well Brian keeps telling everybody windows 11 it's just windows 10  21H2.

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

It is the function of creative men to perceive the relations between thoughts, or things, or forms of expression that may seem utterly different, and to be able to combine them into some new forms--the power to connect the seemingly unconnected.

    ~ William Plomer

I could if it was worth my time pull up at least for direct quotes from you and this list says that windows 21H2 is Windows 11 and windows 11 is just 21H2.

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

It is the function of creative men to perceive the relations between thoughts, or things, or forms of expression that may seem utterly different, and to be able to combine them into some new forms--the power to connect the seemingly unconnected.

    ~ William Plomer

Randy Barnett

On Sep 6, 2021, at 4:57 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi,

They are not the same thing. The story is a bit more complicated than that (I thought I wrote an explanation similar to the below one on a different list a while ago, but looks like I may need to revisit that one in the future):

The goal of Windows 10 series was to unify all sorts of device classes under the same operating system concept. This is why, over the last few years, different kinds of devices such as PC’s, smartphones, Xbox, Surface Hub, HoloLens, servers, IoT (Internet of Things) and many others were advertised as running on Windows 10. Apart from smartphones (Windows 10 Mobile is a flop), other device categories were more successful.

In 2019, Microsoft announced Windows 10 X, a version of Windows 10 designed for foldable devices. Since these devices were mainly targeted at schools, it was supposed to be more secure than other Windows 10 flavors. But things didn’t work out that way: difficulty with justifying the concept (foldables versus laptops), along with the COVID-19 pandemic and changed expectations of enterprises (remote workplace and security) led to evaporation of Windows 10 X in 2021. But not all was lost: several components that were supposed to become Windows 10 X such as the new user interface was recycled into Windows 11. At least this should explain why folks were skeptical of Windows 11 when it launched, especially because of updated system requirements and the revamped user interface.

As for Windows 10 Version 21H2, it is based on Version 2004 (last year) with backports from older Windows 11 code, or rather, from what is considered old Windows 10 Insider Preview builds. For almost two years, Windows Insiders on the dev channel were testing builds that were not tied to stable releases. This was done to prepare now scrapped Windows 10 X and to look for features that can be backported to older releases. In fact, Windows 10 Version 20H2 includes features that were tested by Insiders throughout early 2020 such as switching between Edge tabs by pressing Alt+Tab. Version 21H1 includes internal changes designed for enterprises, while 21H2 includes Linux GPU Compute support in Windows Subsystem for Linux (WSL) which was a change introduced months ago in Insider Preview builds. All these features are built on top of Windows 10 Version 2004 (build 19041) with flags indicating which features should be active on a given “feature update” – in a way, everyone running Version 2004/20H2/21H1 with September 1, 2021 optional cumulative update is running what could be described as Version 21H2 (build 19044) although new features are locked until an enablement package is released in a few weeks.

As much as Windows 10/11 Version 21H2 are different, they are distant cousins. Both report themselves as Windows NT 10.0 (for programmers), started out their lives as Windows 10, and will run programs (including screen readers) happily (including 32-bit programs on 64-bit Windows) although updates are required from programs to improve support for Windows 11.

Hope this clarifies a lot.

Cheers,

Joseph

Randy Barnett

On Sep 6, 2021, at 10:00 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Sep 6, 2021 at 12:48 PM, Randy Barnett wrote:

well Brian keeps telling everybody windows 11 it's just windows 10  21H2.

-
No, Brian keeps telling everybody that for most of it's development cycle, it was intended as being released as Windows 10, Version 21H2, which is an incontrovertible fact.  The rebranding to Windows 11 occurred long, long after the Windows Insiders had their hands on the early versions of what was, at that time, intended as Version 21H2.

The core of Windows 11 shares massive amounts of DNA with the latest version of Windows 10, with some additions.  It is not a tectonic shift.

I'd actually call them very close cousins, not distant ones.  The levels of remove will begin really in earnest after the initial release of Windows 11, when certain aspects of Windows 10 and Windows 11 will begin true and significant divergence.  Even then, I expect a lot of backporting of certain Windows 11 features into Windows 10.  They'll never be quite as separate as all of the versions up through Windows 10 were from each other.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043  

It is the function of creative men to perceive the relations between thoughts, or things, or forms of expression that may seem utterly different, and to be able to combine them into some new forms--the power to connect the seemingly unconnected.

    ~ William Plomer

Randy Barnett

On Sep 6, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi,

According to recent notes from Microsoft and based on how Microsoft released recent Windows 10 feature updates, Windows 11 will be an optional upgrade for qualifying devices. The “seeker” experience refers to people going to Settings (Windows+I)/Update and Security/Windows Update and clicking “check for updates” button. Because Windows 11 is an optional upgrade for qualifying devices, it will be offered as an optional update at first to those actively seeking it. I expect it will become an optional update for all qualifying devices in 2022; this step is crucial since Microsoft doesn’t want to repeat October 2018 Update release nightmare.

To elaborate a bit, a feature update (whether a full upgrade/build or an enablement package) appears as either a mandatory or an optional update:

• Mandatory: Windows Insiders (users and Microsoft employees alike). Depending on which channel a Windows Insider subscribes to, a build is released at least weekly (dev = full build, beta = next full stable version and/or preview cumulative updates, release preview = preview cumulative updates and/or the next feature update coming from beta channel). In addition to public Windows Insider channels (dev, beta, release preview), a number of Insider channels exist inside Microsoft (canary = bleeding-edge, self-host = unstable but validated canary, corporate = other Microsoft people). The story is way complicated than this though – I won’t go into details unless asked.
• Optional: everyone else unless the feature update in use is about to exit support. Until 2019 feature updates were mandatory for everyone in order to “keep Windows current” (that phrasing is from Microsoft, by the way). After the October 2018 Update fiasco, Microsoft realized that not everyone was happy with “eating” feature updates every six months, so it was changed so that the next feature update was optional as long as the current feature update in use is actively supported by Microsoft. A feature update is supported for at least eighteen months (Windows 10 = eighteen months, Windows 11 = two years); when the feature update is about to exit support, the latest compatible feature update was offered automatically (note the word “compatible” as you’ll see below).

Therefore, as long as you are using Windows 10 Version 2004 or later (which is the version going out of support in December), you will be offered Windows 10 Version 21H2 or Windows 11 (Version 21H2) as an optional update depending on whether your system can move onto Windows 11.

As for what makes your system a “qualified system”, based on latest happenings with Windows 11 system requirements:

• A 64-bit x86 or ARM processor. Recent processors are required (Intel Core 8^th generation and a limited set of 7^th generation processors and later, AMD Ryzen 3000 and some 2000 processors and later, Qualcomm 845 and later).
• Must be a multi-core processor (two cores or higher).
• At least 4 GB of physical memory.
• At least 64 GB of free disk space.
• A motherboard with UEFI (Unified extensible Firmware Interface) firmware with Secure Boot enabled and Trusted Platform Module (TPM) 2.0 capability (either a dedicated hardware or firmware enables it).

You will also need to have a Microsoft Account handy – required when setting up Windows 11 Home, optional otherwise. And yes, JAWS 2022 or later is required for Windows 11 (although latest JAWS 2021 update will let you hear Start search results, it isn’t optimized for Windows 11, so it isn’t really compatible, although 2021 will run happily on Windows 11). There are other things users can do to prepare for Windows 11 should they choose to do so – as some steps are not specific to screen readers, they will be published on a different list first.

Cheers,

Joseph

Joseph could you way in on people being forced to upgrade to 11. I. E. Not having a choice. I posted a link and an article that made it clear that it is a seeker based upgrade no one would be automatically upgraded. have you found the same thing?

Randy Barnett

On Sep 6, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi,

According to recent notes from Microsoft and based on how Microsoft released recent Windows 10 feature updates, Windows 11 will be an optional upgrade for qualifying devices. The “seeker” experience refers to people going to Settings (Windows+I)/Update and Security/Windows Update and clicking “check for updates” button. Because Windows 11 is an optional upgrade for qualifying devices, it will be offered as an optional update at first to those actively seeking it. I expect it will become an optional update for all qualifying devices in 2022; this step is crucial since Microsoft doesn’t want to repeat October 2018 Update release nightmare.

To elaborate a bit, a feature update (whether a full upgrade/build or an enablement package) appears as either a mandatory or an optional update:

• Mandatory: Windows Insiders (users and Microsoft employees alike). Depending on which channel a Windows Insider subscribes to, a build is released at least weekly (dev = full build, beta = next full stable version and/or preview cumulative updates, release preview = preview cumulative updates and/or the next feature update coming from beta channel). In addition to public Windows Insider channels (dev, beta, release preview), a number of Insider channels exist inside Microsoft (canary = bleeding-edge, self-host = unstable but validated canary, corporate = other Microsoft people). The story is way complicated than this though – I won’t go into details unless asked.
• Optional: everyone else unless the feature update in use is about to exit support. Until 2019 feature updates were mandatory for everyone in order to “keep Windows current” (that phrasing is from Microsoft, by the way). After the October 2018 Update fiasco, Microsoft realized that not everyone was happy with “eating” feature updates every six months, so it was changed so that the next feature update was optional as long as the current feature update in use is actively supported by Microsoft. A feature update is supported for at least eighteen months (Windows 10 = eighteen months, Windows 11 = two years); when the feature update is about to exit support, the latest compatible feature update was offered automatically (note the word “compatible” as you’ll see below).

Therefore, as long as you are using Windows 10 Version 2004 or later (which is the version going out of support in December), you will be offered Windows 10 Version 21H2 or Windows 11 (Version 21H2) as an optional update depending on whether your system can move onto Windows 11.

As for what makes your system a “qualified system”, based on latest happenings with Windows 11 system requirements:

• A 64-bit x86 or ARM processor. Recent processors are required (Intel Core 8^th generation and a limited set of 7^th generation processors and later, AMD Ryzen 3000 and some 2000 processors and later, Qualcomm 845 and later).
• Must be a multi-core processor (two cores or higher).
• At least 4 GB of physical memory.
• At least 64 GB of free disk space.
• A motherboard with UEFI (Unified extensible Firmware Interface) firmware with Secure Boot enabled and Trusted Platform Module (TPM) 2.0 capability (either a dedicated hardware or firmware enables it).

You will also need to have a Microsoft Account handy – required when setting up Windows 11 Home, optional otherwise. And yes, JAWS 2022 or later is required for Windows 11 (although latest JAWS 2021 update will let you hear Start search results, it isn’t optimized for Windows 11, so it isn’t really compatible, although 2021 will run happily on Windows 11). There are other things users can do to prepare for Windows 11 should they choose to do so – as some steps are not specific to screen readers, they will be published on a different list first.

Cheers,

Joseph

Joseph could you way in on people being forced to upgrade to 11. I. E. Not having a choice. I posted a link and an article that made it clear that it is a seeker based upgrade no one would be automatically upgraded. have you found the same thing?

Randy Barnett

On Sep 6, 2021, at 10:36 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi,

The best known is emoji panel – JAWS 2021 does not read updated emoji panel introduced in Windows 11 (at least on my system). Part of this may have to do with the way the emoji panel is organized and how item selection is communicated to screen readers (in comparison, Narrator users can interact with emoji panel in Windows 11).

Cheers,

Joseph

thanks Joseph. I am running the preview release of Windows 11 as an insider. I'm also running the public release of jaws 2021. I haven't noticed any problems with 2021 at all. I haven't found anything that I can't access and 11 that I could access in 10. Are there any examples of incompatibility?

Randy Barnett

On Sep 6, 2021, at 10:26 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi,

According to recent notes from Microsoft and based on how Microsoft released recent Windows 10 feature updates, Windows 11 will be an optional upgrade for qualifying devices. The “seeker” experience refers to people going to Settings (Windows+I)/Update and Security/Windows Update and clicking “check for updates” button. Because Windows 11 is an optional upgrade for qualifying devices, it will be offered as an optional update at first to those actively seeking it. I expect it will become an optional update for all qualifying devices in 2022; this step is crucial since Microsoft doesn’t want to repeat October 2018 Update release nightmare.

To elaborate a bit, a feature update (whether a full upgrade/build or an enablement package) appears as either a mandatory or an optional update:

• Mandatory: Windows Insiders (users and Microsoft employees alike). Depending on which channel a Windows Insider subscribes to, a build is released at least weekly (dev = full build, beta = next full stable version and/or preview cumulative updates, release preview = preview cumulative updates and/or the next feature update coming from beta channel). In addition to public Windows Insider channels (dev, beta, release preview), a number of Insider channels exist inside Microsoft (canary = bleeding-edge, self-host = unstable but validated canary, corporate = other Microsoft people). The story is way complicated than this though – I won’t go into details unless asked.
• Optional: everyone else unless the feature update in use is about to exit support. Until 2019 feature updates were mandatory for everyone in order to “keep Windows current” (that phrasing is from Microsoft, by the way). After the October 2018 Update fiasco, Microsoft realized that not everyone was happy with “eating” feature updates every six months, so it was changed so that the next feature update was optional as long as the current feature update in use is actively supported by Microsoft. A feature update is supported for at least eighteen months (Windows 10 = eighteen months, Windows 11 = two years); when the feature update is about to exit support, the latest compatible feature update was offered automatically (note the word “compatible” as you’ll see below).

Therefore, as long as you are using Windows 10 Version 2004 or later (which is the version going out of support in December), you will be offered Windows 10 Version 21H2 or Windows 11 (Version 21H2) as an optional update depending on whether your system can move onto Windows 11.

As for what makes your system a “qualified system”, based on latest happenings with Windows 11 system requirements:

• A 64-bit x86 or ARM processor. Recent processors are required (Intel Core 8^th generation and a limited set of 7^th generation processors and later, AMD Ryzen 3000 and some 2000 processors and later, Qualcomm 845 and later).
• Must be a multi-core processor (two cores or higher).
• At least 4 GB of physical memory.
• At least 64 GB of free disk space.
• A motherboard with UEFI (Unified extensible Firmware Interface) firmware with Secure Boot enabled and Trusted Platform Module (TPM) 2.0 capability (either a dedicated hardware or firmware enables it).

You will also need to have a Microsoft Account handy – required when setting up Windows 11 Home, optional otherwise. And yes, JAWS 2022 or later is required for Windows 11 (although latest JAWS 2021 update will let you hear Start search results, it isn’t optimized for Windows 11, so it isn’t really compatible, although 2021 will run happily on Windows 11). There are other things users can do to prepare for Windows 11 should they choose to do so – as some steps are not specific to screen readers, they will be published on a different list first.

Cheers,

Joseph

Joseph could you way in on people being forced to upgrade to 11. I. E. Not having a choice. I posted a link and an article that made it clear that it is a seeker based upgrade no one would be automatically upgraded. have you found the same thing?