Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?


 

Anyone who's been around here for more than the last few days and has been reading my posts already knows I'm a sighted tutor who teaches JAWS, among other assistive technology.  I'm just throwing that out there for our newest members.

As anyone who uses JAWS knows, it's a very expensive piece of software and since Freedom Scientific does not offer any discount or free license to people doing what I do (that I know of) there's no way I can justify the expense.

I know that I can pick up a copy of NVDA, the open-source screen reader, from nvaccess.org for free.  I already have fully functional (but without the high-end voice options) version of WindowEyes as well.

What I'm wondering is how similar either one of these might be to JAWS?  A friend of mine is a WindowEyes user who can and does occasionally use an older version of JAWS and she glides pretty effortlessly between them and has said that a number of the commands used are the same.

There are those times when it would be handy to do some hands-on work by myself in preparation for certain "relatively hairy" systems when I'm going to be teaching someone to use those with JAWS, but since I can't get a copy that remains active for just that purpose I was wondering if either of these other two screen readers might be "parallel enough" to be of some use in getting a feel for how JAWS will work with a given website, etc.

Brian


Maria Campbell
 

I use NVDA as a backup for when JAWS crashes.
For my purpose, it works fine, except for the inability to use place markers on web pages.
One advantage I have is the use of Eloquence with NVDA, because it uses the unlocked version that comes with Kurzweil. Otherwise, the NVDA voice is not too pleasant to my ears.

On 12/30/2015 11:34 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Anyone who's been around here for more than the last few days and has
been reading my posts already knows I'm a sighted tutor who teaches
JAWS, among other assistive technology. I'm just throwing that out
there for our newest members.

As anyone who uses JAWS knows, it's a very expensive piece of software
and since Freedom Scientific does not offer any discount or free license
to people doing what I do (that I know of) there's no way I can justify
the expense.

I know that I can pick up a copy of NVDA, the open-source screen reader,
from nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/> for free. I already have
fully functional (but without the high-end voice options) version of
WindowEyes as well.

What I'm wondering is how similar either one of these might be to JAWS?
A friend of mine is a WindowEyes user who can and does occasionally
use an older version of JAWS and she glides pretty effortlessly between
them and has said that a number of the commands used are the same.

There are those times when it would be handy to do some hands-on work by
myself in preparation for certain "relatively hairy" systems when I'm
going to be teaching someone to use those with JAWS, but since I can't
get a copy that remains active for just that purpose I was wondering if
either of these other two screen readers might be "parallel enough" to
be of some use in getting a feel for how JAWS will work with a given
website, etc.

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


Lee Anne Atkinson
 

Brian,

 

I have used WindowEyes on different occasions but primarily JAWS.  WindowEyes has a "application" one can install to make it act like JAWS.  This is very handy as many of the keyboard commands are similar.  However, one loses a lot of functionality.  If it is for personal, fun use or if cost is a major concern, WindowEyes is a great option.  I am a transcriptionist by trade and depend heavily on the features of JAWS to get through a lot of clutter on a page or for sound schemes, which is unavailble in WindowEyes. 

 

Similar?  Yes.  Workable? Yes.  To me it is like comparing a beach cruiser bicycle to a 21-speed racing bike.  Both will get you there, it is just a matter of what you want and how much effort you want to put into it. 

 

Lee Anne

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Anyone who's been around here for more than the last few days and has been reading my posts already knows I'm a sighted tutor who teaches JAWS, among other assistive technology.  I'm just throwing that out there for our newest members.

As anyone who uses JAWS knows, it's a very expensive piece of software and since Freedom Scientific does not offer any discount or free license to people doing what I do (that I know of) there's no way I can justify the expense.

I know that I can pick up a copy of NVDA, the open-source screen reader, from nvaccess.org for free.  I already have fully functional (but without the high-end voice options) version of WindowEyes as well.

What I'm wondering is how similar either one of these might be to JAWS?  A friend of mine is a WindowEyes user who can and does occasionally use an older version of JAWS and she glides pretty effortlessly between them and has said that a number of the commands used are the same.

There are those times when it would be handy to do some hands-on work by myself in preparation for certain "relatively hairy" systems when I'm going to be teaching someone to use those with JAWS, but since I can't get a copy that remains active for just that purpose I was wondering if either of these other two screen readers might be "parallel enough" to be of some use in getting a feel for how JAWS will work with a given website, etc.

Brian


judith bron
 

I know people who use Window Eyes.  The people I have in mind are professional and get everything done for work and leisure on their Window Eyes machines.  Quite a while ago I used Window Eyes and eventually transitioned to jaws.  Both systems did what I needed, just keep in mind I’m not a tecky with big demands.  JB

 

From: Lee Anne Atkinson [mailto:lee.atkinson@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 1:11 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Brian,

 

I have used WindowEyes on different occasions but primarily JAWS.  WindowEyes has a "application" one can install to make it act like JAWS.  This is very handy as many of the keyboard commands are similar.  However, one loses a lot of functionality.  If it is for personal, fun use or if cost is a major concern, WindowEyes is a great option.  I am a transcriptionist by trade and depend heavily on the features of JAWS to get through a lot of clutter on a page or for sound schemes, which is unavailble in WindowEyes. 

 

Similar?  Yes.  Workable? Yes.  To me it is like comparing a beach cruiser bicycle to a 21-speed racing bike.  Both will get you there, it is just a matter of what you want and how much effort you want to put into it. 

 

Lee Anne

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Anyone who's been around here for more than the last few days and has been reading my posts already knows I'm a sighted tutor who teaches JAWS, among other assistive technology.  I'm just throwing that out there for our newest members.

As anyone who uses JAWS knows, it's a very expensive piece of software and since Freedom Scientific does not offer any discount or free license to people doing what I do (that I know of) there's no way I can justify the expense.

I know that I can pick up a copy of NVDA, the open-source screen reader, from nvaccess.org for free.  I already have fully functional (but without the high-end voice options) version of WindowEyes as well.

What I'm wondering is how similar either one of these might be to JAWS?  A friend of mine is a WindowEyes user who can and does occasionally use an older version of JAWS and she glides pretty effortlessly between them and has said that a number of the commands used are the same.

There are those times when it would be handy to do some hands-on work by myself in preparation for certain "relatively hairy" systems when I'm going to be teaching someone to use those with JAWS, but since I can't get a copy that remains active for just that purpose I was wondering if either of these other two screen readers might be "parallel enough" to be of some use in getting a feel for how JAWS will work with a given website, etc.

Brian


 

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond.

The main thing I'm trying to do for myself is to get a bit better grip on "what's what" as far as web browsing goes.  I frequently use INS+F6, list headings, and INS+F7, list links, with my clients as well as the Navigation Quick Keys.  I have never had a good grasp (or I don't think I do, anyway) regarding Forms Mode, Table Navigation, or PlaceMarkers (though the concept for the last one is very clear to me).  When you can see it's not nearly so necessary to know the actual structures within HTML that JAWS and other screen readers rely upon to make your navigation of these pages as quick and painless as possible, and I sometimes think that I'm going "around Jake's barn" with regard to web browsers and JAWS because don't have a clear grasp of the above nor Frames or Elements.

The whole JAWS Cursor versus PC Cursor is utterly maddening to me because JAWS focus can switch without a corresponding visual move of the information displayed such that it can, for instance, be on a radio button that's not visible on the screen to me, which can make, no pun intended, getting on the same page as my client more than a bit of a challenge.  I also wish I had more practice with using the mouse functions without actually using the mouse (although I admit I encourage my clients to use the physical left and right click buttons on the mouse pad on a laptop because they can be easily distinguished via tactile means - I just create a permanent mask over the mousing area itself so that it does not interfere with pointer movement or accidental click activation).

If either NVDA or WindowEyes is substantially the same in its handling of these things at least I could get some sense of what might happen in a session as far as possible or probable trouble spots beforehand.   Heaven knows I've got enough experience to be able to think on my feet and consult the keystrokes document at relatively high speed, but sometimes a bit of actual practice would probably help me.

One of the really tricky things, but one I'm used to, is that there is virtually no sense in even thinking about something as structured as a lesson plan with the clients I work with.  Most of the time by the time I'm called in they have a long list of "things I need to be able to do, some tomorrow and many yesterday" that I just walk through with them based on their prioritization of same.  This is nothing like teaching a formal class and there are always the bugs one finds in JAWS (with some frequency) and/or technical support issues that unmask themselves as part of the whole process.

I really love this work and always want to find ways that I can improve my service delivery.

Brian, who still has to "shut JAWS up" when short bursts of really intensive work show up that I really need to do that are unrelated to the client's JAWS goals - I doubt I'll ever get entirely comfortable with the endless narration!


judith bron
 

Brian, I sure wish there was someone like you in my area.  When I need forms mode on a website or Facebook I hit the spacebar and most of the time it works.  Like any human, even though it is a robot, sometimes Jaws has a mind of its own.  As for a curriculum for your clients that will never work keep in mind that each client has individual computer needs and expectations from the program.  One client might be a book keeper, the next one an editor and the one after that an author.  Some might be computer geiks who program and do all the things I can’t even dream about.  Good luck, Judith

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 3:45 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond.

The main thing I'm trying to do for myself is to get a bit better grip on "what's what" as far as web browsing goes.  I frequently use INS+F6, list headings, and INS+F7, list links, with my clients as well as the Navigation Quick Keys.  I have never had a good grasp (or I don't think I do, anyway) regarding Forms Mode, Table Navigation, or PlaceMarkers (though the concept for the last one is very clear to me).  When you can see it's not nearly so necessary to know the actual structures within HTML that JAWS and other screen readers rely upon to make your navigation of these pages as quick and painless as possible, and I sometimes think that I'm going "around Jake's barn" with regard to web browsers and JAWS because don't have a clear grasp of the above nor Frames or Elements.

The whole JAWS Cursor versus PC Cursor is utterly maddening to me because JAWS focus can switch without a corresponding visual move of the information displayed such that it can, for instance, be on a radio button that's not visible on the screen to me, which can make, no pun intended, getting on the same page as my client more than a bit of a challenge.  I also wish I had more practice with using the mouse functions without actually using the mouse (although I admit I encourage my clients to use the physical left and right click buttons on the mouse pad on a laptop because they can be easily distinguished via tactile means - I just create a permanent mask over the mousing area itself so that it does not interfere with pointer movement or accidental click activation).

If either NVDA or WindowEyes is substantially the same in its handling of these things at least I could get some sense of what might happen in a session as far as possible or probable trouble spots beforehand.   Heaven knows I've got enough experience to be able to think on my feet and consult the keystrokes document at relatively high speed, but sometimes a bit of actual practice would probably help me.

One of the really tricky things, but one I'm used to, is that there is virtually no sense in even thinking about something as structured as a lesson plan with the clients I work with.  Most of the time by the time I'm called in they have a long list of "things I need to be able to do, some tomorrow and many yesterday" that I just walk through with them based on their prioritization of same.  This is nothing like teaching a formal class and there are always the bugs one finds in JAWS (with some frequency) and/or technical support issues that unmask themselves as part of the whole process.

I really love this work and always want to find ways that I can improve my service delivery.

Brian, who still has to "shut JAWS up" when short bursts of really intensive work show up that I really need to do that are unrelated to the client's JAWS goals - I doubt I'll ever get entirely comfortable with the endless narration!


Maria Campbell
 

Brian, you might mess around with the new smart navigation insert X combination of keys introduced with JAWS 17. I'm not convinced that it works that well, but it is supposed to make the web page more like what the sighted see. Sorry, I'm not much of a techie, either, but I truly believe that the navigation system of JAWS is beyond compare. It's the best way I can describe it without being able to go into more detail. However, this thought might simply be based on the fact that I've been using JAWS for quite a long time. It's hard for me to understand how people can switch between WindowEyes and JAWS, with the two systems so differently configured. I could be wrong but NVDA may be closer to JAWS in its application.

I use place markers extensively to jump over unwanted ads, links, frames, etc., once I know the layout of the web page.

One regret is, as you say, the seeming inability for my husband and me to be on the same page, so to speak, when I get into trouble, and he can't figure out where the heck I am.

The expert on NVDA on the list is Joseph Lee. Perhaps he may chime in with a few of his thoughts.

On 12/30/2015 2:44 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond.

The main thing I'm trying to do for myself is to get a bit better grip
on "what's what" as far as web browsing goes. I frequently use INS+F6,
list headings, and INS+F7, list links, with my clients as well as the
Navigation Quick Keys. I have never had a good grasp (or I don't think
I do, anyway) regarding Forms Mode, Table Navigation, or PlaceMarkers
(though the concept for the last one is very clear to me). When you can
see it's not nearly so necessary to know the actual structures within
HTML that JAWS and other screen readers rely upon to make your
navigation of these pages as quick and painless as possible, and I
sometimes think that I'm going "around Jake's barn" with regard to web
browsers and JAWS because don't have a clear grasp of the above nor
Frames or Elements.

The whole JAWS Cursor versus PC Cursor is utterly maddening to me
because JAWS focus can switch without a corresponding visual move of the
information displayed such that it can, for instance, be on a radio
button that's not visible on the screen to me, which can make, no pun
intended, getting on the same page as my client more than a bit of a
challenge. I also wish I had more practice with using the mouse
functions without actually using the mouse (although I admit I encourage
my clients to use the physical left and right click buttons on the mouse
pad on a laptop because they can be easily distinguished via tactile
means - I just create a permanent mask over the mousing area itself so
that it does not interfere with pointer movement or accidental click
activation).

If either NVDA or WindowEyes is substantially the same in its handling
of these things at least I could get some sense of what might happen in
a session as far as possible or probable trouble spots beforehand.
Heaven knows I've got enough experience to be able to think on my feet
and consult the keystrokes document at relatively high speed, but
sometimes a bit of actual practice would probably help me.

One of the really tricky things, but one I'm used to, is that there is
virtually no sense in even thinking about something as structured as a
lesson plan with the clients I work with. Most of the time by the time
I'm called in they have a long list of "things I need to be able to do,
some tomorrow and many yesterday" that I just walk through with them
based on their prioritization of same. This is nothing like teaching a
formal class and there are always the bugs one finds in JAWS (with some
frequency) and/or technical support issues that unmask themselves as
part of the whole process.

I really love this work and always want to find ways that I can improve
my service delivery.

Brian, who still has to "shut JAWS up" when short bursts of really
intensive work show up that I really need to do that are unrelated to
the client's JAWS goals - I doubt I'll ever get entirely comfortable
with the endless narration!

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


Londa Peterson
 

I'm not the most experienced with other screen readers, but I have done some testing. I don't think they're enough the same to help you. I think you'd be better off with a forty minute demo of JAWS. You could also get a 90 day license for JAWS. That might give you enough time to do what you need to.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 3:45 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond.

The main thing I'm trying to do for myself is to get a bit better grip on "what's what" as far as web browsing goes.  I frequently use INS+F6, list headings, and INS+F7, list links, with my clients as well as the Navigation Quick Keys.  I have never had a good grasp (or I don't think I do, anyway) regarding Forms Mode, Table Navigation, or PlaceMarkers (though the concept for the last one is very clear to me).  When you can see it's not nearly so necessary to know the actual structures within HTML that JAWS and other screen readers rely upon to make your navigation of these pages as quick and painless as possible, and I sometimes think that I'm going "around Jake's barn" with regard to web browsers and JAWS because don't have a clear grasp of the above nor Frames or Elements.

The whole JAWS Cursor versus PC Cursor is utterly maddening to me because JAWS focus can switch without a corresponding visual move of the information displayed such that it can, for instance, be on a radio button that's not visible on the screen to me, which can make, no pun intended, getting on the same page as my client more than a bit of a challenge.  I also wish I had more practice with using the mouse functions without actually using the mouse (although I admit I encourage my clients to use the physical left and right click buttons on the mouse pad on a laptop because they can be easily distinguished via tactile means - I just create a permanent mask over the mousing area itself so that it does not interfere with pointer movement or accidental click activation).

If either NVDA or WindowEyes is substantially the same in its handling of these things at least I could get some sense of what might happen in a session as far as possible or probable trouble spots beforehand.   Heaven knows I've got enough experience to be able to think on my feet and consult the keystrokes document at relatively high speed, but sometimes a bit of actual practice would probably help me.

One of the really tricky things, but one I'm used to, is that there is virtually no sense in even thinking about something as structured as a lesson plan with the clients I work with.  Most of the time by the time I'm called in they have a long list of "things I need to be able to do, some tomorrow and many yesterday" that I just walk through with them based on their prioritization of same.  This is nothing like teaching a formal class and there are always the bugs one finds in JAWS (with some frequency) and/or technical support issues that unmask themselves as part of the whole process.

I really love this work and always want to find ways that I can improve my service delivery.

Brian, who still has to "shut JAWS up" when short bursts of really intensive work show up that I really need to do that are unrelated to the client's JAWS goals - I doubt I'll ever get entirely comfortable with the endless narration!


 

Thanks for the continuing input, I appreciate it more than I can say.

Note to Maria:  I have not as yet even touched JAWS 17.  I've got two clients who are having some major problems with JAWS 15 and I'm slated to update both to JAWS 17 in the near future.  The one client is licensed to go up through the not-yet-in-existence JAWS 18, but JAWS 17 has been hateful about installing so I need to involve Freedom Scientific technical support on the next try.  I've typically not had this sort of crankiness with installation in the past.

Also, since this is the group that can answer this question best, do you all feel that it is a worthwhile exercise for me to teach my clients how to submit a trouble report via the Freedom Scientific website, or should I just encourage them to use e-mail and teach them "the essentials" about what must be included in a technical support request message?  Over time I have come to feel quite strongly that it is an essential skill to be able to interact with FS tech support completely independently since the end user is always going to encounter issues I never will when I'm training them and these aren't, in most cases, in the "optional to resolve" category.  What say you all?

Brian


Maria Campbell
 

I just send an email to tech support with any problems. Not submitting bug reports, I wonder if these are at all addressed personally, as the emails certainly are.
Strangely, I find JAWS 15 to be more stable than either 16 or 17.

On 12/30/2015 6:15 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Thanks for the continuing input, I appreciate it more than I can say.

Note to Maria: I have not as yet even touched JAWS 17. I've got two
clients who are having some major problems with JAWS 15 and I'm slated
to update both to JAWS 17 in the near future. The one client is
licensed to go up through the not-yet-in-existence JAWS 18, but JAWS 17
has been hateful about installing so I need to involve Freedom
Scientific technical support on the next try. I've typically not had
this sort of crankiness with installation in the past.

Also, since this is the group that can answer this question best, do you
all feel that it is a worthwhile exercise for me to teach my clients how
to submit a trouble report via the Freedom Scientific website, or should
I just encourage them to use e-mail and teach them "the essentials"
about what must be included in a technical support request message?
Over time I have come to feel quite strongly that it is an essential
skill to be able to interact with FS tech support completely
independently since the end user is always going to encounter issues I
never will when I'm training them and these aren't, in most cases, in
the "optional to resolve" category. What say you all?

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


David Moore
 

Hi Brian,
I think it is a good idea that they know how to interact with FS and to fill out complaint reports. JAWS is freeky in the fact that it works differently for everyone based on computer settings and so forth. It is good that if a person is having trouble to be able to work with FS. JAWS 17 installed great for me on my computer that I upgraded to win10 and my other computer that is new and already had win10 installed on it. Have a great one.
 
 

Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:15 PM
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?
 

Thanks for the continuing input, I appreciate it more than I can say.

Note to Maria:  I have not as yet even touched JAWS 17.  I've got two clients who are having some major problems with JAWS 15 and I'm slated to update both to JAWS 17 in the near future.  The one client is licensed to go up through the not-yet-in-existence JAWS 18, but JAWS 17 has been hateful about installing so I need to involve Freedom Scientific technical support on the next try.  I've typically not had this sort of crankiness with installation in the past.

Also, since this is the group that can answer this question best, do you all feel that it is a worthwhile exercise for me to teach my clients how to submit a trouble report via the Freedom Scientific website, or should I just encourage them to use e-mail and teach them "the essentials" about what must be included in a technical support request message?  Over time I have come to feel quite strongly that it is an essential skill to be able to interact with FS tech support completely independently since the end user is always going to encounter issues I never will when I'm training them and these aren't, in most cases, in the "optional to resolve" category.  What say you all?

Brian


David Moore
 

Hi Brian,
I use JAWS and NVDA. NVDA can do things that JAWS cannot do and the opposite is also true. It is greatly benefitting me to be using two screen readers. I use JAWS and NVDA equally. NVDA can access toolbars and other elements on the screen that really helps. Have a great one.
 
 

Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 1:11 PM
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?
 

Brian,

 

I have used WindowEyes on different occasions but primarily JAWS.  WindowEyes has a "application" one can install to make it act like JAWS.  This is very handy as many of the keyboard commands are similar.  However, one loses a lot of functionality.  If it is for personal, fun use or if cost is a major concern, WindowEyes is a great option.  I am a transcriptionist by trade and depend heavily on the features of JAWS to get through a lot of clutter on a page or for sound schemes, which is unavailble in WindowEyes. 

 

Similar?  Yes.  Workable? Yes.  To me it is like comparing a beach cruiser bicycle to a 21-speed racing bike.  Both will get you there, it is just a matter of what you want and how much effort you want to put into it. 

 

Lee Anne

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 12:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Anyone who's been around here for more than the last few days and has been reading my posts already knows I'm a sighted tutor who teaches JAWS, among other assistive technology.  I'm just throwing that out there for our newest members.

As anyone who uses JAWS knows, it's a very expensive piece of software and since Freedom Scientific does not offer any discount or free license to people doing what I do (that I know of) there's no way I can justify the expense.

I know that I can pick up a copy of NVDA, the open-source screen reader, from nvaccess.org for free.  I already have fully functional (but without the high-end voice options) version of WindowEyes as well.

What I'm wondering is how similar either one of these might be to JAWS?  A friend of mine is a WindowEyes user who can and does occasionally use an older version of JAWS and she glides pretty effortlessly between them and has said that a number of the commands used are the same.

There are those times when it would be handy to do some hands-on work by myself in preparation for certain "relatively hairy" systems when I'm going to be teaching someone to use those with JAWS, but since I can't get a copy that remains active for just that purpose I was wondering if either of these other two screen readers might be "parallel enough" to be of some use in getting a feel for how JAWS will work with a given website, etc.

Brian


Kevin Wollenweber <dancingweed@...>
 

You know, in some ways I, too, find JAWS 15 more stable than JAWS 16 or 17. That is why I havcen't as yet upgraded to WINDOWS 10. I don't dare get rid of JAWS 15.

I don't know what I'll do should a good portion of the internet change to the extreme where older versions of WINDOWS are no longer compatible.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Campbell [mailto:lucky1@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:26 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

I just send an email to tech support with any problems. Not submitting bug reports, I wonder if these are at all addressed personally, as the emails certainly are.
Strangely, I find JAWS 15 to be more stable than either 16 or 17.


On 12/30/2015 6:15 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Thanks for the continuing input, I appreciate it more than I can say.

Note to Maria: I have not as yet even touched JAWS 17. I've got two
clients who are having some major problems with JAWS 15 and I'm slated
to update both to JAWS 17 in the near future. The one client is
licensed to go up through the not-yet-in-existence JAWS 18, but JAWS
17 has been hateful about installing so I need to involve Freedom
Scientific technical support on the next try. I've typically not had
this sort of crankiness with installation in the past.

Also, since this is the group that can answer this question best, do
you all feel that it is a worthwhile exercise for me to teach my
clients how to submit a trouble report via the Freedom Scientific
website, or should I just encourage them to use e-mail and teach them "the essentials"
about what must be included in a technical support request message?
Over time I have come to feel quite strongly that it is an essential
skill to be able to interact with FS tech support completely
independently since the end user is always going to encounter issues I
never will when I'm training them and these aren't, in most cases, in
the "optional to resolve" category. What say you all?

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


amit aggarwal <aggarwal.amit444@...>
 

hi,
yes, I am a eexpert user of nvda window eyes and jaws. after using
these screen readers I can say that there is really no difference in
commands.
the difference is how they work with windows and other applications.
jaws is the most popular and widely used screen reader, while window
eyes and nvda remains on second and third places.
I use nvda when I'm going on youtube, because af far as I know jaws
doesn't tell me the video duration. window eyes, well, I may use it
when I find any application that is not accessible with jaws (I know a
few).
everyone has their own liking, but I prefer JAWS as my primary screen reader.
Best regards,
Amit

On 12/31/15, Kevin Wollenweber <dancingweed@...> wrote:
You know, in some ways I, too, find JAWS 15 more stable than JAWS 16 or 17.
That is why I havcen't as yet upgraded to WINDOWS 10. I don't dare get rid
of JAWS 15.

I don't know what I'll do should a good portion of the internet change to
the extreme where older versions of WINDOWS are no longer compatible.

Kevin

-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Campbell [mailto:lucky1@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 7:26 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or
people who've used both here?

I just send an email to tech support with any problems. Not submitting bug
reports, I wonder if these are at all addressed personally, as the emails
certainly are.
Strangely, I find JAWS 15 to be more stable than either 16 or 17.


On 12/30/2015 6:15 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Thanks for the continuing input, I appreciate it more than I can say.

Note to Maria: I have not as yet even touched JAWS 17. I've got two
clients who are having some major problems with JAWS 15 and I'm slated
to update both to JAWS 17 in the near future. The one client is
licensed to go up through the not-yet-in-existence JAWS 18, but JAWS
17 has been hateful about installing so I need to involve Freedom
Scientific technical support on the next try. I've typically not had
this sort of crankiness with installation in the past.

Also, since this is the group that can answer this question best, do
you all feel that it is a worthwhile exercise for me to teach my
clients how to submit a trouble report via the Freedom Scientific
website, or should I just encourage them to use e-mail and teach them "the
essentials"
about what must be included in a technical support request message?
Over time I have come to feel quite strongly that it is an essential
skill to be able to interact with FS tech support completely
independently since the end user is always going to encounter issues I
never will when I'm training them and these aren't, in most cases, in
the "optional to resolve" category. What say you all?

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.







 
Edited

Ongoing thanks to all who are so generously contributing their personal perspectives to this thread!  The response is more than I ever could have hoped for when I made the initial post.

A quick observation from me, since I've worked with both JAWS 15 and 16 recently enough to make an assessment:  Both have been pretty stable and behaved substantially the same for "the old functions" they share.  I have not yet dealt with JAWS 17, so have to withhold any opinion until I do, and that's coming soon.

I just posted at some length regarding Windows 10 on the "Just Updated to JAWS 17 . . . Windows 10" thread started earlier today.


Kevin Hourigan <kevinthourigan@...>
 

Hello Brien,

I use Jaws because that is what I started with and know, but I am hearing that some VIPs prefer NVDA, particularly for web navigation, and their numbers are growing.

As to your experiences with mouse functions ; I personally have enjoyed very little success with any keystroke replacements for mouse functions. You may wish to consider that this is an entirely different world. While we need to interact with sighted people, we are doing it in a completely different atmosphere.

Happy New year!

Kevin.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: December-30-15 12:45 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Thanks to all who have taken the time to respond.

The main thing I'm trying to do for myself is to get a bit better grip on "what's what" as far as web browsing goes.  I frequently use INS+F6, list headings, and INS+F7, list links, with my clients as well as the Navigation Quick Keys.  I have never had a good grasp (or I don't think I do, anyway) regarding Forms Mode, Table Navigation, or PlaceMarkers (though the concept for the last one is very clear to me).  When you can see it's not nearly so necessary to know the actual structures within HTML that JAWS and other screen readers rely upon to make your navigation of these pages as quick and painless as possible, and I sometimes think that I'm going "around Jake's barn" with regard to web browsers and JAWS because don't have a clear grasp of the above nor Frames or Elements.

The whole JAWS Cursor versus PC Cursor is utterly maddening to me because JAWS focus can switch without a corresponding visual move of the information displayed such that it can, for instance, be on a radio button that's not visible on the screen to me, which can make, no pun intended, getting on the same page as my client more than a bit of a challenge.  I also wish I had more practice with using the mouse functions without actually using the mouse (although I admit I encourage my clients to use the physical left and right click buttons on the mouse pad on a laptop because they can be easily distinguished via tactile means - I just create a permanent mask over the mousing area itself so that it does not interfere with pointer movement or accidental click activation).

If either NVDA or WindowEyes is substantially the same in its handling of these things at least I could get some sense of what might happen in a session as far as possible or probable trouble spots beforehand.   Heaven knows I've got enough experience to be able to think on my feet and consult the keystrokes document at relatively high speed, but sometimes a bit of actual practice would probably help me.

One of the really tricky things, but one I'm used to, is that there is virtually no sense in even thinking about something as structured as a lesson plan with the clients I work with.  Most of the time by the time I'm called in they have a long list of "things I need to be able to do, some tomorrow and many yesterday" that I just walk through with them based on their prioritization of same.  This is nothing like teaching a formal class and there are always the bugs one finds in JAWS (with some frequency) and/or technical support issues that unmask themselves as part of the whole process.

I really love this work and always want to find ways that I can improve my service delivery.

Brian, who still has to "shut JAWS up" when short bursts of really intensive work show up that I really need to do that are unrelated to the client's JAWS goals - I doubt I'll ever get entirely comfortable with the endless narration!


 

Kevin,

        Thanks for your input.   I just want to hasten to add that my motivation for "forcing" the occasional use of the mouse buttons is not, in any way, because I think that any given method is the "right" one, but sometimes there really is a "best" one.

        A number of my clients have expressed utter amazement when I teach them about the presence of the context menu that pops up anywhere (pretty much) when you right click on anything that can be operated on in some way and that this menu restricts you to the actual things you can do to that actual object.  It saves so much menu arrow-through time (and I'm amazed how many of my clients cling to using arrow-through even after they know the "you can type the first letter of the function you're searching for to speed your way down the menu" technique).  It also avoids, almost entirely, the presence of stippled-out options that cannot be selected at the moment because they do not fit the actual context of the moment, but must be in a general-purpose full menu anyway.

        All of the above having been said, if anyone detects what they feel is even the slightest whiff of condescension or trying to "force blind people to do something the sighted way" in my posts or descriptions of how I tutor, please let me know about this directly, but kindly.   That is absolutely never my intention, but unintentional paternalism, rudeness, or slights are as bad or worse than intentional ones.   Just realize that any of these are occurring out of ignorance, not malice.

Brian


Maria Campbell
 

Brian, I'm so glad to see you teach your clients to use the menus, rather than just teaching the short cut keys to get around. An unfortunate friend of mine was only taught short cut keys. In my humble opinion that limits the possibilities/options one encounters when exploring the menus, rather than just being exposed to the very specific actions of shortcut keys. Continual use of an application eventually and naturally does result in the memorization of shortcut keys anyway.
I pretty much have taught myself how to use the PC, listening to, and reading anything I can get my hands on, as long as it isn't too technical for my understanding.

On 12/31/2015 12:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Kevin,

Thanks for your input. I just want to hasten to add that my
motivation for "forcing" the occasional use of the mouse buttons is not,
in any way, because I think that any given method is the "right" one,
but sometimes there really is a "best" one.

A number of my clients have expressed utter amazement when I
teach them about the presence of the context menu that pops up anywhere
(pretty much) when you right click on anything that can be operated on
in some way and that this menu restricts you to the actual things you
can do to that actual object. It saves so much menu arrow-through time
(and I'm amazed how many of my clients cling to using arrow-through even
after they know the "you can type the first letter of the function
you're searching for to speed your way down the menu" technique). It
also avoids, almost entirely, the presence of stippled-out options that
cannot be selected at the moment because they do not fit the actual
context of the moment, but must be in a general-purpose full menu anyway.

All of the above having been said, if anyone detects what they
feel is even the slightest whiff of condescension or trying to "force
blind people to do something the sighted way" in my posts or
descriptions of how I tutor, please let me know about this directly, but
kindly. That is absolutely never my intention, but unintentional
paternalism, rudeness, or slights are as bad or worse than intentional
ones. Just realize that any of these are occurring out of ignorance,
not malice.

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


Adrian Spratt
 

Brian,

 

I agree, it’s essential that JAWS users know about the right-mouse click option. Usually, the choices that come up in that menu are identical to those you obtain by pressing the applications key, but not always. Once in a while, the right-mouse click menu provides the only solution to an accessibility problem.

 

Separately, I have done some informal JAWS training, and I partially disagree with the idea that a trainer should focus only on those issues a client wants resolved. Even if a client lists a set of tasks they would like to learn, it’s still important to establish a degree of JAWS familiarity. Once established, you can build from that foundation so that the client learns not only the keystrokes for a specific task, but also how to solve similar problems as they arise going forward. It’s the old saying that goes something like you can give someone a fish or you can teach them how to fish.

 

I haven’t followed these threads in any detail, but I notice your seeming perplexity about forms mode. I take it you understand that this is a JAWS device to solve the problem that JAWS users can’t just land on an edit field and type. Forms mode enables the user to make it possible to type when you land on an edit field.

 

Finally, while it’s no doubt useful to be able to see a screen to see why certain JAWS problems might be occurring, I would think it’s essential for a trainer to learn to listen to JAWS as it performs.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 1:12 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Kevin,

        Thanks for your input.   I just want to hasten to add that my motivation for "forcing" the occasional use of the mouse buttons is not, in any way, because I think that any given method is the "right" one, but sometimes there really is a "best" one.

        A number of my clients have expressed utter amazement when I teach them about the presence of the context menu that pops up anywhere (pretty much) when you right click on anything that can be operated on in some way and that this menu restricts you to the actual things you can do to that actual object.  It saves so much menu arrow-through time (and I'm amazed how many of my clients cling to using arrow-through even after they know the "you can type the first letter of the function you're searching for to speed your way down the menu" technique).  It also avoids, almost entirely, the presence of stippled-out options that cannot be selected at the moment because they do not fit the actual context of the moment, but must be in a general-purpose full menu anyway.

        All of the above having been said, if anyone detects what they feel is even the slightest whiff of condescension or trying to "force blind people to do something the sighted way" in my posts or descriptions of how I tutor, please let me know about this directly, but kindly.   That is absolutely never my intention, but unintentional paternalism, rudeness, or slights are as bad or worse than intentional ones.   Just realize that any of these are occurring out of ignorance, not malice.

Brian


 

Adrian,

       Thanks for the feedback.

        I hasten to add that the very nature, and length (in virtually all cases), of my tutoring involves by its very nature getting a user familiar with a very wide range of JAWS functions and comfort using them.  What I was trying to get at earlier is that the nature of my clients needs is such that I would feel like a fool and dictator were I to walk in and take a "lesson plan" approach where I declare something along the lines of, "tonight we're going to work on web browsing," when their latest crisis du jour was with using JAWS with MS-Word.   I follow the direction that the client's immediate needs take us for that session, but I do not limit myself to them if/when those needs have been addressed and the spontaneous teachable (and, I hasten to add, learnable for me) moments occur in each and every session such that a lot of territory gets covered.   What's funny for me is that when I'm working with multiple clients during the same time frame it can become confusing not only in regard to what I've taught who, which we can resolve quickly, but also in regard to what I can actually pull up immediately in my mind regarding JAWS.  It is, in many ways, a PITA that I am not an actual JAWS user because I can never establish the kind of fluency that a real user does.   That being the case I also tell my clients that while I am always willing to re-cover any territory, I am relying on them to keep building on what we've already done and that I may have to ask them on many occasions, "What's the command to do action X again?," because it's dropped out of my commands in current circulation in my mind cycle.   I'm constantly having to relearn things because all skills are "use it or lose it" and I just don't, and never will, need to use JAWS to the extent that it becomes "like breathing" for me.

I also listen to JAWS with great regularity, and teach my clients to do the same, because that's very often the only way I and they can know "where JAWS is" at a given moment in time.  I, however, have the option of ignoring JAWS during lessons where the individual is in the midst of performing the well-known things they do, which are always somewhere as a part of any lesson, and they don't.  I also failed to make clear that when JAWS drives me crazy is when I'm trying to do something along the lines of technical support where I'm installing software, removing software, adding peripherals, etc., that the client will likely never do or want to do (if they express the interest then it is a teachable moment, and then the paradigm shifts).  When I've got something that's tangential to the lesson, but essential nonetheless to their life in general, like installing a new printer, I either exit JAWS entirely or use INS+Spacebar, followed by S to hush him or her (I tend to refer to JAWS in the moment as him or her based on the voice the client uses) up.

As to forms mode, I get that in the abstract but since JAWS drops into and out of forms mode automatically (at least by default), I had not realized that was happening.  Mode, as a term, for me means that one must always be manually responsible for toggling the state to get in to or out of that mode.  Private correspondence has allowed me to understand that my usual definition of how a mode works is how JAWS once worked, but that now the default is automatic, and that some prefer to turn that automatic feature off and go back to mode control being under their control.

Brian