dialog.  Tree views also allow folding.  However, I just realized, that JAWS heading list dialog has access keys, like alt + 2 to filter just the heading levels 2 in the list box. That's kind of interesting. It makes it easy to just review a level of headings.  I can now see a case why the JAWS way is more user friendly.  Do others use the alt access keys in the heading list dialog to filter and I'm just late to the party?


 

Mark,

          That capability does sound interesting, and useful.  NVDA implements something similar in its single letter navigation commands, as the single digits 1 through 6 will traverse headings of the same level as the number you hit.  You can cruise through a given heading level pretty quickly that way.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019


David Moore
 

The concept of addons, gives you what you want! You can install as many or as few as you want, giving you what you want! JAWS is so bloated, people don't use half of what is built in. JAWS comes with way too much out of the box! Using the numpad with the review cursor is so easy, and you just use the normal arrow keys to move the system focus! The review cursor is like the JAWS invisible cursor! Also, the Golden cursor add-on lets you do a lot with the mouse with key commands! It is good to have both, however! More tools is better! But, if you do not have the money for JAWS, NVDA is a great screen reader to count on to do most of what you need!


On Sat, Feb 5, 2022, 8:38 PM Mark <mweiler@...> wrote:
I think that NDVA's representation of the heading structures as a tree view reflects the nested structure of headings better than JAWS.  JAWS uses a tree view in the regions dialog.  Tree views also allow folding.  However, I just realized, that JAWS heading list dialog has access keys, like alt + 2 to filter just the heading levels 2 in the list box. That's kind of interesting. It makes it easy to just review a level of headings.  I can now see a case why the JAWS way is more user friendly.  Do others use the alt access keys in the heading list dialog to filter and I'm just late to the party?


Mark
 

Oh, yes, I guess a user could just use 1 through 6 in the document to get the functionality in the JAWS heading list dialog box. Sigh. I'm back to leaning to NVDA's use of the tree view in the dialog box. 


David Kingsbury
 

Hi,

I find the NVDA headings list time consuming and confusing because you first have to take the step of switching your elements list to headings (versus using the single Insert F6 keystroke with JAWS). It is then presented in a tree view and because of this you first hear level 0 for level 1 headings, level 1 for level 2 headings and so forth. You can of course get used to that, but I just don’t think it’s worth it. I use the headings list all the time in Word but not very often on the web, prefering instead to simply press H or 1, 2, 3, etc to move by level.

David


Mark
 

Hi David, I read your book on JAWS and NVDA in Word. It's very helpful.  That's interesting that you use the heading list a lot for Word but not the web. What do you think is the reason?  Do you use alt + number to filter the headings in the list view in the dialog box or do you just use the up and down keys?


David Kingsbury
 

Hi  Mark,

Most of the time, I don’t find headings lists that helpful on the web, just because there are usually not that many of them, and I can figure out any structural stuff fairly quickly by pressing H or 1, 2, 3 for levels. However, there are notable exceptions. I was recently on my Linked In profile and there tend to be a ton of headings there. Getting the list to see how many there were and get a sense of structure was useful. So there are times when it is useful. In Word docs that have headings, navigating with headings is by far the most efficient way to get around.

And by the way, I didn’t know your trick of pressing Alt plus the heading level. Very nice. Thanks for that. One thing I really like about these Groups.IO lists is all the stuff you learn totally by accident!

David


Glenn / Lenny
 


Sometimes I will notice on a web page that categories are at specific heading levels, like
heading level 2
So I can then keep pressing #2 until I find what I want.
#2 also works well with a giant page of Amazon.com results, and #3 works well for eBay results.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, February 07, 2022 10:40 AM
Subject: Re: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

Hi  Mark,

Most of the time, I don’t find headings lists that helpful on the web, just because there are usually not that many of them, and I can figure out any structural stuff fairly quickly by pressing H or 1, 2, 3 for levels. However, there are notable exceptions. I was recently on my Linked In profile and there tend to be a ton of headings there. Getting the list to see how many there were and get a sense of structure was useful. So there are times when it is useful. In Word docs that have headings, navigating with headings is by far the most efficient way to get around.

And by the way, I didn’t know your trick of pressing Alt plus the heading level. Very nice. Thanks for that. One thing I really like about these Groups.IO lists is all the stuff you learn totally by accident!

David


 

On Mon, Feb 7, 2022 at 11:44 AM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
Sometimes I will notice on a web page that categories are at specific heading levels, like heading level 2
-
And on those occasions where you have someone who has actually used a hierarchical heading structure correctly, this is an incredibly useful tool.

The above being said, far too often that structure is not used correctly.  But it's worth exploring on a site-by-site or frequently-used-page basis, because once you have discovered those that do use it and use it well, it can be very handy indeed.

It's just a crap shoot as far as what you're going to actually get on any random site.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019


Van Lant, Robin
 

I haven’t really looked for the heading level filters in the dialog, but that could be interesting.  I am not an NVDA user, so cannot speak to that tree view approach per se.  I could see how this could be preferable to some to get a feel for the structural layout, but I wouldn’t necessarily want to have to expand each heading.  Sometimes I find that page creators are using headings for visual effect and the headings they use may not really indicate structure as we would want. Sometimes I just want to see the full layout in a list to preview the entire content, which is where I would not want to have to expand each level to see this quickly.  So, I guess I’m content with the JAWS method, but would adapt to the NVDA approach if it were in use. 

 

Robin

 

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mark
Sent: Saturday, February 5, 2022 6:39 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Dialog of heading list: JAWS versus NVDA

 

WARNING: This email originated externally. Exercise caution. Think before clicking links or opening attachments.

 

I think that NDVA's representation of the heading structures as a tree view reflects the nested structure of headings better than JAWS.  JAWS uses a tree view in the regions dialog.  Tree views also allow folding.  However, I just realized, that JAWS heading list dialog has access keys, like alt + 2 to filter just the heading levels 2 in the list box. That's kind of interesting. It makes it easy to just review a level of headings.  I can now see a case why the JAWS way is more user friendly.  Do others use the alt access keys in the heading list dialog to filter and I'm just late to the party?



KeyCorp Public

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


Mark
 

It's not only websites that using headings. ePub is a format for electronic books and I would hope and imagine publishers follow the heading structure better since books lend themselves to obvious nested sections.