VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.


 

Hi,

 

Well, just now I must say I had a pretty negative experience with tech support for VFO. I don't want to name the female support person I spoke with, but I asked her if they also had support people that are sighted because my Jaws 18 on this PC suddenly decided not to let me read/review certain information with the Jaws cursor in some applications I use which just a few days ago I could read/review. This is in Sage 50 which I have been using for years and years. In this program when I enter the information from an invoice there is an area beneath the spreadsheet like table where I put quantity, description, cost, tax code etc. where it displays the subtotal, the total amount of tax and the total. I could always go there with the Jaws cursor and find these amounts, now I can't. I only asked if there was sighted support because a sighted person of course could see immediately what I am talking about. To make a long story short, this young lady told me that just because she and the other support staff was blind or visually  impaired they were less competent and she did so in a tone which meant she had her panties in a very tight wad and apparently was very offended that I asked for sighted help. I explained to her that I of course was also blind and did not imply she was not competent but simply that my issue could be better explained to somebody who could in fact see that part of the screen you could not get to with Jaws. I explained that I also knew to some degree what I was talking about since I was a Jaws user for 28 years at which point she basically laughed at me and told me Jaws was not even around 28 years ago. She told me that she had been with Freedom Scientific since 2001 and Jaws had only been around since 1998 later she said 1995. I just said that there was life before Windows and that I didn't necessarily mean I was a Jaws for Windows user for 28 years, but a Jaws user. I guess she may need a lesson in the corporate history of VFO/Freedom Scientific/Henter-Joyce.

Anyways, this is just another example how different experiences can be, you can get somebody with tons of experience in basic day-to-day stuff, then you can get somebody with excellent training but little experience and you somtimes get really lucky and you get somebody who has a ton of experience and also a bunch of excellent training.

 

Regards,

Sieghard

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 12:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

 

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 12:37 pm, Carolyn Arnold wrote:

My experience with the now, VFO Technical Support has been world class.

I actually haven't had need to contact technical support since the acquisition of FS by VFO.  I hasten to add that my observation about many technical support reps being neither technical nor supportive was broad and general, not aimed at VFO in any way.

There are some really marvelous tech support folks out there, and when I get one I make sure they know it and if I'm surveyed afterward, whether on the phone after a session or by e-mail later, I make sure that whoever is collecting these knows it, too.   The same, of course, applies on the opposite end of the spectrum, too.  If someone's "fair to middlin'" then I may or may not respond to a survey. 
--
Brian        Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

        Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built.  Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


 

It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired.  What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time.  When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it.  If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not).  But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian        Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

        Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built.  Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Randy Barnett <randy@...>
 

I do most anything I need too but you are right there is no doubt that sight helps and is critical in some situations.

On 5/18/2017 4:23 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired.  What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time.  When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it.  If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not).  But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian        Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

        Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built.  Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.



 

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 04:27 pm, Randy Barnett wrote:
I do most anything I need too but you are right there is no doubt that sight helps and is critical in some situations.

Thank you very much for reflecting back what I had tried to communicate.  It makes me confident that I hit my target.

This is definitely not about encouraging dependence or questioning an individual's abilities.  It's really is a tool to situation feature matching exercise when time is of the essence. 

As an aside, it's been interesting to me over time as I've read folks who are blind and who are computer programmers.  Having been one I would never, ever have thought that this would be possible while retaining one's sanity at the same time.  I was wrong, and it's fascinating to see both the similarities and differences in how the whole task is approached depending on an individual's sensory palette.
--
Brian        Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

        Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built.  Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Mike B. <mb69mach1@...>
 


Hi Brian,
 
I've been totally blind for 36 years out of the 59 years on this planet, & no truer words have ever been spoken! Everything you said is 100% accurate, & noone should take issue with what you stated.
5Take care.
Mike
Sent from my iBarstool.  Go Dodgers!

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:23 PM
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired.  What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time.  When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it.  If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not).  But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian        Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

        Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built.  Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Carolyn Arnold <4carolyna@...>
 

Right, Brian - it is just a matter of reality. She needs to learn to live with it, live, laugh - it's a big world.

Bye for now,

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 7:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired. What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time. When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it. If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not). But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit



Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built. Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Carolyn Arnold <4carolyna@...>
 

My husband says essentially what you do, Brian. He couldn't believe a lot of stuff could happen at first - blew his mind to talk to Richard Oehm.

Bye for now,

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 7:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 04:27 pm, Randy Barnett wrote:


I do most anything I need too but you are right there is no doubt that sight helps and is critical in some situations.

Thank you very much for reflecting back what I had tried to communicate. It makes me confident that I hit my target.

This is definitely not about encouraging dependence or questioning an individual's abilities. It's really is a tool to situation feature matching exercise when time is of the essence.

As an aside, it's been interesting to me over time as I've read folks who are blind and who are computer programmers. Having been one I would never, ever have thought that this would be possible while retaining one's sanity at the same time. I was wrong, and it's fascinating to see both the similarities and differences in how the whole task is approached depending on an individual's sensory palette.
--
Brian Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit



Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built. Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Shannon
 

Here here to that. It happens to me every day. Hey, what's going on over here could you come look is a frequent question out of my mouth.

Sent from my iPhone

On May 18, 2017, at 6:23 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired.  What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time.  When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it.  If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not).  But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian        Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

        Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built.  Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Gudrun Brunot
 

Oh, Brian, thank you for these words! I once called Freedom Scientific Tech support and got one visually equipped person who could immediately help me because he could see what was going on. I later had a problem with the WordFinder program (a translation dictionary tool) for which JAWS wasn't working too efficiently. I called Freedom Scientific and got a tech support assistant who, from what I could tell, was not visually equipped. I explained that, perhaps, a sighted person would be more able to see what JAWS should be showing and wasn't, and provide helpful feedback as to what I could do to have it work better. The woman got very huffy, obviously deeply insulted. I told her there was a reason for my asking for a sighted assistant, implying no slur to blind tech support people, but to a situation where sight might be helpful, and there was no need to get huffy. Obviously, she was not impressed...



Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired. What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time. When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it. If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not). But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit



Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built. Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


 

Just thought I provide a quick update that I solved my problem without Jaws tech support, should have probably done so right away instead of spending 10 minutes on the phone argueing with this lady about how long Jaws has been around. In the end I simply decided to completely uninstall Jaws, I removed shared components since I don't have Openbook or anything like that installed, also removed all user settings after first exporting a backup copy. Then I reinstalled Jaws and before I imported my settings again I tried Sage 50 and another of my retail applications which wouldn't read and all was working as before. I then imported my settings and everything was still working fine. I have no idea what had gone wrong before, but it seems to be fixed.
When I tried to move the Jaws cursor down to the bottom of the screen before and it didn't seem to go there I used the Alt+NumPad Delete command to see where my Jaws cursor was located and it said vertically it was at "14" and it was stuck there. I made sure it was set to "unrestricted" but nothing I did made a difference. Oh well, in the end that only took about 15 or 20 minutes at the most so not too bad.
I just love it when sometimes these tech support people think everybody they talk to is a moron who has no clue and they try to convince you that this can't, in this case, possibly be a problem of Jaws, it must be because the application was updated and has changed or whatever. I told her I was running the 2014 version of Sage 50 because it works well and there have been no updates to it in almost 4 years, I have not changed anything on this PC except installing the Jaws 18.0.2740 update which she of course said couldn't possibly be the problem.

Regards,
Sieghard

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gudrun Brunot
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 8:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

Oh, Brian, thank you for these words! I once called Freedom Scientific Tech support and got one visually equipped person who could immediately help me because he could see what was going on. I later had a problem with the WordFinder program (a translation dictionary tool) for which JAWS wasn't working too efficiently. I called Freedom Scientific and got a tech support assistant who, from what I could tell, was not visually equipped. I explained that, perhaps, a sighted person would be more able to see what JAWS should be showing and wasn't, and provide helpful feedback as to what I could do to have it work better. The woman got very huffy, obviously deeply insulted. I told her there was a reason for my asking for a sighted assistant, implying no slur to blind tech support people, but to a situation where sight might be helpful, and there was no need to get huffy. Obviously, she was not impressed...



Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired. What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time. When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it. If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not). But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit



Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built. Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

I know at least one guy who created an early DOS screen reader, so he could maintain his chosen vocation as a programmer.

 

Ted

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 7:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

 

On Thu, May 18, 2017 at 04:27 pm, Randy Barnett wrote:

I do most anything I need too but you are right there is no doubt that sight helps and is critical in some situations.

Thank you very much for reflecting back what I had tried to communicate.  It makes me confident that I hit my target.

This is definitely not about encouraging dependence or questioning an individual's abilities.  It's really is a tool to situation feature matching exercise when time is of the essence. 

As an aside, it's been interesting to me over time as I've read folks who are blind and who are computer programmers.  Having been one I would never, ever have thought that this would be possible while retaining one's sanity at the same time.  I was wrong, and it's fascinating to see both the similarities and differences in how the whole task is approached depending on an individual's sensory palette.
--
Brian        Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit

 

        Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built.  Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.


Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Now you guys see where I was going last week. As I said then, there's one in every crowd.

Ted

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Friday, May 19, 2017 12:50 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

Just thought I provide a quick update that I solved my problem without Jaws tech support, should have probably done so right away instead of spending 10 minutes on the phone argueing with this lady about how long Jaws has been around. In the end I simply decided to completely uninstall Jaws, I removed shared components since I don't have Openbook or anything like that installed, also removed all user settings after first exporting a backup copy. Then I reinstalled Jaws and before I imported my settings again I tried Sage 50 and another of my retail applications which wouldn't read and all was working as before. I then imported my settings and everything was still working fine. I have no idea what had gone wrong before, but it seems to be fixed.
When I tried to move the Jaws cursor down to the bottom of the screen before and it didn't seem to go there I used the Alt+NumPad Delete command to see where my Jaws cursor was located and it said vertically it was at "14" and it was stuck there. I made sure it was set to "unrestricted" but nothing I did made a difference. Oh well, in the end that only took about 15 or 20 minutes at the most so not too bad.
I just love it when sometimes these tech support people think everybody they talk to is a moron who has no clue and they try to convince you that this can't, in this case, possibly be a problem of Jaws, it must be because the application was updated and has changed or whatever. I told her I was running the 2014 version of Sage 50 because it works well and there have been no updates to it in almost 4 years, I have not changed anything on this PC except installing the Jaws 18.0.2740 update which she of course said couldn't possibly be the problem.

Regards,
Sieghard

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gudrun Brunot
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 8:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

Oh, Brian, thank you for these words! I once called Freedom Scientific Tech support and got one visually equipped person who could immediately help me because he could see what was going on. I later had a problem with the WordFinder program (a translation dictionary tool) for which JAWS wasn't working too efficiently. I called Freedom Scientific and got a tech support assistant who, from what I could tell, was not visually equipped. I explained that, perhaps, a sighted person would be more able to see what JAWS should be showing and wasn't, and provide helpful feedback as to what I could do to have it work better. The woman got very huffy, obviously deeply insulted. I told her there was a reason for my asking for a sighted assistant, implying no slur to blind tech support people, but to a situation where sight might be helpful, and there was no need to get huffy. Obviously, she was not impressed...



Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Thursday, May 18, 2017 4:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: VFO Tech Support, was: The answer is not to tell us that buying a new version of JAWS is the proper solution.

It is the great lie to believe that sight may not be important or critical in solving certain problems quickly and efficiently.

I have been, and probably will be, castigated for stating that but it's true.

Stating the above says nothing, positive or negative, about the competence of someone who's blind or visually impaired. What it does say is that you sometimes face the choice of taking forever to get through something that someone who sees literally sees in real time. When dealing with a primarily visual medium it only makes sense to take that into account when you're in a bind that you need to get out of as promptly as possible.

There is no shame, and no weakness, implied in asking for the most effective assistance one can get in any given situation where one needs it. If one has the luxury of time, and wants to learn something for the sake of learning it, then go methodically plowing through it (and this applies regardless of whether you have vision or not). But if I'm in a work situation and I need something resolved that sight would most likely make faster, it is absolutely not the job of technical support to treat the request as though it were a personal aspersion and they should, in fact, know this themselves if they've been at the job for more than a brief period of time.
--
Brian Version 1703, Build 15063.296, Home 64-bit



Many are under the gross misapprehension that the Constitution is a cage and a laundry-list rather than a framework upon which great things have been and still will be built. Many things that are entirely Constitutional are not "in the Constitution," but are allowed under it.