textbook scanning for teaching purposes


Gudrun Brunot
 

Hi list: After reading all the posts about improving teaching and/or
sensitivity (very informative), I felt inclined to, I hope, start another
thread.

Over a year ago, I was contacted by an agency with the offer to take on a
Canadian online student of Swedish. The agency doesn't provide teaching
material. The teacher is supposed to buy his/her own, or use online
resources. Now began a time of trial and error for me: most books were in
.pdf format, of course, meaning hours of opening each one in different ways
to see how they behave--not so well, in most cases. How many of you have
tried to scan such textbooks or open the pdf file? The layout is not
consistent, some things are in newspaper columns, some in tables, there are
graphics. If it's a large book, what's the best parameters to select that
might result in something readable? A typical page of one of these books may
have a dialogue in Swedish, with corresponding sentences in English,
expressions or vocabulary in little boxes, neatly (at least, visually so)
arranged in columns or sidebars. The book I decided on was one that has the
dialogue, word list, and points to practice as audio files as well. Only,
there are more explanations in the written text than in the audio, so if I
want to be able to refer to them for my student, I listen and type and get
that part from the audio, then I must complement the lesson by scouring the
written text. So, I select text bits, cut and paste them into a notepad or
Word document, denuded of formatting. The dialogue pages with expressions
and vocabulary, forget it. I purchased the Express Scribe software from NCH,
and that makes it possible for me to use my pedal, listen, and type the
dialogue into a Word document.

I did find one book that was in MS Word format, but it was written in 1997
and had certain things in columns, other materials in different formats, so
it wasn't any easier, and I felt the one I chose was better for the student.
What I'm wondering is: am I missing some tricks that could make it possible
for me to open the pdf file without the scrambled text? I have Adobe PDF
Transformer, Kurzweil, and I've tried everything, text-based layout,
original layout....

It's one thing to get scrambled pages when you're studying, (yes, I know,
bad enough!) When you're teaching, that sort of hash browns spell
professional suicide. You absolutely need to know where the student is at
all times and be able to coach him and refer to what's written at that
particular spot.

How long is this book? About 500 pages...

So, any ideas as to getting through the process of trying out different
teaching material without gluing yourself to the office chair for, say, a
week? The silver lining for me here is that my student is absolutely a gem.

Gudrun

gudrunbrunot.com
Listen to samples and read about my services:
translation, interpreting, sound design, and listen to clips from my CD,
J-Walking.


Adrian Spratt
 

Gudrun,

I'm sure you're going to get lots of suggestions, but my first question is what software are you using? It's my sense that between JAWS 17 and Adobe Acrobat Reader DC, formatting has improved dramatically. Yesterday a 200-page PDF file created in 2002 that I found online came out incredibly well, and I didn't need to do any converting. I just waited for Adobe to finish processing the file, which took a few minutes, and then the entire thing appeared in reasonably good shape.

In a recent post, Ted mentioned that Office 2013 has a setting that enables users to import PDF files directly into MS Word. I have Office 2010, so I can only report his experience. I use OmniPage Ultra, which has a similar setting, but I haven't had occasion to use it lately.

In any event, you might want to tell the list the various programs and version numbers you're working with.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudrun Brunot [mailto:gbrunot@centurylink.net]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 4:06 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Hi list: After reading all the posts about improving teaching and/or
sensitivity (very informative), I felt inclined to, I hope, start another
thread.

Over a year ago, I was contacted by an agency with the offer to take on a
Canadian online student of Swedish. The agency doesn't provide teaching
material. The teacher is supposed to buy his/her own, or use online
resources. Now began a time of trial and error for me: most books were in
.pdf format, of course, meaning hours of opening each one in different ways
to see how they behave--not so well, in most cases. How many of you have
tried to scan such textbooks or open the pdf file? The layout is not
consistent, some things are in newspaper columns, some in tables, there are
graphics. If it's a large book, what's the best parameters to select that
might result in something readable? A typical page of one of these books may
have a dialogue in Swedish, with corresponding sentences in English,
expressions or vocabulary in little boxes, neatly (at least, visually so)
arranged in columns or sidebars. The book I decided on was one that has the
dialogue, word list, and points to practice as audio files as well. Only,
there are more explanations in the written text than in the audio, so if I
want to be able to refer to them for my student, I listen and type and get
that part from the audio, then I must complement the lesson by scouring the
written text. So, I select text bits, cut and paste them into a notepad or
Word document, denuded of formatting. The dialogue pages with expressions
and vocabulary, forget it. I purchased the Express Scribe software from NCH,
and that makes it possible for me to use my pedal, listen, and type the
dialogue into a Word document.

I did find one book that was in MS Word format, but it was written in 1997
and had certain things in columns, other materials in different formats, so
it wasn't any easier, and I felt the one I chose was better for the student.
What I'm wondering is: am I missing some tricks that could make it possible
for me to open the pdf file without the scrambled text? I have Adobe PDF
Transformer, Kurzweil, and I've tried everything, text-based layout,
original layout....

It's one thing to get scrambled pages when you're studying, (yes, I know,
bad enough!) When you're teaching, that sort of hash browns spell
professional suicide. You absolutely need to know where the student is at
all times and be able to coach him and refer to what's written at that
particular spot.

How long is this book? About 500 pages...

So, any ideas as to getting through the process of trying out different
teaching material without gluing yourself to the office chair for, say, a
week? The silver lining for me here is that my student is absolutely a gem.

Gudrun

gudrunbrunot.com
Listen to samples and read about my services:
translation, interpreting, sound design, and listen to clips from my CD,
J-Walking.


 

Gudrun,

          Aieeeeeee!! but you've asked a complicated series of questions but I will try to help out, or at least hope I can.  Some of this is coming from the perspective of having a number of my clients receive PDF files that, though they are scanned from books, were originally scanned as image PDFs either due to when they were scanned or complete ignorance of the availability of OCR scanning once it was commonly available.

          For making PDFs that my clients have all reported are accessible from MS-Word documents and the like, I've had great luck with PDF Creator, which you can download from pdfforge.org.  This software installs a virtual printer on your system, and you can print any file to it to convert it to a PDF.  With materials that originated as text materials it seems to do a very good job and the files are smaller, and seemingly cleaner, than what any of the Microsoft Office programs generate when you use the save as PDF feature.

          The next recommendation may be of no use to you because I do not believe that the software supports OCR in Swedish, but I've used only the free version and don't know if they have more languages supported in their paid version.  There is a company with the unfortunate name (these days, anyway) of Tracker Software, that produces a number of PDF processing tools, and I've been using their free version of PDF Viewer.  They definitely have a Swedish Language "language pack" that was just updated most recently a few days ago.  I don't think that comes with the free PDF Viewer.  Anyway, PDF Viewer has a built-in OCR capability for English, and I believe Spanish, German, and French (it's been too long since the install for me to remember).  I have to say that its OCR engine is simply incredible for nicely scanned PDFs from books and is really good even for some pretty sketchy scans.  You might want to check with them with regard to what you need to scan into OCR form and/or send them a few samples.  I have been incredibly pleased with the results I've gotten and all of my clients who receive image PDFs (which is virtually every one that's in a college setting) now has this installed on their machines so that they can independently OCR process image PDFs they know have originated from scans of print materials.  It doesn't play well with JAWS as a reader, but it does as far as opening files, OCR processing them, and saving them after processing.

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Okay, I have JAWS 16 and 17, Windows 7, Kurzweil version 2013, Adobe DC.
Now, the software I had when I first started trying these books out are
probably the same, except it was Adobe version 11 and, probably, JAWS 16.

Sorry for mitting that info, and thanks for pointing that out.

I'll try opening the file with Adobe DC and Jaws 17 and see how it handles
the bilingual aspect and the formatting. Wouldn't that be something if that
worked?

Gudrun


Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Spratt [mailto:Adrian@AdrianSpratt.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 1:24 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Gudrun,

I'm sure you're going to get lots of suggestions, but my first question is
what software are you using? It's my sense that between JAWS 17 and Adobe
Acrobat Reader DC, formatting has improved dramatically. Yesterday a
200-page PDF file created in 2002 that I found online came out incredibly
well, and I didn't need to do any converting. I just waited for Adobe to
finish processing the file, which took a few minutes, and then the entire
thing appeared in reasonably good shape.

In a recent post, Ted mentioned that Office 2013 has a setting that enables
users to import PDF files directly into MS Word. I have Office 2010, so I
can only report his experience. I use OmniPage Ultra, which has a similar
setting, but I haven't had occasion to use it lately.

In any event, you might want to tell the list the various programs and
version numbers you're working with.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudrun Brunot [mailto:gbrunot@centurylink.net]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 4:06 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Hi list: After reading all the posts about improving teaching and/or
sensitivity (very informative), I felt inclined to, I hope, start another
thread.

Over a year ago, I was contacted by an agency with the offer to take on a
Canadian online student of Swedish. The agency doesn't provide teaching
material. The teacher is supposed to buy his/her own, or use online
resources. Now began a time of trial and error for me: most books were in
.pdf format, of course, meaning hours of opening each one in different ways
to see how they behave--not so well, in most cases. How many of you have
tried to scan such textbooks or open the pdf file? The layout is not
consistent, some things are in newspaper columns, some in tables, there are
graphics. If it's a large book, what's the best parameters to select that
might result in something readable? A typical page of one of these books may
have a dialogue in Swedish, with corresponding sentences in English,
expressions or vocabulary in little boxes, neatly (at least, visually so)
arranged in columns or sidebars. The book I decided on was one that has the
dialogue, word list, and points to practice as audio files as well. Only,
there are more explanations in the written text than in the audio, so if I
want to be able to refer to them for my student, I listen and type and get
that part from the audio, then I must complement the lesson by scouring the
written text. So, I select text bits, cut and paste them into a notepad or
Word document, denuded of formatting. The dialogue pages with expressions
and vocabulary, forget it. I purchased the Express Scribe software from NCH,
and that makes it possible for me to use my pedal, listen, and type the
dialogue into a Word document.

I did find one book that was in MS Word format, but it was written in 1997
and had certain things in columns, other materials in different formats, so
it wasn't any easier, and I felt the one I chose was better for the student.
What I'm wondering is: am I missing some tricks that could make it possible
for me to open the pdf file without the scrambled text? I have Adobe PDF
Transformer, Kurzweil, and I've tried everything, text-based layout,
original layout....

It's one thing to get scrambled pages when you're studying, (yes, I know,
bad enough!) When you're teaching, that sort of hash browns spell
professional suicide. You absolutely need to know where the student is at
all times and be able to coach him and refer to what's written at that
particular spot.

How long is this book? About 500 pages...

So, any ideas as to getting through the process of trying out different
teaching material without gluing yourself to the office chair for, say, a
week? The silver lining for me here is that my student is absolutely a gem.

Gudrun

gudrunbrunot.com
Listen to samples and read about my services:
translation, interpreting, sound design, and listen to clips from my CD,
J-Walking.


Gudrun Brunot
 

Thanks, Brian, I'll check it out.


Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 1:36 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Gudrun,

Aieeeeeee!! but you've asked a complicated series of questions but I will try to help out, or at least hope I can. Some of this is coming from the perspective of having a number of my clients receive PDF files that, though they are scanned from books, were originally scanned as image PDFs either due to when they were scanned or complete ignorance of the availability of OCR scanning once it was commonly available.

For making PDFs that my clients have all reported are accessible from MS-Word documents and the like, I've had great luck with PDF Creator, which you can download from pdfforge.org. This software installs a virtual printer on your system, and you can print any file to it to convert it to a PDF. With materials that originated as text materials it seems to do a very good job and the files are smaller, and seemingly cleaner, than what any of the Microsoft Office programs generate when you use the save as PDF feature.

The next recommendation may be of no use to you because I do not believe that the software supports OCR in Swedish, but I've used only the free version and don't know if they have more languages supported in their paid version. There is a company with the unfortunate name (these days, anyway) of Tracker Software <http://tracker-software.com/> , that produces a number of PDF processing tools, and I've been using their free version of PDF Viewer. They definitely have a Swedish Language "language pack" that was just updated most recently a few days ago. I don't think that comes with the free PDF Viewer. Anyway, PDF Viewer has a built-in OCR capability for English, and I believe Spanish, German, and French (it's been too long since the install for me to remember). I have to say that its OCR engine is simply incredible for nicely scanned PDFs from books and is really good even for some pretty sketchy scans. You might want to check with them with regard to what you need to scan into OCR form and/or send them a few samples. I have been incredibly pleased with the results I've gotten and all of my clients who receive image PDFs (which is virtually every one that's in a college setting) now has this installed on their machines so that they can independently OCR process image PDFs they know have originated from scans of print materials. It doesn't play well with JAWS as a reader, but it does as far as opening files, OCR processing them, and saving them after processing.

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Hey Adrian and all:

I tried opening the book with Adobe DC in JAWS 17. Big hang. Probably the
size of the thing. I restarted, same problem. It totally froze JAWS and
paralyzed my system, and hitting alt-tab took forever to result in any
feedback at all, and keystrokes and cursor moves were mostly useless.

Problem could be, as Brian suggested, the way this book was prepared.

Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Adrian Spratt [mailto:Adrian@AdrianSpratt.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 1:24 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Gudrun,

I'm sure you're going to get lots of suggestions, but my first question is
what software are you using? It's my sense that between JAWS 17 and Adobe
Acrobat Reader DC, formatting has improved dramatically. Yesterday a
200-page PDF file created in 2002 that I found online came out incredibly
well, and I didn't need to do any converting. I just waited for Adobe to
finish processing the file, which took a few minutes, and then the entire
thing appeared in reasonably good shape.

In a recent post, Ted mentioned that Office 2013 has a setting that enables
users to import PDF files directly into MS Word. I have Office 2010, so I
can only report his experience. I use OmniPage Ultra, which has a similar
setting, but I haven't had occasion to use it lately.

In any event, you might want to tell the list the various programs and
version numbers you're working with.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudrun Brunot [mailto:gbrunot@centurylink.net]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 4:06 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Hi list: After reading all the posts about improving teaching and/or
sensitivity (very informative), I felt inclined to, I hope, start another
thread.

Over a year ago, I was contacted by an agency with the offer to take on a
Canadian online student of Swedish. The agency doesn't provide teaching
material. The teacher is supposed to buy his/her own, or use online
resources. Now began a time of trial and error for me: most books were in
.pdf format, of course, meaning hours of opening each one in different ways
to see how they behave--not so well, in most cases. How many of you have
tried to scan such textbooks or open the pdf file? The layout is not
consistent, some things are in newspaper columns, some in tables, there are
graphics. If it's a large book, what's the best parameters to select that
might result in something readable? A typical page of one of these books may
have a dialogue in Swedish, with corresponding sentences in English,
expressions or vocabulary in little boxes, neatly (at least, visually so)
arranged in columns or sidebars. The book I decided on was one that has the
dialogue, word list, and points to practice as audio files as well. Only,
there are more explanations in the written text than in the audio, so if I
want to be able to refer to them for my student, I listen and type and get
that part from the audio, then I must complement the lesson by scouring the
written text. So, I select text bits, cut and paste them into a notepad or
Word document, denuded of formatting. The dialogue pages with expressions
and vocabulary, forget it. I purchased the Express Scribe software from NCH,
and that makes it possible for me to use my pedal, listen, and type the
dialogue into a Word document.

I did find one book that was in MS Word format, but it was written in 1997
and had certain things in columns, other materials in different formats, so
it wasn't any easier, and I felt the one I chose was better for the student.
What I'm wondering is: am I missing some tricks that could make it possible
for me to open the pdf file without the scrambled text? I have Adobe PDF
Transformer, Kurzweil, and I've tried everything, text-based layout,
original layout....

It's one thing to get scrambled pages when you're studying, (yes, I know,
bad enough!) When you're teaching, that sort of hash browns spell
professional suicide. You absolutely need to know where the student is at
all times and be able to coach him and refer to what's written at that
particular spot.

How long is this book? About 500 pages...

So, any ideas as to getting through the process of trying out different
teaching material without gluing yourself to the office chair for, say, a
week? The silver lining for me here is that my student is absolutely a gem.

Gudrun

gudrunbrunot.com
Listen to samples and read about my services:
translation, interpreting, sound design, and listen to clips from my CD,
J-Walking.


Gudrun Brunot
 

Brian, is the PDF Viewer you mention different from PDF Exchange viewer?


Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 1:36 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Gudrun,

Aieeeeeee!! but you've asked a complicated series of questions but I will try to help out, or at least hope I can. Some of this is coming from the perspective of having a number of my clients receive PDF files that, though they are scanned from books, were originally scanned as image PDFs either due to when they were scanned or complete ignorance of the availability of OCR scanning once it was commonly available.

For making PDFs that my clients have all reported are accessible from MS-Word documents and the like, I've had great luck with PDF Creator, which you can download from pdfforge.org. This software installs a virtual printer on your system, and you can print any file to it to convert it to a PDF. With materials that originated as text materials it seems to do a very good job and the files are smaller, and seemingly cleaner, than what any of the Microsoft Office programs generate when you use the save as PDF feature.

The next recommendation may be of no use to you because I do not believe that the software supports OCR in Swedish, but I've used only the free version and don't know if they have more languages supported in their paid version. There is a company with the unfortunate name (these days, anyway) of Tracker Software <http://tracker-software.com/> , that produces a number of PDF processing tools, and I've been using their free version of PDF Viewer. They definitely have a Swedish Language "language pack" that was just updated most recently a few days ago. I don't think that comes with the free PDF Viewer. Anyway, PDF Viewer has a built-in OCR capability for English, and I believe Spanish, German, and French (it's been too long since the install for me to remember). I have to say that its OCR engine is simply incredible for nicely scanned PDFs from books and is really good even for some pretty sketchy scans. You might want to check with them with regard to what you need to scan into OCR form and/or send them a few samples. I have been incredibly pleased with the results I've gotten and all of my clients who receive image PDFs (which is virtually every one that's in a college setting) now has this installed on their machines so that they can independently OCR process image PDFs they know have originated from scans of print materials. It doesn't play well with JAWS as a reader, but it does as far as opening files, OCR processing them, and saving them after processing.

Brian


 

Gudrun,

       Sorry, "my bad" as they say.  I thought I'd typed PDF XChange Viewer, but omitted the actual name.  That is the viewer with OCR to which I made reference.

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Hey, Brian, I tried it. I opened the file with pdf Exchange viewer, did control-shift-c for recognition. It took about 20 minutes (704 pages!) I saved the file under a revised name. I opened the resaved file with Adobe DC. Instead of the accessibility questions (raw print stream, left to right etc.), I get the title page, at the bottom of which is some blurb about Cloud document storage that I've never seen in the file before. I can't get past that. I can click on "learn more" on that title page, an action that brings up Internet Explorer, but I can't get rid of the blurb's appearance in the file, and I can't go to another page in the pdf file either.

Ain't technology great!

Cheers,

Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 6:31 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Gudrun,

Sorry, "my bad" as they say. I thought I'd typed PDF XChange Viewer, but omitted the actual name. That is the viewer with OCR to which I made reference.

Brian


 

Gudrun,

         Not that I necessarily think the result will be better, but if you can share the file with me I'll take a look at it.  Actually, 20 minutes for 704 pages seems remarkably fast, it's taken me much longer than that to do shorter files, but a lot of that depends on the original file itself.

         The only thing worse than technology is the lack of technology, and sometimes the degree of worse is very, very little!!

Brian


Angel
 


You wouldn't say that if technology caused you to be able to read a printed page.  When without technology you couldn't.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Gudrun,

         Not that I necessarily think the result will be better, but if you can share the file with me I'll take a look at it.  Actually, 20 minutes for 704 pages seems remarkably fast, it's taken me much longer than that to do shorter files, but a lot of that depends on the original file itself.

         The only thing worse than technology is the lack of technology, and sometimes the degree of worse is very, very little!!

Brian


 

Angel,



Please, just once, try giving me a reading where both history in the thread and tone are taken into account.  You might get the intended humor.


Brian



Gudrun Brunot
 

I hear you, Angel. Only, I often have to work with the printed page for submission to sighted people, not just read it for my own benefit or pleasure. There's a big difference between the twain when you must present a job that is expected to be true to the original layout as opposed to just being well translated, or, as I was mentioning in another thread, offer and present material to a student and refer to precise exercises and examples, or page numbers.

As a reader, I agree wholeheartedly that technology has brought us tremendously increased access to useful and entertaining material. The working arena, with its increased dependence on the graphics user interface, plus the ease with which sighted computer users can assemble publishable material, , puts us at a greater, and bleaker, disadvantage. I can't tell you how many translation job offers I've had to reject, simply because I cannot guarantee exact rendition of formats, or ensure that the panes of a certain brochure will follow in the correct order or be associated with the right picture. The information blackout, as Brian Vogel calls it (I think), is the ever-present ghost, or monster, ready to bite you in the toes, preferably at midnight when you're struggling to meet a deadline. Maybe I should switch from translation to horror fiction writing...

Cheers,


Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Angel [mailto:angel238@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 12:03 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

You wouldn't say that if technology caused you to be able to read a printed page. When without technology you couldn't.

----- Original Message -----
From: Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
To: jfw@groups.io
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 11:06 PM
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes


Gudrun,

Not that I necessarily think the result will be better, but if you can share the file with me I'll take a look at it. Actually, 20 minutes for 704 pages seems remarkably fast, it's taken me much longer than that to do shorter files, but a lot of that depends on the original file itself.

The only thing worse than technology is the lack of technology, and sometimes the degree of worse is very, very little!!

Brian


 

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 01:39 pm, Gudrun Brunot <gbrunot@...> wrote:
information blackout

 I can't, and don't take credit for that particularly succinct and accurate turn of phrase.  That goes to Joseph Lee.

Gudrun, not that no one works alone, but most of us don't.  With your talents a collaboration might solve that "toe biting" provided the person you're working with is on the same metaphorical page as you are about deadlines.  There are times when there is no substitute for sight when speed, and lack of frustration, are of the essence for a project.  What you bring to the table goes beyond mere editing, and getting a decent editor/format-checker would, I hope, be possible.  I'd love to be able to do that with someone.  A friend of mine is an author, but her work goes through "standard editing" as part of the publication process.  Being able to produce press-ready material is a real challenge for everyone.

Brian, been there, done that on a limited basis


Gudrun Brunot
 

Brian, I meant to reply to this very nice post of yours. Yes, collaboration would be great, but I haven't quite found the ideal constellation yet. My partner, Rob, is very helpful, has a great eye for graphical aspects. Unfortunately, he gets very upset with "the system not working right," That is, when there is no feedback with JAWS in some situations, that Adobe hangs when I'm opening a huge file from someone, etc. If I can give him very specific situations, like "I'm having to fill in a forms for a translation agency that wants me to possibly work for them, but I can't fill out the subject areas I'm supposed to check off," stuff like that, he's fine. But if it turns into a run-around and wild goose chase with information blackout, system hangs, and so forth, he gets really furious, and I hate having him get so worked up. I tell him not to let it eat his liver, and he hears me, but it doesn't help in the final outcome. It takes what we Swedes call "ice in the stomach" to deal with not-so-perfect accessibility.

I hear what you say, nothing equals sight when it comes to speed and frustration avoidance when we're up against deadlines. I've had a reader, Sandra, for a while, and I saved all those videos to describe, programs with tricky installations, hard-to-read manuals, agency online sign-up sheets (they want you to work for them, and "will you please click here to fill out our application for new translators..." I had a transcription/translation project consisting of 86 files, and she and I went through them together to make sure all the names corresponded to what the source files were called, how long each file was according to my time stamps and actual file lengths, etc.... Rob would have gone nuts having to deal with that. She took a lot of that frustration off our minds here. These are things that may look so awful to the person who hires you. They may actually be pretty negligible as far as practical importance, and most of your work may be perfect. Only, those little lapses may give the impression of sloppiness and does not at all reflect the hours and hours you've actually spent making sure that the stuff that's crucial is absolutely perfect. She has now gotten other work, so she's no longer available.

Anyway, thanks for those kind words.

I did uninstall Adobe DC and installed Adobe XI. I did try opening that file. It opened all right, and Adobe starting going through the typical recognition process. So, thinking I could do some other things while that was happening,, I alt-tabbed away, and, ooops, system hang. I tried closing programs, but the response was like 20 seconds off. I hit as many alt-f4 as I could, went to have dinner and listened to the radio for an hour or two. Now, my system is responding as normal. I'll try once more to open that file, and leave the recognition process alone, without making any attempts at simultaneous activities.

Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 2:59 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 01:39 pm, Gudrun Brunot <gbrunot@centurylink.net> wrote:


information blackout

I can't, and don't take credit for that particularly succinct and accurate turn of phrase. That goes to Joseph Lee.

Gudrun, not that no one works alone, but most of us don't. With your talents a collaboration might solve that "toe biting" provided the person you're working with is on the same metaphorical page as you are about deadlines. There are times when there is no substitute for sight when speed, and lack of frustration, are of the essence for a project. What you bring to the table goes beyond mere editing, and getting a decent editor/format-checker would, I hope, be possible. I'd love to be able to do that with someone. A friend of mine is an author, but her work goes through "standard editing" as part of the publication process. Being able to produce press-ready material is a real challenge for everyone.

Brian, been there, done that on a limited basis


Joseph Sickora
 

On 2/15/16, Gudrun Brunot <gbrunot@centurylink.net> wrote:
Brian, I meant to reply to this very nice post of yours. Yes, collaboration
would be great, but I haven't quite found the ideal constellation yet. My
partner, Rob, is very helpful, has a great eye for graphical aspects.
Unfortunately, he gets very upset with "the system not working right," That
is, when there is no feedback with JAWS in some situations, that Adobe hangs
when I'm opening a huge file from someone, etc. If I can give him very
specific situations, like "I'm having to fill in a forms for a translation
agency that wants me to possibly work for them, but I can't fill out the
subject areas I'm supposed to check off," stuff like that, he's fine. But if
it turns into a run-around and wild goose chase with information blackout,
system hangs, and so forth, he gets really furious, and I hate having him
get so worked up. I tell him not to let it eat his liver, and he hears me,
but it doesn't help in the final outcome. It takes what we Swedes call "ice
in the stomach" to deal with not-so-perfect accessibility.

I hear what you say, nothing equals sight when it comes to speed and
frustration avoidance when we're up against deadlines. I've had a reader,
Sandra, for a while, and I saved all those videos to describe, programs with
tricky installations, hard-to-read manuals, agency online sign-up sheets
(they want you to work for them, and "will you please click here to fill out
our application for new translators..." I had a transcription/translation
project consisting of 86 files, and she and I went through them together to
make sure all the names corresponded to what the source files were called,
how long each file was according to my time stamps and actual file lengths,
etc.... Rob would have gone nuts having to deal with that. She took a lot of
that frustration off our minds here. These are things that may look so awful
to the person who hires you. They may actually be pretty negligible as far
as practical importance, and most of your work may be perfect. Only, those
little lapses may give the impression of sloppiness and does not at all
reflect the hours and hours you've actually spent making sure that the stuff
that's crucial is absolutely perfect. She has now gotten other work, so
she's no longer available.

Anyway, thanks for those kind words.

I did uninstall Adobe DC and installed Adobe XI. I did try opening that
file. It opened all right, and Adobe starting going through the typical
recognition process. So, thinking I could do some other things while that
was happening,, I alt-tabbed away, and, ooops, system hang. I tried closing
programs, but the response was like 20 seconds off. I hit as many alt-f4 as
I could, went to have dinner and listened to the radio for an hour or two.
Now, my system is responding as normal. I'll try once more to open that
file, and leave the recognition process alone, without making any attempts
at simultaneous activities.

Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, February 06, 2016 2:59 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

On Sat, Feb 6, 2016 at 01:39 pm, Gudrun Brunot <gbrunot@centurylink.net>
wrote:


information blackout

I can't, and don't take credit for that particularly succinct and accurate
turn of phrase. That goes to Joseph Lee.

Gudrun, not that no one works alone, but most of us don't. With your
talents a collaboration might solve that "toe biting" provided the person
you're working with is on the same metaphorical page as you are about
deadlines. There are times when there is no substitute for sight when
speed, and lack of frustration, are of the essence for a project. What you
bring to the table goes beyond mere editing, and getting a decent
editor/format-checker would, I hope, be possible. I'd love to be able to do
that with someone. A friend of mine is an author, but her work goes through
"standard editing" as part of the publication process. Being able to
produce press-ready material is a real challenge for everyone.

Brian, been there, done that on a limited basis






If the quality can be good and the end product be formated so you can
navigate throught it, I'm all for it. Astime goes by and I find I
can't read things like the numbers of my checks, I sometimes wonder
whether the capabilities of scanners are oversold. When I converse
with people about their scanning experiences, the ability to navigate
through whatever has been scanned through throws our conversation off.
I often wonder whre we would be if the talking Optacon had been fully
developed. When I read newspaper or magazine copy, as slow as it was,
I realized that I had to go to the proper column on the next page to
contine the specific story I was reading. So when I scan with my
openbook, my wish is to read a particular story in its entirety and
skip over the columns I don't want. This is quite challenging.

Thank you for your post. I hope you aren't anoyed by my thoughts.

Sincerely

Joseph Sickora


 

Gudrun,

            Thanks for the kind words.  You are in a uniquely thorny position as far as scanning goes because you're trying to work in material that is in two separate languages.  OCR has gotten extremely good, even on pretty sketchy copy, for material in a single language but I don't know whether the same can be said for things in two languages.  As you know from our private exchanges, I've tried scanning one of the books you refer to in both Swedish and English and neither gives satisfactory results in both languages at once.

            This is an instance where you could be the avant garde for your own needs and those of others, too.  I know you've given Tracker Software's PDF XChange Viewer a try, and what they provide for free is pretty remarkable, but not enough to get what you need.  I do not know whether one of their paid products might work, but it would be worth getting in touch with them to ask about that.  If they claim that one would, I think it would be entirely reasonable to ask them to process a single file using that software and returning the result to you so that you can actually evaluate the result before considering purchase.  I can't believe that the need for bilingual OCR is frequent, but it certainly is something that's going to occur for someone other than yourself.  I would be shocked if someone has not developed something that supports this, but I'd have to do the same digging as you will to determine who.

             As to finding the right assistant, no matter how much we love our loved ones and they love us in return, they're generally not the best option for several reasons.  This is particularly so if someone is easily frustrated with technology that doesn't function perfectly all the time.  A big part of it all is dealing with the inevitable issues that arise when you are putting software layer upon software layer and expecting them all to seamlessly communicate with each other.  While we've come a long way in that department, you know better than most that we're not "there yet" as far as true seamlessness goes.

             These days you can pretty much configure monolingual OCR to handle most of the formatting eventualities you typically see in print.  Most can be easily set up to handle columns like in a newspaper, or tables.  There are still problems, though, when a table is presented in columns but with no structure surrounding the table itself.  Then the software has to make a guess as to whether it's something in "newspaper columnar" format or "table row and columnar" format and that's not easy to do absent clear delimiters that suggest one versus the other.

Brian


Debbie Kessler
 

Haven't been following this thread much. You might contact the high tech center training unit in Cupertino. They are always coming up with solutions for alternate media at the college level.

DjAndChaz 
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Gudrun,

            Thanks for the kind words.  You are in a uniquely thorny position as far as scanning goes because you're trying to work in material that is in two separate languages.  OCR has gotten extremely good, even on pretty sketchy copy, for material in a single language but I don't know whether the same can be said for things in two languages.  As you know from our private exchanges, I've tried scanning one of the books you refer to in both Swedish and English and neither gives satisfactory results in both languages at once.

            This is an instance where you could be the avant garde for your own needs and those of others, too.  I know you've given Tracker Software's PDF XChange Viewer a try, and what they provide for free is pretty remarkable, but not enough to get what you need.  I do not know whether one of their paid products might work, but it would be worth getting in touch with them to ask about that.  If they claim that one would, I think it would be entirely reasonable to ask them to process a single file using that software and returning the result to you so that you can actually evaluate the result before considering purchase.  I can't believe that the need for bilingual OCR is frequent, but it certainly is something that's going to occur for someone other than yourself.  I would be shocked if someone has not developed something that supports this, but I'd have to do the same digging as you will to determine who.

             As to finding the right assistant, no matter how much we love our loved ones and they love us in return, they're generally not the best option for several reasons.  This is particularly so if someone is easily frustrated with technology that doesn't function perfectly all the time.  A big part of it all is dealing with the inevitable issues that arise when you are putting software layer upon software layer and expecting them all to seamlessly communicate with each other.  While we've come a long way in that department, you know better than most that we're not "there yet" as far as true seamlessness goes.

             These days you can pretty much configure monolingual OCR to handle most of the formatting eventualities you typically see in print.  Most can be easily set up to handle columns like in a newspaper, or tables.  There are still problems, though, when a table is presented in columns but with no structure surrounding the table itself.  Then the software has to make a guess as to whether it's something in "newspaper columnar" format or "table row and columnar" format and that's not easy to do absent clear delimiters that suggest one versus the other.

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Thanks, Debbie, for that tip. I've taken a look of what they offer. They have a lot of material, but much is from 2012 or earlier. I'll drop them a line, though.



Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Kessler [mailto:jessesgirl@earthlink.net]
Sent: Saturday, February 20, 2016 5:40 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: textbook scanning for teaching purposes

Haven't been following this thread much. You might contact the high tech center training unit in Cupertino. They are always coming up with solutions for alternate media at the college level.

DjAndChaz
Sent from my iPhone

On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:46 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:



Gudrun,

Thanks for the kind words. You are in a uniquely thorny position as far as scanning goes because you're trying to work in material that is in two separate languages. OCR has gotten extremely good, even on pretty sketchy copy, for material in a single language but I don't know whether the same can be said for things in two languages. As you know from our private exchanges, I've tried scanning one of the books you refer to in both Swedish and English and neither gives satisfactory results in both languages at once.

This is an instance where you could be the avant garde for your own needs and those of others, too. I know you've given Tracker Software's PDF XChange Viewer a try, and what they provide for free is pretty remarkable, but not enough to get what you need. I do not know whether one of their paid products might work, but it would be worth getting in touch with them to ask about that. If they claim that one would, I think it would be entirely reasonable to ask them to process a single file using that software and returning the result to you so that you can actually evaluate the result before considering purchase. I can't believe that the need for bilingual OCR is frequent, but it certainly is something that's going to occur for someone other than yourself. I would be shocked if someone has not developed something that supports this, but I'd have to do the same digging as you will to determine who.

As to finding the right assistant, no matter how much we love our loved ones and they love us in return, they're generally not the best option for several reasons. This is particularly so if someone is easily frustrated with technology that doesn't function perfectly all the time. A big part of it all is dealing with the inevitable issues that arise when you are putting software layer upon software layer and expecting them all to seamlessly communicate with each other. While we've come a long way in that department, you know better than most that we're not "there yet" as far as true seamlessness goes.

These days you can pretty much configure monolingual OCR to handle most of the formatting eventualities you typically see in print. Most can be easily set up to handle columns like in a newspaper, or tables. There are still problems, though, when a table is presented in columns but with no structure surrounding the table itself. Then the software has to make a guess as to whether it's something in "newspaper columnar" format or "table row and columnar" format and that's not easy to do absent clear delimiters that suggest one versus the other.

Brian