CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?


Peter Tesar
 

Hello,

I’m confused. Before, when I opened a recently scanned PDF document, I heard:

    “Alert, empty document”.

I would then use the JAWS OCR to convert the PDF document to text.

 

Recently I did a clean install of Windows 10, and I needed to download Adobe Reader. I chose XI, not knowing that there was a DC version. The latter is probably what I used to use.

 

Now when I open the PDF image document, there is no announcement:

  “Alert, empty document”.

 

The image has been converted to text. Using the JAWS virtual cursor, I can read what can only have been converted with OCR.

 

Did Adobe Reader XI do the OCR conversion automatically?

What is the difference between adobe XI and DC?

Is there a difference between Adobe Reader and Acrobat Reader?

Maybe there is more than one Adobe Reader, and I don’t know which is which.


Any clarification will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Peter T.


Brad Martin
 

I'm confused also, as Adobe Reader XI alone won't do this. Perhaps newer versions of JAWS or Windows 10 did it for you. Adobe Reader XI is just an older version of Adobe Acrobat Reader DC. The latter integrates with Adobe's document cloud, but if you're not using the cloud functions, the two are pretty much similar. Think of DC as more like Adobe Reader XII (12) if they hadn't changed the name, with the newer version integrating features from Adobe's document cloud.

So perhaps JAWS versions newer than 15 are helping you convert those scans. With JAWS 15 and Windows 7, neither DC or XI will do this for me automatically.

Brad

On 12/27/2015 4:15 PM, Peter Tesar wrote:

Hello,

I’m confused. Before, when I opened a recently scanned PDF document, I heard:

    “Alert, empty document”.

I would then use the JAWS OCR to convert the PDF document to text.

 

Recently I did a clean install of Windows 10, and I needed to download Adobe Reader. I chose XI, not knowing that there was a DC version. The latter is probably what I used to use.

 

Now when I open the PDF image document, there is no announcement:

  “Alert, empty document”.

 

The image has been converted to text. Using the JAWS virtual cursor, I can read what can only have been converted with OCR.

 

Did Adobe Reader XI do the OCR conversion automatically?

What is the difference between adobe XI and DC?

Is there a difference between Adobe Reader and Acrobat Reader?

Maybe there is more than one Adobe Reader, and I don’t know which is which.


Any clarification will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Peter T.



 

Peter,

          I can confirm what Brad Martin has said in all regards.  I have several clients using JAWS 15 with Adobe Reader XI and it does not do any OCR conversion automatically.  In fact, I recently posted a thread about an alternative to Adobe Reader, Tracker Software's PDF-XChange Viewer, that does have built-in OCR that I have clients use when they want their OCR to be stored permanently with the PDF in question.

          I was under the impression that JAWS OCR did not store the text layer that it creates for a given PDF for future use and that you have to redo the JAWS OCR any time you open that file again.  Am I mistaken?

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Hi Brian: No, you are not mistaken: JAWS does not store OCR-generated text with Adobe XI after you close the file, the recognition has to be done again the next time you open the file. Imagine that when there's a job you've got to estimate to see if you can do the translation, and it's 250 pages... I didn't think OCR-generated text layers were stored in Adobe DC either. Am I wrong?

I had an experience with Exchange Viewer recently: I'm probably neglecting to do something important, so I'm thankful for any pointer. I was trying to open a w9 form that had items to fill in. I had a reader present, because I didn't know the keystroke to locate the OCR button. After the OCR had done its thing, there wasn't any text that I could read, neither before nor after OCR was completed. In Adobe DC, I could read the text fields, but not fill in the info. I filled out the form by turning off JAWS and tabbing to the fields with my reader telling me where I'd landed. I could read with Adobe DC after the form was filled in, but not with Exchange Viewer. What am I missing?


Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 2:29 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

Peter,

I can confirm what Brad Martin has said in all regards. I have several clients using JAWS 15 with Adobe Reader XI and it does not do any OCR conversion automatically. In fact, I recently posted a thread about an alternative to Adobe Reader, Tracker Software's PDF-XChange Viewer, that does have built-in OCR that I have clients use when they want their OCR to be stored permanently with the PDF in question.

I was under the impression that JAWS OCR did not store the text layer that it creates for a given PDF for future use and that you have to redo the JAWS OCR any time you open that file again. Am I mistaken?

Brian


Peter Tesar
 

Hello,

I have two computers, with Adobe Reader DC on one and XI on the other. The first computer has Windows 10 Home, upgraded from Windows 7 and the second has Windows 10 Pro with a fresh install.
I tried a test on the two using the same 4 PDF image files. These files were not scanned by my scanner.

First test using Adobe Reader XI
after getting the "alert, empty document", I instructed JAWS to start the OCR, with the 'd' document option. Nothing happened.  I repeated this test. a few times.

I can get OCR conversion to work using the "w" window option. This came up with the JAWS cursor.

If I open my scanned PDF file, the OCR is performed automatically even when the scanner is disconnected.


Second test using Adobe Reader DC
On my DC computer, each of these PDF image files gave me the "alert, empty document" message. JAWS will convert the entire document to text.


Conclusion
XI does not seem to allow JAWS 17 to do an OCR conversion on an entire PDF image document. This is using Windows 10 Pro and JAWS 17.

Why the XI does the OCR conversion automatically on my scanned image, I will have to investigate further. Maybe the scanner has its own OCR.

The DC does allow JAWS to do the OCR on the entire document.

Maybe I will have to uninstall the XI and install the DC version of Adobe Reader.

Peter T.

On 2015-12-27 5:22 PM, Brad Martin wrote:
I'm confused also, as Adobe Reader XI alone won't do this. Perhaps newer versions of JAWS or Windows 10 did it for you. Adobe Reader XI is just an older version of Adobe Acrobat Reader DC. The latter integrates with Adobe's document cloud, but if you're not using the cloud functions, the two are pretty much similar. Think of DC as more like Adobe Reader XII (12) if they hadn't changed the name, with the newer version integrating features from Adobe's document cloud.

So perhaps JAWS versions newer than 15 are helping you convert those scans. With JAWS 15 and Windows 7, neither DC or XI will do this for me automatically.

Brad

On 12/27/2015 4:15 PM, Peter Tesar wrote:

Hello,

I’m confused. Before, when I opened a recently scanned PDF document, I heard:

    “Alert, empty document”.

I would then use the JAWS OCR to convert the PDF document to text.

 

Recently I did a clean install of Windows 10, and I needed to download Adobe Reader. I chose XI, not knowing that there was a DC version. The latter is probably what I used to use.

 

Now when I open the PDF image document, there is no announcement:

  “Alert, empty document”.

 

The image has been converted to text. Using the JAWS virtual cursor, I can read what can only have been converted with OCR.

 

Did Adobe Reader XI do the OCR conversion automatically?

What is the difference between adobe XI and DC?

Is there a difference between Adobe Reader and Acrobat Reader?

Maybe there is more than one Adobe Reader, and I don’t know which is which.


Any clarification will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Peter T.




Brad Martin
 

You don't have to uninstall XI to install DC. It's like upgrading any other software from older to newer versions. The upgrade is fairly seemless. I'm surprised JAWS hasn't been screaming at you to do the upgrade; it yells at me about five minutes after I turn my computer on.

One caution: With Adobe Reader XI, if you open a large document, JAWS will tell you that the document is being processed. With DC, if the document is large, you just hear "blank" when you up or down arrow. It doesn't tell you the document is doing anything, so you might be tempted to give up with DC. Wait it out though, or try pressing Control A (select all) as this sometimes helps. I just find that JAWS does not announce that the document is processing with DC the way it did with XI.

Brad




On 12/27/2015 9:18 PM, Peter Tesar wrote:
Hello,

I have two computers, with Adobe Reader DC on one and XI on the other. The first computer has Windows 10 Home, upgraded from Windows 7 and the second has Windows 10 Pro with a fresh install.
I tried a test on the two using the same 4 PDF image files. These files were not scanned by my scanner.

First test using Adobe Reader XI
after getting the "alert, empty document", I instructed JAWS to start the OCR, with the 'd' document option. Nothing happened.  I repeated this test. a few times.

I can get OCR conversion to work using the "w" window option. This came up with the JAWS cursor.

If I open my scanned PDF file, the OCR is performed automatically even when the scanner is disconnected.


Second test using Adobe Reader DC
On my DC computer, each of these PDF image files gave me the "alert, empty document" message. JAWS will convert the entire document to text.


Conclusion
XI does not seem to allow JAWS 17 to do an OCR conversion on an entire PDF image document. This is using Windows 10 Pro and JAWS 17.

Why the XI does the OCR conversion automatically on my scanned image, I will have to investigate further. Maybe the scanner has its own OCR.

The DC does allow JAWS to do the OCR on the entire document.

Maybe I will have to uninstall the XI and install the DC version of Adobe Reader.

Peter T.

On 2015-12-27 5:22 PM, Brad Martin wrote:
I'm confused also, as Adobe Reader XI alone won't do this. Perhaps newer versions of JAWS or Windows 10 did it for you. Adobe Reader XI is just an older version of Adobe Acrobat Reader DC. The latter integrates with Adobe's document cloud, but if you're not using the cloud functions, the two are pretty much similar. Think of DC as more like Adobe Reader XII (12) if they hadn't changed the name, with the newer version integrating features from Adobe's document cloud.

So perhaps JAWS versions newer than 15 are helping you convert those scans. With JAWS 15 and Windows 7, neither DC or XI will do this for me automatically.

Brad

On 12/27/2015 4:15 PM, Peter Tesar wrote:

Hello,

I’m confused. Before, when I opened a recently scanned PDF document, I heard:

    “Alert, empty document”.

I would then use the JAWS OCR to convert the PDF document to text.

 

Recently I did a clean install of Windows 10, and I needed to download Adobe Reader. I chose XI, not knowing that there was a DC version. The latter is probably what I used to use.

 

Now when I open the PDF image document, there is no announcement:

  “Alert, empty document”.

 

The image has been converted to text. Using the JAWS virtual cursor, I can read what can only have been converted with OCR.

 

Did Adobe Reader XI do the OCR conversion automatically?

What is the difference between adobe XI and DC?

Is there a difference between Adobe Reader and Acrobat Reader?

Maybe there is more than one Adobe Reader, and I don’t know which is which.


Any clarification will be appreciated. Thanks.

 

Peter T.





 

I'll jump in here hoping that what I add will make some sense since the participants so far clearly have a good grasp of the last two releases of Adobe Reader and the OCR capabilities of JAWS.

Since many of the PDF files that my clients use are of fairly substantial page count, and they need to be referenced again and again, having to do OCR processing more than once can really slow their lives down.  I do not know of any version of Adobe Reader (the free versions) that has any built in OCR capability.  This is why I have introduced them to PDF-XChange Viewer (this link is the direct download link for the ZIP file used to install that software).  While it does not consistently "play well" with JAWS in all respects, it is simple to use the built in OCR scanning function to take a PDF that was originally scanned as an image file, create a text layer from the images, and save it back to the original PDF file as a unit.  Then you can open it as many times as you like in the future without needing to go through any OCR process again.  Since I know that JAWS is written to "play well" with specific programs I encourage them to use Adobe Reader to actually do their reading of the PDF files that they do OCR processing on and save with PDF-XChange Viewer.

What follows are the step-by-step instructions that I give to my clients who need to have the capability to do permanent OCR on PDFs they'll be referring to repeatedly with PDF-XChange Viewer:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PDF-XChange Viewer

Used when you receive a PDF that was originally scanned without Optical Character Recognition.  For reading stick to Adobe Reader.

1.     Open PDF-XChange Viewer from your start menu or desktop, wherever you chose to create the shortcut(s).

2.     ALT+F, O  Open a file, you’ll need to know where it is and navigate there in the Open Dialog, which is very much like Windows Explorer.

3.     CTRL+SHIFT+C  Perform optical character recognition on the file.  This will be quick for small files, 20 pages or less, but will take some time for very large files, hundreds of pages.  Listen for the process to complete.

4.     ALT+F, S  Save the file over itself with the OCR text now included.  If you wish to save the file under a different name and keep the original use ALT+F, A Save As to do this instead.


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Thank you, blessed Brian. I shall try the W9 file using your very clear instructions.

Gudrun


Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 8:57 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

I'll jump in here hoping that what I add will make some sense since the participants so far clearly have a good grasp of the last two releases of Adobe Reader and the OCR capabilities of JAWS.

Since many of the PDF files that my clients use are of fairly substantial page count, and they need to be referenced again and again, having to do OCR processing more than once can really slow their lives down. I do not know of any version of Adobe Reader (the free versions) that has any built in OCR capability. This is why I have introduced them to PDF-XChange Viewer <http://www.tracker-software.com/PDFXVwer.zip> (this link is the direct download link for the ZIP file used to install that software). While it does not consistently "play well" with JAWS in all respects, it is simple to use the built in OCR scanning function to take a PDF that was originally scanned as an image file, create a text layer from the images, and save it back to the original PDF file as a unit. Then you can open it as many times as you like in the future without needing to go through any OCR process again. Since I know that JAWS is written to "play well" with specific programs I encourage them to use Adobe Reader to actually do their reading of the PDF files that they do OCR processing on and save with PDF-XChange Viewer.

What follows are the step-by-step instructions that I give to my clients who need to have the capability to do permanent OCR on PDFs they'll be referring to repeatedly with PDF-XChange Viewer:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PDF-XChange Viewer

Used when you receive a PDF that was originally scanned without Optical Character Recognition. For reading stick to Adobe Reader.

1. Open PDF-XChange Viewer from your start menu or desktop, wherever you chose to create the shortcut(s).

2. ALT+F, O Open a file, you’ll need to know where it is and navigate there in the Open Dialog, which is very much like Windows Explorer.

3. CTRL+SHIFT+C Perform optical character recognition on the file. This will be quick for small files, 20 pages or less, but will take some time for very large files, hundreds of pages. Listen for the process to complete.

4. ALT+F, S Save the file over itself with the OCR text now included. If you wish to save the file under a different name and keep the original use ALT+F, A Save As to do this instead.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Hello again: I tried opening the W9 file, and I hit the keystroke to OCr it, and I heard the process start. After a few seconds, I heard the name of the file. I hit alt-f and s to save it with text layers. Still, nothing appeared on the braille display or could be heard with JAWS as I tried moving inside the file. So, after the OCR conversion, what should one do to fill out the form? Should I reopen the file?


Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 8:57 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

I'll jump in here hoping that what I add will make some sense since the participants so far clearly have a good grasp of the last two releases of Adobe Reader and the OCR capabilities of JAWS.

Since many of the PDF files that my clients use are of fairly substantial page count, and they need to be referenced again and again, having to do OCR processing more than once can really slow their lives down. I do not know of any version of Adobe Reader (the free versions) that has any built in OCR capability. This is why I have introduced them to PDF-XChange Viewer <http://www.tracker-software.com/PDFXVwer.zip> (this link is the direct download link for the ZIP file used to install that software). While it does not consistently "play well" with JAWS in all respects, it is simple to use the built in OCR scanning function to take a PDF that was originally scanned as an image file, create a text layer from the images, and save it back to the original PDF file as a unit. Then you can open it as many times as you like in the future without needing to go through any OCR process again. Since I know that JAWS is written to "play well" with specific programs I encourage them to use Adobe Reader to actually do their reading of the PDF files that they do OCR processing on and save with PDF-XChange Viewer.

What follows are the step-by-step instructions that I give to my clients who need to have the capability to do permanent OCR on PDFs they'll be referring to repeatedly with PDF-XChange Viewer:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PDF-XChange Viewer

Used when you receive a PDF that was originally scanned without Optical Character Recognition. For reading stick to Adobe Reader.

1. Open PDF-XChange Viewer from your start menu or desktop, wherever you chose to create the shortcut(s).

2. ALT+F, O Open a file, you’ll need to know where it is and navigate there in the Open Dialog, which is very much like Windows Explorer.

3. CTRL+SHIFT+C Perform optical character recognition on the file. This will be quick for small files, 20 pages or less, but will take some time for very large files, hundreds of pages. Listen for the process to complete.

4. ALT+F, S Save the file over itself with the OCR text now included. If you wish to save the file under a different name and keep the original use ALT+F, A Save As to do this instead.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian


Dave...
 

Gudrun,

It may be that the resultant OCR is not a form that you can fill in and send
back.

I've tried to use the forms mode with my copy of Adobe Acrobat 9, and while
it allows me to tab to fields and enter text, JAWS likes to crash after just
a few attempts -- and does so consistently on JAWS 16. Have not had a chance
yet to try it with JAWS 17.

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, woodworker, Engineer, Musician, and Pioneer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gudrun Brunot" <gbrunot@centurylink.net>
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 01:40 PM
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?


Hello again: I tried opening the W9 file, and I hit the keystroke to OCr it,
and I heard the process start. After a few seconds, I heard the name of the
file. I hit alt-f and s to save it with text layers. Still, nothing appeared
on the braille display or could be heard with JAWS as I tried moving inside
the file. So, after the OCR conversion, what should one do to fill out the
form? Should I reopen the file?


Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 8:57 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

I'll jump in here hoping that what I add will make some sense since the
participants so far clearly have a good grasp of the last two releases of
Adobe Reader and the OCR capabilities of JAWS.

Since many of the PDF files that my clients use are of fairly substantial
page count, and they need to be referenced again and again, having to do OCR
processing more than once can really slow their lives down. I do not know
of any version of Adobe Reader (the free versions) that has any built in OCR
capability. This is why I have introduced them to PDF-XChange Viewer
<http://www.tracker-software.com/PDFXVwer.zip> (this link is the direct
download link for the ZIP file used to install that software). While it
does not consistently "play well" with JAWS in all respects, it is simple to
use the built in OCR scanning function to take a PDF that was originally
scanned as an image file, create a text layer from the images, and save it
back to the original PDF file as a unit. Then you can open it as many times
as you like in the future without needing to go through any OCR process
again. Since I know that JAWS is written to "play well" with specific
programs I encourage them to use Adobe Reader to actually do their reading
of the PDF files that they do OCR processing on and save with PDF-XChange
Viewer.

What follows are the step-by-step instructions that I give to my clients who
need to have the capability to do permanent OCR on PDFs they'll be referring
to repeatedly with PDF-XChange Viewer:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PDF-XChange Viewer

Used when you receive a PDF that was originally scanned without Optical
Character Recognition. For reading stick to Adobe Reader.

1. Open PDF-XChange Viewer from your start menu or desktop, wherever you
chose to create the shortcut(s).

2. ALT+F, O Open a file, you’ll need to know where it is and navigate
there in the Open Dialog, which is very much like Windows Explorer.

3. CTRL+SHIFT+C Perform optical character recognition on the file.
This will be quick for small files, 20 pages or less, but will take some
time for very large files, hundreds of pages. Listen for the process to
complete.

4. ALT+F, S Save the file over itself with the OCR text now included.
If you wish to save the file under a different name and keep the original
use ALT+F, A Save As to do this instead.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Hi Dave: Well, I was able to fill out the form if I turned JAWS off and had my reader tell me where I'd landed, and I could read that form with JAWS and Adobe DC, so I know you're supposed to be able to fill that form out. I just wanted to figure if I could have done it with pdf Exchange Viewer.

Take care,



Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Carlson [mailto:dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 2:15 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

Gudrun,

It may be that the resultant OCR is not a form that you can fill in and send back.

I've tried to use the forms mode with my copy of Adobe Acrobat 9, and while it allows me to tab to fields and enter text, JAWS likes to crash after just a few attempts -- and does so consistently on JAWS 16. Have not had a chance yet to try it with JAWS 17.

Dave Carlson
Oregonian, woodworker, Engineer, Musician, and Pioneer

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gudrun Brunot" <gbrunot@centurylink.net>
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 01:40 PM
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?


Hello again: I tried opening the W9 file, and I hit the keystroke to OCr it,
and I heard the process start. After a few seconds, I heard the name of the
file. I hit alt-f and s to save it with text layers. Still, nothing appeared
on the braille display or could be heard with JAWS as I tried moving inside
the file. So, after the OCR conversion, what should one do to fill out the
form? Should I reopen the file?


Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 8:57 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

I'll jump in here hoping that what I add will make some sense since the
participants so far clearly have a good grasp of the last two releases of
Adobe Reader and the OCR capabilities of JAWS.

Since many of the PDF files that my clients use are of fairly substantial
page count, and they need to be referenced again and again, having to do OCR
processing more than once can really slow their lives down. I do not know
of any version of Adobe Reader (the free versions) that has any built in OCR
capability. This is why I have introduced them to PDF-XChange Viewer
<http://www.tracker-software.com/PDFXVwer.zip> (this link is the direct
download link for the ZIP file used to install that software). While it
does not consistently "play well" with JAWS in all respects, it is simple to
use the built in OCR scanning function to take a PDF that was originally
scanned as an image file, create a text layer from the images, and save it
back to the original PDF file as a unit. Then you can open it as many times
as you like in the future without needing to go through any OCR process
again. Since I know that JAWS is written to "play well" with specific
programs I encourage them to use Adobe Reader to actually do their reading
of the PDF files that they do OCR processing on and save with PDF-XChange
Viewer.

What follows are the step-by-step instructions that I give to my clients who
need to have the capability to do permanent OCR on PDFs they'll be referring
to repeatedly with PDF-XChange Viewer:

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PDF-XChange Viewer

Used when you receive a PDF that was originally scanned without Optical
Character Recognition. For reading stick to Adobe Reader.

1. Open PDF-XChange Viewer from your start menu or desktop, wherever you
chose to create the shortcut(s).

2. ALT+F, O Open a file, you’ll need to know where it is and navigate
there in the Open Dialog, which is very much like Windows Explorer.

3. CTRL+SHIFT+C Perform optical character recognition on the file.
This will be quick for small files, 20 pages or less, but will take some
time for very large files, hundreds of pages. Listen for the process to
complete.

4. ALT+F, S Save the file over itself with the OCR text now included.
If you wish to save the file under a different name and keep the original
use ALT+F, A Save As to do this instead.




------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Brian


 
Edited

Gudrun,

          Now I'm a bit confused, so we're going to have to walk each other through some of the details to see where our differences lie and whether there is something toxic going on between JAWS and Adobe Reader.    Here is the IRS Form W9, straight from the source.  It, like every other IRS PDF file I've ever dealt with, does not need to be OCRed because the thing is developed in Adobe Acrobat and as is should be readable by JAWS.  Mind you, I don't have JAWS here but whenever I am able to do a search in Adobe Reader and find text that has indicated that it should be readable by JAWS.  Now, I haven't worked with anyone as far as what JAWS may or may not read in regard to the fillable fields.

          I just downloaded the above linked form W9 and opened it in Acrobat Reader DC.  I have searched for the phrase "income tax return" and it can be found at two locations.  I have filled in the first two fields, Name and Business Name, respectively, and was allowed to save the form.  When I close Adobe Reader DC entirely and then open the FW9 file that I saved all information I've entered remains there.

          If I hit a single tab once the file opens that places me in the first fillable filed, Name in this case, and each successive tab takes me to the next fillable field, whether that's a text/edit box, check box, etc.  My guess is that once one has focus on the fillable fields that is where it stays unless one uses the F5 command to shift focus back to the PDF document text, that's worth a try, anyway.  Here is the latest collection of Adobe Reader DC keyboard shortcuts.  In a particularly perversely funny twist the keyboard shortcuts for accessibility are available on this page but the direct link to them is hidden unless you hit "show more."  Of course, a search on accessibility will get you there, too.  That being said, the regular keyboard shortcuts may be far more pertinent.

          It would probably help us both if we know we're talking about a specific version of JAWS and a specific version of Adobe Reader.  I would hope that those who create fillable PDF forms would be taking accessibility into consideration (particularly government forms) and that there is some marriage of JAWS and Adobe Reader that would announce what those fields are when you land in them (which, of course, means that field names or alternate text were assigned by the coder).  It also looks as though Adobe Reader itself has some limited capability for reading of forms sans JAWS, but you'd have to play with that to see if it's functional as far as filling in a fillable PDF that you know has a text layer already and doesn't need to be OCRed.

Brian


Carolyn Arnold <4carolyna@...>
 

I could read a couple of things by routing JAWS to PC, otherwise, could not read that PDF.

Bye for now,

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 5:51 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

Gudrun,

Now I'm a bit confused, so we're going to have to walk each other through some of the details to see where our differences lie and whether there is something toxic going on between JAWS and Adobe Reader. Here is the IRS Form W9 <https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf> , straight from the source. It, like every other IRS PDF file I've ever dealt with, does not need to be OCRed because the thing is developed in Adobe Acrobat and as is should be readable by JAWS. Mind you, I don't have JAWS here but whenever I am able to do a search in Adobe Reader and find text that has indicated that it should be readable by JAWS. Now, I haven't worked with anyone as far as what JAWS may or may not read in regard to the fillable fields.

I just downloaded the above linked form W9 and opened it in Acrobat Reader DC. I have searched for the phrase "income tax return" and it can be found at two locations. I have filled in the first two fields, Name and Business Name, respectively, and was allowed to save the form. When I close Adobe Reader DC entirely and then open the FW9 file that I saved all information I've entered remains there.

If I hit a single tab once the file opens that places me in the first fillable filed, Name in this case, and each successive tab takes me to the next fillable field, whether that's a text/edit box, check box, etc. My guess is that once one has focus on the fillable fields that is where it stays unless one uses the F5 command to shift focus back to the PDF document text, that's worth a try, anyway. Here is the latest collection of Adobe Reader DC keyboard shortcuts <https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/using/keyboard-shortcuts.html> . In a particularly perversely funny twist the keyboard shortcuts for accessibility are available on this page but the direct link to them is hidden unless you hit "show more." Of course, a search on accessibility will get you there, too. That being said, the regular keyboard shortcuts may be far more pertinent.

It would probably help us both if we know we're talking about a specific version of JAWS and a specific version of Adobe Reader. I would hope that those who create fillable PDF forms would be taking accessibility into consideration (particularly government forms) and that there is some marriage of JAWS and Adobe Reader that would announce what those fields are when you land in them (which, of course, means that field names or alternate text were assigned by the coder).

Brian


Gudrun Brunot
 

Hi Brian and all: I think I finally understand one important point:

The PDF Exchange viewer is for opening a scanned image-based pdf file, performing OCR of same file, saving it with resulting text layers, but you then close the Exchange Viewer and call up the saved file in Adobe DC to read it or fill it out, am I correct?
Yes, I, too, have followed the download links for W9 forms that people have sent, and, in Adobe DC, I can fill that out. For a situation when you can use a generic W9 form, one should simply download the one that's accessible already.

As I mentioned in another message, some translation agencies want me to use a form that they provide, and there, I'd have to OCR it with Exchange Viewer. I get so many prospective job offers involving PDF files from translation agencies that I will certainly make use of this program. Maybe I'll even be able to accept a few of them rather than spending all my time writing polite and professional-sounding refusal letters due to lack of accessibility.

I have JAWS 16 and 17, both installed on a Windows 7 system. I have experienced some glitches when I call up Adobe and have had to restart the computer. In the middle of navigating through an opened PDF file, JAWS stops speaking, no response from the braille display. Sometimes, the only thing I can do is a "Norwegian shutoff," as some tech support person expressed it. This means that the proper shutdown isn't possible to get to, so all one can do is hit the old button...



Gudrun

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 2:51 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

[Edited Message Follows]

Gudrun,

Now I'm a bit confused, so we're going to have to walk each other through some of the details to see where our differences lie and whether there is something toxic going on between JAWS and Adobe Reader. Here is the IRS Form W9 <https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/fw9.pdf> , straight from the source. It, like every other IRS PDF file I've ever dealt with, does not need to be OCRed because the thing is developed in Adobe Acrobat and as is should be readable by JAWS. Mind you, I don't have JAWS here but whenever I am able to do a search in Adobe Reader and find text that has indicated that it should be readable by JAWS. Now, I haven't worked with anyone as far as what JAWS may or may not read in regard to the fillable fields.

I just downloaded the above linked form W9 and opened it in Acrobat Reader DC. I have searched for the phrase "income tax return" and it can be found at two locations. I have filled in the first two fields, Name and Business Name, respectively, and was allowed to save the form. When I close Adobe Reader DC entirely and then open the FW9 file that I saved all information I've entered remains there.

If I hit a single tab once the file opens that places me in the first fillable filed, Name in this case, and each successive tab takes me to the next fillable field, whether that's a text/edit box, check box, etc. My guess is that once one has focus on the fillable fields that is where it stays unless one uses the F5 command to shift focus back to the PDF document text, that's worth a try, anyway. Here is the latest collection of Adobe Reader DC keyboard shortcuts <https://helpx.adobe.com/acrobat/using/keyboard-shortcuts.html> . In a particularly perversely funny twist the keyboard shortcuts for accessibility are available on this page but the direct link to them is hidden unless you hit "show more." Of course, a search on accessibility will get you there, too. That being said, the regular keyboard shortcuts may be far more pertinent.

It would probably help us both if we know we're talking about a specific version of JAWS and a specific version of Adobe Reader. I would hope that those who create fillable PDF forms would be taking accessibility into consideration (particularly government forms) and that there is some marriage of JAWS and Adobe Reader that would announce what those fields are when you land in them (which, of course, means that field names or alternate text were assigned by the coder). It also looks as though Adobe Reader itself has some limited capability for reading of forms sans JAWS, but you'd have to play with that to see if it's functional as far as filling in a fillable PDF that you know has a text layer already and doesn't need to be OCRed.

Brian


 

On Tue, Dec 29, 2015 at 10:59 am, Gudrun Brunot wrote:

The PDF Exchange viewer is for opening a scanned image-based pdf file, performing OCR of same file, saving it with resulting text layers, but you then close the Exchange Viewer and call up the saved file in Adobe DC to read it or fill it out, am I correct?
Yes, I, too, have followed the download links for W9 forms that people have sent, and, in Adobe DC, I can fill that out. For a situation when you can use a generic W9 form, one should simply download the one that's accessible already.


As I mentioned in another message, some translation agencies want me to use a form that they provide, and there, I'd have to OCR it with Exchange Viewer. I get so many prospective job offers involving PDF files from translation agencies that I will certainly make use of this program. Maybe I'll even be able to accept a few of them rather than spending all my time writing polite and professional-sounding refusal letters due to lack of accessibility.

 Gudrun,

             Yes, you have now grasped what I had hoped I was explaining clearly.  While PDF Exchange Viewer will "play well" to a limited extent with JAWS it, like so many other programs, encounters issues either because it is not coded for accessibility or because JAWS hasn't been coded to work with it (and it's clear to me that there is a LOT of stuff in JAWS that is very one-purpose and one-program customization) or both.   When my clients get a PDF document that they know, based on the source, which is usually their online course management systems, has to actually be text but that was originally scanned as an image PDF I wanted them to be able to independently do the conversion in a timely manner.  I have encouraged them, when this is necessary, to donate the resulting file back to the source so that it could be used in the future.  I can't really even blame the people putting up the image files because some of these are ancient and most folks have no idea that there exists a difference between an image PDF and an accessible PDF with a text layer because, wait for it, they literally don't see it and because they can see they don't have reason to encounter a barrier.   They just pass along what they have.  I'm trying to make the people I tutor become effective advocates for accessibility not just for themselves but for those who are sure to follow later.

              Just so you know, PDF Exchange Viewer's OCR capabilities extend beyond English if that's something you can take advantage of.  I want to say that Spanish, German, and French are included with the downloaded version, but I can't be certain of that list.   My experience with the OCR function on its default settings has been that it is very impressive.  I have used it on documents that are well over 100 pages long and where some of the scans, while not so horrible as to be unreadable to the sighted, are not particularly good, either.   If the image PDFs are from very good to excellent initial documents or scans the recognition is very close to 100%.  You could probably get away with using that function with only very occasional assistance from a sighted helper for something PDF Exchange Viewer's OCR engine simply could not recognize for some reason.

               Oh, as an aside, I think all IRS forms and instructions are and have been accessible using JAWS and Adobe Reader for some time now.  If issues still exist with the fillable forms I'd like to hear what people are encountering (and you might want to report it to Freedom Scientific Technical Support, too).

Brian


Tusing <ptusing@...>
 

Hi, Brian,

i  realize    you  probably did not get my message.

 

I  have  advocated some per Adobe.

In  2011, I  spokewith their  compliance department and

Helped convince them that  ifthe

Kindle was ace(for 6 months) that  Adobe would not want to

Not be accessible also.  I am sure others did the same.

In  Oct  of 2011,

F S finally made  JAWS work better with Adobe.

 

Thanksfor  your info on  JAWS 15 and Word 10.

How is JAWS 16 and Office 10?

 

The  local agency servicing Bllind people and the  Cils and  Easter Seals do not offer  real help  but a mere rare basic help—that most   people

Can’t get and   somehow learn for themselves.

 

Hence I need to  pay somebody.

I  have   worked with a  sighted grad student,  but he

Got confused easily and could not explain anything.

I  have no  problem  knowing where iam,but

I need tofinda person who  hassome familiarity with  JAWS enough

To  put oneself andme on the same page to

Trytofigure out

The Facebook History Channel patge.

 

I  have had fun with sighted help dealing with Amazon (see below)

 

I  have a real beliefthat  anything

Dealing with work should be  accessible with JAWS.

 

And   Facebook  is  vital at work.

 

I aam  enclosing my  notes  on Facebook  (see below).

They begin with the  settings  to  make

Facebook pages accessible.

But the settings do not work with

b.facebook.com.

 

My  problems are with the  History Channel page and program-related threads.

My

Notes

 

Facebook

 

 

 

Facebook with JAWS and MAGic, Lesson 1 (June 2015)

EXERCISE: If you are participating in the live webinar, please open this page outside of the training room and follow along with the

The setting is not enabled b will need to be turned on in either Internet Explorer or Firefox before it can be used. Perform the following steps in either browser to activate it.

1.    Press INSERT+V to activate the JAWS QuickSettings dialog box.

2.    In the search box, begin typing the word "reserve" (without the quotes). You may only need to type the first few letters.

3.    Press the DOWN ARROW to move to the Allow Web Application Reserve Keystrokes setting and press the SPACEBAR to check it.

4.    Tab to and activate the Ok button and the setting will take effect.

The following is a list of Facebook shortcut keys that can easily be used once the setting in JAWS is enabled.

·         Press J to move to the next item in the news feed.

·         Press K to move to the previous item in the news feed.

·         Press L to "like" or "unlike" a post.

·         Press C to comment on a post.

·         Press P to move to the edit box to create a post.

·         Press S to share a post.

·         Press ENTER to open a menu of options related to the current news feed item.

·         Press QUESTION MARK (?) to display a list of these, and other Facebook keyboard shortcuts.

Facebook menus

Many of the Facebook navigation menus are identified as "button menus" by JAWS. For example, you may hear the following when moving through the navigation menus with JAWS:

·         Requests button menu

·         Messages button menu

·         11 Notifications button menu

·         Privacy Shortcuts button menu

·         Account Settings button menu collapsed

Press ENTER when focus is on a button menu to activate it. You will hear the sound indicating that the JAWS Forms Mode turned on. If the item was simply called a "button menu" and did not have the word "collapsed" you will need to turn forms mode off before navigating through the menu items. Press NUMPAD PLUS, or if using laptop layout, press CAPSLOCK+; to turn off forms mode. You can then scroll down with the arrow keys to read the various menu items. Press ESCAPE to close the menu.

If the button menu has the word "collapsed" in it, such as "Account Settings button menu collapsed," once you press ENTER to activate it, you do not need to turn forms mode off. The menu acts like a traditional menu and you can scroll up and down to move through the various items. Press ESCAPE to close the menu without making a selection.

Similar menus are found throughout the Facebook site, including in the news feed.

Navigation regions

The section on a web page containing navigation menus might be placed inside the navigation region. The search controls on a page might be in the search region, and the primary content on the page might be marked with the main region.

JAWS identifies the beginning and end of regions as you navigate through a web page. You can also press the letter R to jump from region to region. Pressing CTRL+INSERT+R will open a list of regions which you can explore with the arrow keys. Finally, if a page has a single "main region" pressing Q will jump straight to that main region.

Note that regions are not visual and are only seen by screen readers such as JAWS.

The Facebook mobile site

the Facebook mobile site m.facebook.com may be easier for some to navigate as it contains less interactive content. Some of the latest additions to enhance the navigation of the mobile site are as follows.

·         Headings are used to mark each item in the news feed

·         A "Main region" is used to mark the beginning and end of the main content on each page

You can switch to the mobile site at any time by pressing ALT+D to move focus to the address bar. Type m.facebook.com and press ENTER. Return to the main Facebook site by typing www.facebook.com into the address bar.

Note that the Facebook shortcut keys such as J and K are not available on the mobile Facebook site. Pressing those particular keys will perform their normal JAWS function.

General Facebook tips

·         Much of the content on the Facebook pages may change without the entire page refreshing. Use the arrow keys to navigate and look for text that may have changed near the cursor.

·         Some dialog boxes may appear but they are embedded in the web page rather than in different windows. This is most often when you are about to do something like deleting a post and Facebook needs to confirm if you want to continue. You can use the arrow keys to find the text and buttons in the message.

·         When working with a button menu, you generally have to activate it first by pressing ENTER on it. Then turn off Forms mode in JAWS before scrolling down to find the menu items.

·         It may be easier to respond to posts, comments, and messages by replying to the e-mails that Facebook sends.

·         If browsing the news feed by headings in JAWS, use the hot key H rather than activating the list of headings. Only a few headings in the news feed will be displayed if you activate the list of headings. Pressing H or using the Facebook hot keys will allow you to find all the items.

Prior page

 

Endof my  notes on Facebook.

 

Hopethey help!

 

There   are people who can do techsupport, but they  do not use FaceBook.

 

And every one does so I  need to knowthis FaceBook  program.

 

I  hope Iam not  being

Pushy,  but I  insert my contact information here.

 

Pat  Tussing

ptusing@...

317 925 3317

 

 

Another situation that amazes me is that  JAWS does not support

The  Amazon music player.

What that creates is that JAWS  users learn iTunes and slowly migrate to the

Apple universe which of course, hurts Freedom Scientific.

I wantas many people to use  JAWS as  possible so the product remains strong.

 

 

 

 

 

Please  consider trying out an option to assist.

 

Also  please stay in touch as

I   absolutelyappreciate those who will advocate for

JAWS users.

 

Most sincerely,

 

Pat

 


Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Sometimes field names will respond to a small change in Verbosity.  For example, Access won’t read Field names in Advanced, but will in Intermediate.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 5:51 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

 

Gudrun,

          Now I'm a bit confused, so we're going to have to walk each other through some of the details to see where our differences lie and whether there is something toxic going on between JAWS and Adobe Reader.    Here is the IRS Form W9, straight from the source.  It, like every other IRS PDF file I've ever dealt with, does not need to be OCRed because the thing is developed in Adobe Acrobat and as is should be readable by JAWS.  Mind you, I don't have JAWS here but whenever I am able to do a search in Adobe Reader and find text that has indicated that it should be readable by JAWS.  Now, I haven't worked with anyone as far as what JAWS may or may not read in regard to the fillable fields.

          I just downloaded the above linked form W9 and opened it in Acrobat Reader DC.  I have searched for the phrase "income tax return" and it can be found at two locations.  I have filled in the first two fields, Name and Business Name, respectively, and was allowed to save the form.  When I close Adobe Reader DC entirely and then open the FW9 file that I saved all information I've entered remains there.

          If I hit a single tab once the file opens that places me in the first fillable filed, Name in this case, and each successive tab takes me to the next fillable field, whether that's a text/edit box, check box, etc.  My guess is that once one has focus on the fillable fields that is where it stays unless one uses the F5 command to shift focus back to the PDF document text, that's worth a try, anyway.  Here is the latest collection of Adobe Reader DC keyboard shortcuts.  In a particularly perversely funny twist the keyboard shortcuts for accessibility are available on this page but the direct link to them is hidden unless you hit "show more."  Of course, a search on accessibility will get you there, too.  That being said, the regular keyboard shortcuts may be far more pertinent.

          It would probably help us both if we know we're talking about a specific version of JAWS and a specific version of Adobe Reader.  I would hope that those who create fillable PDF forms would be taking accessibility into consideration (particularly government forms) and that there is some marriage of JAWS and Adobe Reader that would announce what those fields are when you land in them (which, of course, means that field names or alternate text were assigned by the coder).

Brian