moderated Crosspost: Question about new member


Jasmine Kotsay
 

Hi,

I know a teacher who would like to learn more about JAWS. I thought it might be good for her to come onto a listserv or two so she can ask questions and learn from us. Is that possible? She can see, but she is a VI teacher.

 

Sincerely,

Jasmine


 

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


David Diamond
 

I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?  So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling your department. 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


Randy Barnett
 

Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.

On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:

I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?  So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling your department. 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


Glenn / Lenny
 


I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of sight.
If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or gal down the street who does not even use the product.  As far as rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there would be no way to police it.
And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a problem lister.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.

On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:

I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?  So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling your department. 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


Laura Shumate
 

I don't see a problem I think teaching the sighted about Access
Technology is a cool thing.
I even had my dad who is sighted use Talk Back on his phone but he
said after a day he wanted no more to do with it.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684

On 1/27/21, Glenn / Lenny <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the blindfolds
typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or should be worn so
the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of sight.
If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then that
person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those who use
the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or gal down the
street who does not even use the product. As far as rules go, although one
could discriminate against the sighted, there would be no way to police it.
And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a problem
lister.
Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: Randy Barnett
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member


Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they can
empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing this they
aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.


On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:


I agree with Brian. At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all
students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to
supper. This is generally a total of 8 hours. Point? So they rely on
their guide dogs instead of their sight. Tie in? How will the sighted know
about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them. It
drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to
click on the yellow X. Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling
your department.



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member



Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should
have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI
sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the
shore for a very long time.

~ André Gide






--
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684


David Diamond
 

Here is a twist, A group of O & M instructors were at a seminare with some of their students.  The power went out and they panicked.  They went so far as to put candles on the rug so they could be guided by the candle light.  One of their students offered to guide them, they declined.  Point?  This is already been touched on, it is one thing to teach a skill but when, as they say the rubber hits the road, does the teacher practice what they teach or does fear set in? I think it is excellent that a teacher of VIPs wants to join a list like this because it gives him or her insight into our world.   

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
Sent: January 27, 2021 6:57 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.

In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of sight.

If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.

Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or gal down the street who does not even use the product.  As far as rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there would be no way to police it.

And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a problem lister.

Glenn

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM

Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.

On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:

I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?  So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling your department. 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


David Diamond
 

A guide dog trainer told me when she wore the blind fold for one day at the end of the day she had such a headache when she had to drive home. After seeing nothing, all of a sudden she was flooded with visual information, it was over whelming to her.

-----Original Message----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laura
Shumate
Sent: January 27, 2021 7:36 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

I don't see a problem I think teaching the sighted about Access Technology is a
cool thing.
I even had my dad who is sighted use Talk Back on his phone but he said after
a day he wanted no more to do with it.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



On 1/27/21, Glenn / Lenny <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
> I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
> In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the
> blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or
> should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of
sight.
> If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then
> that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
> Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those
> who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or
> gal down the street who does not even use the product. As far as
> rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there would
be no way to police it.
> And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a
> problem lister.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randy Barnett
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
> Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they
> can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing
> this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.
>
>
> On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:
>
>
> I agree with Brian. At one of the guide dog schools, one of the
> days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after
> Breakfast to supper. This is generally a total of 8 hours. Point?
> So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight. Tie in? How
> will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they
> are not aware of them. It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft
> disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X. Darling, if I
> could see it I would not be calling your department.
>
>
>
> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
>
> Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I
> should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.
>
> I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in
> the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>
> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
> the shore for a very long time.
>
> ~ André Gide
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684


David Diamond
 

The school that requires all students to wear a blind fold does this so everyone is on a level playing field.  True instructors can do wear a blind fold, but they can take it off at the end of the day.  Apparently at one school, a trainer took the blind fold off right away because she panicked.  Must be nice to get your sight back and have that ability.  Grin. 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Randy Barnett
Sent: January 27, 2021 6:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.

On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:

I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?  So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling your department. 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


Laura Shumate
 

Hi David,
I told my X husband one day to close his eyes for 1 hour he didn't
even last 30 minutes.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



On 1/28/21, David Diamond <Daviddiamond2019@outlook.com> wrote:
A guide dog trainer told me when she wore the blind fold for one day at the
end of the day she had such a headache when she had to drive home. After
seeing nothing, all of a sudden she was flooded with visual information, it
was over whelming to her.

-----Original Message----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laura
Shumate
Sent: January 27, 2021 7:36 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

I don't see a problem I think teaching the sighted about Access Technology
is a
cool thing.
I even had my dad who is sighted use Talk Back on his phone but he said
after
a day he wanted no more to do with it.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



On 1/27/21, Glenn / Lenny <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
> I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
> In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the
> blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or
> should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of
sight.
> If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then
> that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
> Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those
> who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or
> gal down the street who does not even use the product. As far as
> rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there
would
be no way to police it.
> And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a
> problem lister.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randy Barnett
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
> Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they
> can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing
> this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.
>
>
> On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:
>
>
> I agree with Brian. At one of the guide dog schools, one of the
> days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after
> Breakfast to supper. This is generally a total of 8 hours. Point?
> So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight. Tie in? How
> will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they
> are not aware of them. It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft
> disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X. Darling, if I
> could see it I would not be calling your department.
>
>
>
> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
>
> Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I
> should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.
>
> I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in
> the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>
> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
> the shore for a very long time.
>
> ~ André Gide
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684











--


 

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 01:40 AM, David Diamond wrote:
This is already been touched on, it is one thing to teach a skill but when, as they say the rubber hits the road, does the teacher practice what they teach or does fear set in?
-
Fear sets in, which is entirely natural, as anyone I've ever known who was sighted and lost it will tell you.

I really don't get how there is not an understanding that sighted O&M teachers can know how to teach skills that they, themselves, are not using moment to moment, because they don't need to.  And when you don't need to do something, constantly, to negotiate your world it doesn't "come naturally" in exception circumstances.

We all operate with the sensory palette that we actually possess, no matter how we came to possess it, and if one of those is suddenly removed due to a temporary circumstance it tends to naturally make one uneasy, regardless of what one may know about compensatory strategies for that loss, even with in-depth knowledge in the abstract.

Think about how it would be for you to suddenly have no hearing by artificial means and have to operate in that way for a couple of hours.  It's not a realistic facsimile of how someone who's deaf actually operates in daily life if they've been deaf for any period of time.  Instant deprivation of a sense puts anyone who's experiencing it way off-kilter, and I'm certain a lot of people here know that all too well.  But that's not representative of what it is to live with it long term, as you adjust and become more skilled.  That's why I don't see why the "let's blindfold 'em" schemes are believed to be helpful or representative of anything other than "the panicked stage of being quickly deprived of a sense you normally depend on."  And I've seen very few panicked people be particularly good at anything.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


David Diamond
 

For the trainer to wear a blind fold it shows whether the dog is indeed guiding them properly or they are in a sense directing the dog.  Some students have washed out at a guide dog school because they see an object such as a lamp post and to the sighted or ones who have residual vision it looks like the dog will run them right into it.  One student was constantly overriding the dog’s directions because he, the student saw the object and decided that the dog was not going to guide him around it.  I never forgot the incident where the person driving me to pick up supplies saw my guide dog and I headed for a cement garbage can at quite a speed, he said,, “I was too far away to yell out anything then your dog just took you around it.  I almost had a heart attack watching the entire thing unfold.” Getting back to screen readers, I do have some residual vision and can see things on the display it is just after about 30 seconds of reading something my eyes get tired, thus just use JAWS instead.    

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 28, 2021 7:18 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 01:40 AM, David Diamond wrote:

This is already been touched on, it is one thing to teach a skill but when, as they say the rubber hits the road, does the teacher practice what they teach or does fear set in?

-
Fear sets in, which is entirely natural, as anyone I've ever known who was sighted and lost it will tell you.

I really don't get how there is not an understanding that sighted O&M teachers can know how to teach skills that they, themselves, are not using moment to moment, because they don't need to.  And when you don't need to do something, constantly, to negotiate your world it doesn't "come naturally" in exception circumstances.

We all operate with the sensory palette that we actually possess, no matter how we came to possess it, and if one of those is suddenly removed due to a temporary circumstance it tends to naturally make one uneasy, regardless of what one may know about compensatory strategies for that loss, even with in-depth knowledge in the abstract.

Think about how it would be for you to suddenly have no hearing by artificial means and have to operate in that way for a couple of hours.  It's not a realistic facsimile of how someone who's deaf actually operates in daily life if they've been deaf for any period of time.  Instant deprivation of a sense puts anyone who's experiencing it way off-kilter, and I'm certain a lot of people here know that all too well.  But that's not representative of what it is to live with it long term, as you adjust and become more skilled.  That's why I don't see why the "let's blindfold 'em" schemes are believed to be helpful or representative of anything other than "the panicked stage of being quickly deprived of a sense you normally depend on."  And I've seen very few panicked people be particularly good at anything.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


David Diamond
 

Some don't even last that long, maybe 5 minutes if that. Grin. The trainer I mentioned it was said took the blind fold off after 30 seconds even though she was supposed to keep it on. s

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laura
Shumate
Sent: January 27, 2021 10:47 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

Hi David,
I told my X husband one day to close his eyes for 1 hour he didn't even last 30
minutes.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



On 1/28/21, David Diamond <Daviddiamond2019@outlook.com> wrote:
> A guide dog trainer told me when she wore the blind fold for one day
> at the end of the day she had such a headache when she had to drive
> home. After seeing nothing, all of a sudden she was flooded with
> visual information, it was over whelming to her.
>
> -----Original Message----
> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laura
> Shumate
> Sent: January 27, 2021 7:36 PM
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
> I don't see a problem I think teaching the sighted about Access
> Technology is a cool thing.
> I even had my dad who is sighted use Talk Back on his phone but he
> said after a day he wanted no more to do with it.
> Laura Shumate
> snowflake122188@gmail.com
> Business Phone: 254-300-7667
> Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684
>
>
>
> On 1/27/21, Glenn / Lenny <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
> > I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
> > In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the
> > blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or
> > should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of
> sight.
> > If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then
> > that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
> > Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those
> > who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or
> > gal down the street who does not even use the product. As far as
> > rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there
> would
> be no way to police it.
> > And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a
> > problem lister.
> > Glenn
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Randy Barnett
> > To: main@jfw.groups.io
> > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
> > Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
> >
> >
> > Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they
> > can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing
> > this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.
> >
> >
> > On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:
> >
> >
> > I agree with Brian. At one of the guide dog schools, one of the
> > days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after
> > Breakfast to supper. This is generally a total of 8 hours. Point?
> > So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight. Tie in? How
> > will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they
> > are not aware of them. It drove me nuts when someone on the
Microsoft
> > disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X. Darling, if I
> > could see it I would not be calling your department.
> >
> >
> >
> > From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
> > Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
> > To: main@jfw.groups.io
> > Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
> >
> >
> >
> > Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I
> > should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.
> >
> > I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in
> > the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
> > --
> >
> > Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
> >
> > One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
> > the shore for a very long time.
> >
> > ~ André Gide
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> --
> Laura Shumate
> snowflake122188@gmail.com
> Business Phone: 254-300-7667
> Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--


Glenn / Lenny
 


In Nebraska and Iowa and some other states, the state rehab agency makes all new staff spend their first three months of work, in training with blindfolds.
The wind up not being experts in Blindness skills, but fair, and confident in teaching the skills because they know how well they work.
I think that TVI  as well as O&M instructors should be required to do this as well.
Glenn
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2021 12:40 AM
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

Here is a twist, A group of O & M instructors were at a seminare with some of their students.  The power went out and they panicked.  They went so far as to put candles on the rug so they could be guided by the candle light.  One of their students offered to guide them, they declined.  Point?  This is already been touched on, it is one thing to teach a skill but when, as they say the rubber hits the road, does the teacher practice what they teach or does fear set in? I think it is excellent that a teacher of VIPs wants to join a list like this because it gives him or her insight into our world.   

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Glenn / Lenny
Sent: January 27, 2021 6:57 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.

In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of sight.

If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.

Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or gal down the street who does not even use the product.  As far as rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there would be no way to police it.

And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a problem lister.

Glenn

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM

Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.

On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:

I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?  So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling your department. 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


Glenn / Lenny
 

That sounds more like a complaint.
Perhaps she could sit in in a very dark room for five or ten minutes before
going home.
But if folks don't like it, they will find a way to make it have negative
consequences.
And if she really believed in its benefit, perhaps she would have thought of
that.

Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: "David Diamond" <Daviddiamond2019@outlook.com>
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2021 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member


A guide dog trainer told me when she wore the blind fold for one day at the
end of the day she had such a headache when she had to drive home. After
seeing nothing, all of a sudden she was flooded with visual information, it
was over whelming to her.

-----Original Message----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laura
Shumate
Sent: January 27, 2021 7:36 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

I don't see a problem I think teaching the sighted about Access Technology
is a
cool thing.
I even had my dad who is sighted use Talk Back on his phone but he said
after
a day he wanted no more to do with it.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



On 1/27/21, Glenn / Lenny <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
> I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
> In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the
> blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or
> should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of
sight.
> If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then
> that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
> Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those
> who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or
> gal down the street who does not even use the product. As far as
> rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there
would
be no way to police it.
> And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a
> problem lister.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randy Barnett
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
> Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they
> can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing
> this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.
>
>
> On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:
>
>
> I agree with Brian. At one of the guide dog schools, one of the
> days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after
> Breakfast to supper. This is generally a total of 8 hours. Point?
> So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight. Tie in? How
> will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they
> are not aware of them. It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft
> disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X. Darling, if I
> could see it I would not be calling your department.
>
>
>
> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
> Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
>
> Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I
> should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.
>
> I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in
> the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>
> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
> the shore for a very long time.
>
> ~ André Gide
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684


Glenn / Lenny
 


Exactly, the blindfold does not give anyone the experience of being Blind, for the reason you mentioned.
Glenn
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2021 12:44 AM
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

The school that requires all students to wear a blind fold does this so everyone is on a level playing field.  True instructors can do wear a blind fold, but they can take it off at the end of the day.  Apparently at one school, a trainer took the blind fold off right away because she panicked.  Must be nice to get your sight back and have that ability.  Grin. 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Randy Barnett
Sent: January 27, 2021 6:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.

On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:

I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?  So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I could see it I would not be calling your department. 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 

Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.

I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


 

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 11:52 AM, David Diamond wrote:
For the trainer to wear a blind fold it shows whether the dog is indeed guiding them properly or they are in a sense directing the dog.
-
David, in that context, it makes perfect sense.  It's a test of both trainer and trainee where one knows the actual end-user of the trainee has no sight.

My central point is that instant, artificial removal of a sense one has generally has little utility as far as "making someone know what it's like" for someone living, long term, with loss (or never having had) that same sense.   It certainly gives a sense, and an accurate one, of what it's like in the early days of someone who finds themselves having lost a sense very suddenly, which can be useful as a teaching tool, but it's a mistake to believe that what you get from the person so artificially deprived is any sense of what it's like to live with something permanent and over the long term.

I have had a number of people argue that I simply cannot know that it is to be a screen reader user unless I blindfold myself.  And my response is I cannot know what it is to be a screen reader user, period.  If I'm blindfolded, I'm instantly deprived of a sense I use to figure out what's happening in my world normally, including at times with a screen reader (I'd say most times, as I use things like Focus Highlight in NVDA and the analog in JAWS).  My normal modus operandi is as a sighted person, and I cannot and will not ever know, in any meaningful sense, what it is to be blind unless I were to become so.  And when I have to operate in an artificial state of sensory deprivation, that's not representative of "normal life" for those who are constantly in that state in any way.  The degree of frustration and panic may be representative of "a stage," but not of long term living, and that stage is far more fraught than what develops after compensatory skills are developed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


Glenn / Lenny
 

There has to be a benefit involved.
If for example, he thought he was going to lose much more sight, or all of
it, that may have motivated him more.
I think it was probably more beneficial for him to believe that you can do
something that he cannot.
The benefit for sighted trainers may be that they can keep their job.
I know that in Iowa and Nebraska, if new staff does not succeed their first
three months of training with them on, they lose their job.
Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: "Laura Shumate" <snowflake122188@gmail.com>
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2021 12:46 AM
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member


Hi David,
I told my X husband one day to close his eyes for 1 hour he didn't
even last 30 minutes.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



On 1/28/21, David Diamond <Daviddiamond2019@outlook.com> wrote:
A guide dog trainer told me when she wore the blind fold for one day at
the
end of the day she had such a headache when she had to drive home. After
seeing nothing, all of a sudden she was flooded with visual information,
it
was over whelming to her.

-----Original Message----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laura
Shumate
Sent: January 27, 2021 7:36 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

I don't see a problem I think teaching the sighted about Access
Technology
is a
cool thing.
I even had my dad who is sighted use Talk Back on his phone but he said
after
a day he wanted no more to do with it.
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



On 1/27/21, Glenn / Lenny <glennervin@cableone.net> wrote:
> I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
> In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the
> blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or
> should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent
of
sight.
> If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then
> that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
> Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those
> who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or
> gal down the street who does not even use the product. As far as
> rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there
would
be no way to police it.
> And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a
> problem lister.
> Glenn
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Randy Barnett
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
> Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they
> can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing
> this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.
>
>
> On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:
>
>
> I agree with Brian. At one of the guide dog schools, one of the
> days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after
> Breakfast to supper. This is generally a total of 8 hours. Point?
> So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight. Tie in? How
> will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they
> are not aware of them. It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft
> disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X. Darling, if I
> could see it I would not be calling your department.
>
>
>
> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian
Vogel
> Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
> To: main@jfw.groups.io
> Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
>
>
>
> Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I
> should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.
>
> I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in
> the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
> --
>
> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
>
> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
> the shore for a very long time.
>
> ~ André Gide
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Laura Shumate
snowflake122188@gmail.com
Business Phone: 254-300-7667
Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684











--


Gerald Levy
 


So now this has become a list for the discussion of blindness rehab and O&M training, neither of which has any connection whatsoever to JAWS. For those of you who insist on continuing this off-topic thread, I suggest joining the Blind-Talk list, which is a more general forum where just about anything is permissible for discussion.  To join, send a blank message to:


lind-talk+subscribe@groups.io


Gerald



On 1/28/2021 12:17 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:
That sounds more like a complaint.
Perhaps she could sit in in a very dark room for five or ten minutes before
going home.
But if folks don't like it, they will find a way to make it have negative
consequences.
And if she really believed in its benefit, perhaps she would have thought of
that.

Glenn
----- Original Message -----
From: "David Diamond" <Daviddiamond2019@...>
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, January 28, 2021 12:41 AM
Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member


A guide dog trainer told me when she wore the blind fold for one day at the
end of the day she had such a headache when she had to drive home.  After
seeing nothing, all of a sudden she was flooded with visual information, it
was over whelming to her.

 -----Original Message----
 From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Laura
 Shumate
 Sent: January 27, 2021 7:36 PM
 To: main@jfw.groups.io
 Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member

 I don't see a problem I think teaching the sighted about Access Technology
is a
 cool thing.
 I even had my dad who is sighted use Talk Back on his phone but he said
after
 a day he wanted no more to do with it.
 Laura Shumate
 snowflake122188@...
 Business Phone: 254-300-7667
 Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684



 On 1/27/21, Glenn / Lenny <glennervin@...> wrote:
 > I would make a different point about wearing blindfolds.
 > In any situation, but especially the Blind service industry, the
 > blindfolds typically are not worn for empathy, they actually are or
 > should be worn so the wearer can learn non-visual skills, independent of
 sight.
 > If a sighted person is going to be teaching Blindness skills, then
 > that person needs to have confidence in the skills being taught.
 > Also, as far as being on a Jaws or any other list oriented to those
 > who use the associated products, it could be anyone, like the guy or
 > gal down the street who does not even use the product.  As far as
 > rules go, although one could discriminate against the sighted, there
would
 be no way to police it.
 > And really, who cares who joins any list, as long as they aren't a
 > problem lister.
 > Glenn
 > ----- Original Message -----
 > From: Randy Barnett
 > To: main@jfw.groups.io
 > Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 8:39 PM
 > Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
 >
 >
 > Yes, AT instructors have to spend a week or two blindfolded so they
 > can empathize and understand what it is really like. without doing
 > this they aren't able to really understand what it is like for us.
 >
 >
 > On 1/27/2021 5:44 PM, David Diamond wrote:
 >
 >
 >   I agree with Brian.  At one of the guide dog schools, one of the
 > days all students have to wear a blind fold or night shade from after
 > Breakfast to supper.  This is generally a total of 8 hours.  Point?
 > So they rely on their guide dogs instead of their sight.  Tie in?  How
 > will the sighted know about the problems the VI sector have if they
 > are not aware of them.  It drove me nuts when someone on the Microsoft
 > disability help desk told me to click on the yellow X.  Darling, if I
 > could see it I would not be calling your department.
 >
 >
 >
 >   From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
 >   Sent: January 27, 2021 5:04 PM
 >   To: main@jfw.groups.io
 >   Subject: Re: Crosspost: Question about new member
 >
 >
 >
 >   Well, unless there's some rule banning the sighted (in which case I
 > should have been gone, long ago), I can't see this as a problem.
 >
 >   I think it's an excellent idea for sighted individuals working in
 > the VI sphere to join and learn from the groups related to same.
 >   --
 >
 >   Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
 >
 >   One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
 > the shore for a very long time.
 >
 >              ~ André Gide
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >
 >


 --
 Laura Shumate
 snowflake122188@...
 Business Phone: 254-300-7667
 Emergency Phone: 717-510-0684

















 

On Thu, Jan 28, 2021 at 01:00 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:
I suggest joining the Blind-Talk list,
-
Topic drift is endemic to any group, upon occasion.  And the JAWS group has historically allowed topics that are tangentially related, at best, to JAWS.  This group has never been strictly moderated.

I'd suggest that you, and anyone else who gets frustrated with a given topic on any group, learn how to use the tools that Groups.io gives every user to control the messages they receive to begin with, or keep receiving.  In this case, the Mute this Topic link at the end of every blessed message.

Controlling the Messages You Receive via E-Mail from Groups.io (docx)

 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide