Topics

Enterprise software


epierce@...
 

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose working conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety, ADA, and so forth.

In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have not historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products in a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


Adrian Spratt
 

You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity, and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety, ADA,
and so forth.

In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


epierce@...
 

Given that employees (who are acting in good faith) have little or no real legal protection from being attacked by enterprise software vendors with political connections that have deeply evil motivations, it isn't apparent to me why you would refer to the harsh realities involved in surviving in the current, typically toxic workplace as "passivity".

I take it that you have no actual experience with worker representation, or how accessibility is actually taken up in highly dysfunctional organizational cultures.

The balance of power is usually overwhelmingly weighted against an employee that dares to complain. Period.

Nothing will change until the existing, flawed architectures of the cash cows products of large enterprise software vendors are redone from the ground up with "accessibility built in". Until that paradigm shift takes place (probably about the same time as world peace is established), the vendors will viciously guard their profit centers and make sure that the management (including the accessibility bureaucracy) of their customers "buys in" to maintaining the status quo.

I hope you can "connect the dots" here. Again, the employee typically has almost no power, and the employer and vendor have almost all the power.

A situation has evolved where customer management typically has a vested interest in maintaining power by viciously suppressing any significant internal criticism of problems with enterprise software.

I would be overwhelmed with happiness if you could cite cases to the contrary of legal or administrative settlements that involve enterprise software accessibility.

To give you some idea of the appalling climate for workers in many organizations, please see the article at the following link:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html

"Is Your Boss a Psychopath?
Odds are you've run across one of these characters in your career. They're glib, charming, manipulative, deceitful, ruthless -- and very, very destructive. And there may be lots of them in America's corner offices."
BY Alan Deutschman
12-19-2007


Adrian Spratt
 

Hi, ipierce. I wouldn't have responded to your previous message if I lacked
the experience to counter it. I hesitated to continue this off-topic thread,
but I didn't want your post to discourage users of adaptive software from
asserting their needs. If you are an advocate of workers' rights, I wish you
well. Just try not to make the kind of assumption you did here and get too
caught up in your rhetoric.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:31 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: Enterprise software

Given that employees (who are acting in good faith) have little or no real
legal protection from being attacked by enterprise software vendors with
political connections that have deeply evil motivations, it isn't apparent
to me why you would refer to the harsh realities involved in surviving in
the current, typically toxic workplace as "passivity".

I take it that you have no actual experience with worker representation, or
how accessibility is actually taken up in highly dysfunctional
organizational cultures.

The balance of power is usually overwhelmingly weighted against an employee
that dares to complain. Period.

Nothing will change until the existing, flawed architectures of the cash
cows products of large enterprise software vendors are redone from the
ground up with "accessibility built in". Until that paradigm shift takes
place (probably about the same time as world peace is established), the
vendors will viciously guard their profit centers and make sure that the
management (including the accessibility bureaucracy) of their customers
"buys in" to maintaining the status quo.

I hope you can "connect the dots" here. Again, the employee typically has
almost no power, and the employer and vendor have almost all the power.

A situation has evolved where customer management typically has a vested
interest in maintaining power by viciously suppressing any significant
internal criticism of problems with enterprise software.

I would be overwhelmed with happiness if you could cite cases to the
contrary of legal or administrative settlements that involve enterprise
software accessibility.

To give you some idea of the appalling climate for workers in many
organizations, please see the article at the following link:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html

"Is Your Boss a Psychopath?
Odds are you've run across one of these characters in your career. They're
glib, charming, manipulative, deceitful, ruthless -- and very, very
destructive. And there may be lots of them in America's corner offices."
BY Alan Deutschman
12-19-2007


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


epierce@...
 

This is not about rhetoric, it is about the real world, and how predatory corporatists have taken over, and gained so much power that they are able to get employers to viciously attack workers who complain about the various cr*ppy aspects of enterprise software, and how its use destroys human decency in an organization.

To the predatory, psychopathic corporatist, accessibility is not something that deserves any real attention, they will pay a lot more money to make sure that their products are "compliant" for legal purposes than they pay to have them re-engineered so that actual average disabled people can use them (not test bots).

Style over substance.

Legal compliance vs. actual usability.

In the corporate ethos in which these products exist, caring about actual human beings (disabled or not) is only given lip service. What really matters is ego gratification, power and greed.

If you can provide significant proof that any of the enterprise products under discussion have improved their accessibility in a meaningful way in the last 5 years, I will donate $150 to any blind advocacy organization of your choice.

Thanks

---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 23:06:00 -0400
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of Adrian Spratt <Adrian@AdrianSpratt.com>)
Subject: RE: Enterprise software
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

Hi, ipierce. I wouldn't have responded to your previous message if I lacked
the experience to counter it. I hesitated to continue this off-topic thread,
but I didn't want your post to discourage users of adaptive software from
asserting their needs. If you are an advocate of workers' rights, I wish you
well. Just try not to make the kind of assumption you did here and get too
caught up in your rhetoric.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:31 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: Enterprise software

Given that employees (who are acting in good faith) have little or no real
legal protection from being attacked by enterprise software vendors with
political connections that have deeply evil motivations, it isn't apparent
to me why you would refer to the harsh realities involved in surviving in
the current, typically toxic workplace as "passivity".

I take it that you have no actual experience with worker representation, or
how accessibility is actually taken up in highly dysfunctional
organizational cultures.

The balance of power is usually overwhelmingly weighted against an employee
that dares to complain. Period.

Nothing will change until the existing, flawed architectures of the cash
cows products of large enterprise software vendors are redone from the
ground up with "accessibility built in". Until that paradigm shift takes
place (probably about the same time as world peace is established), the
vendors will viciously guard their profit centers and make sure that the
management (including the accessibility bureaucracy) of their customers
"buys in" to maintaining the status quo.

I hope you can "connect the dots" here. Again, the employee typically has
almost no power, and the employer and vendor have almost all the power.

A situation has evolved where customer management typically has a vested
interest in maintaining power by viciously suppressing any significant
internal criticism of problems with enterprise software.

I would be overwhelmed with happiness if you could cite cases to the
contrary of legal or administrative settlements that involve enterprise
software accessibility.

To give you some idea of the appalling climate for workers in many
organizations, please see the article at the following link:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html

"Is Your Boss a Psychopath?
Odds are you've run across one of these characters in your career. They're
glib, charming, manipulative, deceitful, ruthless -- and very, very
destructive. And there may be lots of them in America's corner offices."
BY Alan Deutschman
12-19-2007


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Dave Mitchell
 

Dude, Please take it off list or show us how to do it with your own company or both. Thank you.

----- Original Message -----
From: <epierce@surewest.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:39 PM
Subject: RE: Enterprise software


This is not about rhetoric, it is about the real world, and how predatory corporatists have taken over, and gained so much power that they are able to get employers to viciously attack workers who complain about the various cr*ppy aspects of enterprise software, and how its use destroys human decency in an organization.

To the predatory, psychopathic corporatist, accessibility is not something that deserves any real attention, they will pay a lot more money to make sure that their products are "compliant" for legal purposes than they pay to have them re-engineered so that actual average disabled people can use them (not test bots).

Style over substance.

Legal compliance vs. actual usability.

In the corporate ethos in which these products exist, caring about actual human beings (disabled or not) is only given lip service. What really matters is ego gratification, power and greed.

If you can provide significant proof that any of the enterprise products under discussion have improved their accessibility in a meaningful way in the last 5 years, I will donate $150 to any blind advocacy organization of your choice.

Thanks

---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 23:06:00 -0400
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of Adrian Spratt <Adrian@AdrianSpratt.com>)
Subject: RE: Enterprise software
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

Hi, ipierce. I wouldn't have responded to your previous message if I lacked
the experience to counter it. I hesitated to continue this off-topic thread,
but I didn't want your post to discourage users of adaptive software from
asserting their needs. If you are an advocate of workers' rights, I wish you
well. Just try not to make the kind of assumption you did here and get too
caught up in your rhetoric.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 8:31 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: Enterprise software

Given that employees (who are acting in good faith) have little or no real
legal protection from being attacked by enterprise software vendors with
political connections that have deeply evil motivations, it isn't apparent
to me why you would refer to the harsh realities involved in surviving in
the current, typically toxic workplace as "passivity".

I take it that you have no actual experience with worker representation, or
how accessibility is actually taken up in highly dysfunctional
organizational cultures.

The balance of power is usually overwhelmingly weighted against an employee
that dares to complain. Period.

Nothing will change until the existing, flawed architectures of the cash
cows products of large enterprise software vendors are redone from the
ground up with "accessibility built in". Until that paradigm shift takes
place (probably about the same time as world peace is established), the
vendors will viciously guard their profit centers and make sure that the
management (including the accessibility bureaucracy) of their customers
"buys in" to maintaining the status quo.

I hope you can "connect the dots" here. Again, the employee typically has
almost no power, and the employer and vendor have almost all the power.

A situation has evolved where customer management typically has a vested
interest in maintaining power by viciously suppressing any significant
internal criticism of problems with enterprise software.

I would be overwhelmed with happiness if you could cite cases to the
contrary of legal or administrative settlements that involve enterprise
software accessibility.

To give you some idea of the appalling climate for workers in many
organizations, please see the article at the following link:

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/96/open_boss.html

"Is Your Boss a Psychopath?
Odds are you've run across one of these characters in your career. They're
glib, charming, manipulative, deceitful, ruthless -- and very, very
destructive. And there may be lots of them in America's corner offices."
BY Alan Deutschman
12-19-2007


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


epierce@...
 

Please find out and publish how many blind employees any of these companies have, and what their general responsibilities are.

Do you understand the business practices of these companies? Do you understand the massive resources at their disposal to create severe anti-competitive conditions in the market? Abetted by customer management?

Do you understand why there is a movement called "Access built in" that some leaders of disability advocacy feel is the ONLY way to get "real" accessibility in such products?

---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:52:06 -0700
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of "Dave Mitchell" <mitch@orbitelcom.com>)
Subject: Re: Enterprise software
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

Dude, Please take it off list or show us how to do it with your own company
or both. Thank you.
...


brad
 

NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS LIST. I WAS BEGINNING TO THINK I GOT SOME SORT OF
E-MAIL VIRUS SPAM OR SOMETHING

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 9:16 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: Enterprise software

Please find out and publish how many blind employees any of these companies
have, and what their general responsibilities are.

Do you understand the business practices of these companies? Do you
understand the massive resources at their disposal to create severe
anti-competitive conditions in the market? Abetted by customer management?

Do you understand why there is a movement called "Access built in" that some
leaders of disability advocacy feel is the ONLY way to get "real"
accessibility in such products?

---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:52:06 -0700
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of "Dave Mitchell"
<mitch@orbitelcom.com>)
Subject: Re: Enterprise software
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

Dude, Please take it off list or show us how to do it with your own
company or both. Thank you.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Chris Smart <csmart8@...>
 

This may be off topic, but JAWS stands for job access with speech, and this is a real concern for many of us actually trying to earn a living yes, using a screen reader.
--------------------------------------------------
CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING!
http://www.ctsmastering.com

Dropbox: Have your stuff when you need it. 2GB is free
http://db.tt/bQ2GuIt


Roger Loran Bailey <rogerbailey81@...>
 

Let me say that I agree and sympathize with your concerns about rapacious companies that put profit before people. However, I, and I would suppose most people on this list, get a lot of email and we subscribe to certain lists for specific purposes. I subscribed to this one specifically to learn how to more proficiently use JAWS. Let me suggest another list where these comments are on topic and would be welcome. It is the Blind-Democracy list. Other subscribers are actually activists in the blind accessibility and rights movement. You can subscribe here: http://www.octothorp.org/mailman/listinfo/blind-democracy

On 3/18/2012 12:21 PM, Chris Smart wrote:
This may be off topic, but JAWS stands for job access with speech, and this is a real concern for many of us actually trying to earn a living yes, using a screen reader.
--------------------------------------------------
CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING!
http://www.ctsmastering.com

Dropbox: Have your stuff when you need it. 2GB is free
http://db.tt/bQ2GuIt


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Claudia
 

I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same impact on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably an understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues, regarding screen reading software.

Claudia

On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity, and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety, ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Dave...
 

Have any of these so-called helpful people bothered to call Freedom
Scientific to get their help?

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia" <cdelreal1973@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2012 22:49
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major
source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I
have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same
impact on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably
an understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I
surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind
in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues,
regarding screen reading software.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In
my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity, and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its
eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose
working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety,
ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have
not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products
in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Claudia
 

Hi,

I do feel that this discussion needs to be had. In my personal situation, I honestly am to the point of wanting to quit. My last job was a breeze, compared to the new position I accepted and began on March 5.
I have run into nothing but problems, in terms of accessibility to employer-related data bases. I have had very limited success in accessing what I need to access, in order to serve my clients.
I work for a state entity and took this job, because of the benefits involved. I thought I was trying to get my family further ahead financially, but the emotional toll this is taking is truly affecting my mental well-being.

Claudia

On 3/17/2012 11:28 PM, brad wrote:
NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS LIST. I WAS BEGINNING TO THINK I GOT SOME SORT OF
E-MAIL VIRUS SPAM OR SOMETHING


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 9:16 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: Enterprise software

Please find out and publish how many blind employees any of these companies
have, and what their general responsibilities are.

Do you understand the business practices of these companies? Do you
understand the massive resources at their disposal to create severe
anti-competitive conditions in the market? Abetted by customer management?

Do you understand why there is a movement called "Access built in" that some
leaders of disability advocacy feel is the ONLY way to get "real"
accessibility in such products?

---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:52:06 -0700
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of "Dave Mitchell"
<mitch@orbitelcom.com>)
Subject: Re: Enterprise software
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list."<jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

Dude, Please take it off list or show us how to do it with your own
company or both. Thank you.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Karen Hughes <khughes8@...>
 

have you tried downloading
n v d a
this is like jaws and free. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia" <cdelreal1973@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same impact on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably an understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues, regarding screen reading software.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity, and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety, ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Dave...
 

No, hadn't given it a moment's thought. What are its advantages over JAWS,
besides the price? Does it have on-line and telephone support, for example?
How does it do with MS-Excel, which is the second-most important application
in my job? How does it work with Outlook 2007? Give us your experiences.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit

----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Hughes" <khughes8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 06:39
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


have you tried downloading
n v d a
this is like jaws and free. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia" <cdelreal1973@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major
source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I
have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same impact
on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably an
understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I
surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind
in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues, regarding
screen reading software.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to
quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In
my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity,
and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its
eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose
working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety,
ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have
not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products
in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Dave...
 

My apologies for being vague. The below response is directed to Karen
Hughes, our NVDA advocate. Karen, I solicit your knowledge in addition to
your opinions.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit

----- Original Message -----
From: "Farfar, and Proud of It" <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 06:52
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


No, hadn't given it a moment's thought. What are its advantages over JAWS,
besides the price? Does it have on-line and telephone support, for example?
How does it do with MS-Excel, which is the second-most important application
in my job? How does it work with Outlook 2007? Give us your experiences.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Hughes" <khughes8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 06:39
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


have you tried downloading
n v d a
this is like jaws and free. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia" <cdelreal1973@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major
source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I
have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same impact
on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably an
understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I
surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind
in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues, regarding
screen reading software.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to
quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In
my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity,
and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its
eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose
working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety,
ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have
not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products
in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Chris Smart <csmart8@...>
 

have any of the I T people contacted Freedom Scientific directly?

At 01:58 AM 4/17/2012, you wrote:
Hi,

I do feel that this discussion needs to be had. In my personal situation, I honestly am to the point of wanting to quit. My last job was a breeze, compared to the new position I accepted and began on March 5.
I have run into nothing but problems, in terms of accessibility to employer-related data bases. I have had very limited success in accessing what I need to access, in order to serve my clients.
I work for a state entity and took this job, because of the benefits involved. I thought I was trying to get my family further ahead financially, but the emotional toll this is taking is truly affecting my mental well-being.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 11:28 PM, brad wrote:
NOT APPROPRIATE FOR THIS LIST. I WAS BEGINNING TO THINK I GOT SOME SORT OF
E-MAIL VIRUS SPAM OR SOMETHING


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 9:16 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: Enterprise software

Please find out and publish how many blind employees any of these companies
have, and what their general responsibilities are.

Do you understand the business practices of these companies? Do you
understand the massive resources at their disposal to create severe
anti-competitive conditions in the market? Abetted by customer management?

Do you understand why there is a movement called "Access built in" that some
leaders of disability advocacy feel is the ONLY way to get "real"
accessibility in such products?

---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 17 Mar 2012 20:52:06 -0700
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of "Dave Mitchell"
<mitch@orbitelcom.com>)
Subject: Re: Enterprise software
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list."<jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

Dude, Please take it off list or show us how to do it with your own
company or both. Thank you.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
--------------------------------------------------
CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING!
http://www.ctsmastering.com

Dropbox: Have your stuff when you need it. 2GB is free
http://db.tt/bQ2GuIt


Gary King
 

Dave,
I'm afraid that the problem with NVDA and other free solutions is that you don't get the same level of automatic feedback that you do with JAWS. The last time I tried NVDA with Excel, it read the contents of the cells and the cell coordinates, but not the column and row titles. That was a show-stopper for me.

For people who can't afford a commercial screen reader and who are using a computer at home for entertainment, a free screen reader will suffice, but if they want to be productive on the job, they will have to pay the price.

Gary King
w4wkz@bellsouth.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Farfar, and Proud of It" <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


No, hadn't given it a moment's thought. What are its advantages over JAWS,
besides the price? Does it have on-line and telephone support, for example?
How does it do with MS-Excel, which is the second-most important application
in my job? How does it work with Outlook 2007? Give us your experiences.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Hughes" <khughes8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 06:39
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


have you tried downloading
n v d a
this is like jaws and free. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia" <cdelreal1973@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major
source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I
have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same impact
on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably an
understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I
surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind
in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues, regarding
screen reading software.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to
quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In
my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity,
and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its
eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose
working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety,
ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have
not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such products
in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
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Marquette, Ed <Ed.Marquette@...>
 

Gary is 100% correct. For instance, try figuring out revisions in a Word document which contains track changes with NVDA. Doesn't even get to first base.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Gary King
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 12:28 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: Enterprise software

Dave,
I'm afraid that the problem with NVDA and other free solutions is that you
don't get the same level of automatic feedback that you do with JAWS. The
last time I tried NVDA with Excel, it read the contents of the cells and the
cell coordinates, but not the column and row titles. That was a
show-stopper for me.

For people who can't afford a commercial screen reader and who are using a
computer at home for entertainment, a free screen reader will suffice, but
if they want to be productive on the job, they will have to pay the price.

Gary King
w4wkz@bellsouth.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Farfar, and Proud of It" <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


No, hadn't given it a moment's thought. What are its advantages over JAWS,
besides the price? Does it have on-line and telephone support, for
example?
How does it do with MS-Excel, which is the second-most important
application
in my job? How does it work with Outlook 2007? Give us your experiences.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Hughes" <khughes8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 06:39
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


have you tried downloading
n v d a
this is like jaws and free. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia" <cdelreal1973@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major
source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I
have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same
impact
on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably an
understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I
surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind
in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues,
regarding
screen reading software.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to
quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In
my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their
adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven
by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity,
and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its
eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility
should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose
working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety,
ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have
not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally
accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be
very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such
products
in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
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Thank you.


Dave...
 

Gary,

I suspected as much, and thank you and Ed for the insights. I hope that
we'll hear from Karen to see if there is anything else she can share about
her personal experiences with NVDA.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gary King" <w4wkz@bellsouth.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 10:27
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


Dave,
I'm afraid that the problem with NVDA and other free solutions is that you
don't get the same level of automatic feedback that you do with JAWS. The
last time I tried NVDA with Excel, it read the contents of the cells and the
cell coordinates, but not the column and row titles. That was a
show-stopper for me.

For people who can't afford a commercial screen reader and who are using a
computer at home for entertainment, a free screen reader will suffice, but
if they want to be productive on the job, they will have to pay the price.

Gary King
w4wkz@bellsouth.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Farfar, and Proud of It" <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 8:52 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


No, hadn't given it a moment's thought. What are its advantages over JAWS,
besides the price? Does it have on-line and telephone support, for
example?
How does it do with MS-Excel, which is the second-most important
application
in my job? How does it work with Outlook 2007? Give us your experiences.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit


----- Original Message -----
From: "Karen Hughes" <khughes8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 06:39
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


have you tried downloading
n v d a
this is like jaws and free. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Claudia" <cdelreal1973@sbcglobal.net>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Tuesday, April 17, 2012 1:49 AM
Subject: Re: Enterprise software


I am experiencing this very problem, at the moment.
Seven weeks on my new job, and the accessibility component is a major
source of frustration for me.
All of the powers that be, within the agency, know my issues because I
have been very vocal about them, but they don't get it.
Unless they're physically affected by it, it will not have the same
impact
on them. To say that I am frustrated, at this point, is probably an
understatement.
If I'd have known that there were going to be all of these issues, I
surely would have thought twice about taking this position.
I was under the impression that they'd dealt with a person who was blind
in the past and therefore had knowledge of accessibility issues,
regarding
screen reading software.

Claudia


On 3/17/2012 12:20 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
You don't state your source for these statements, but you appear to
quote
them to support your argument in another post for employee passivity. In
my
experience, disabled employees who are too timid to assert their
adaptive
needs suffer more harm than if they resign themselves to limits driven
by
fear of job loss. Agreed, it is important to know what the limits of
accessibility may be in a particular area, which is perhaps what you're
suggesting, but you go too far. Nothing damages morale like passivity,
and
nothing impairs the respect an employee can earn than inability to work
productively with the employer's software.

Note that a company as big as Oracle, which produces not only its
eponymous
database but also PeopleSoft, should be held accountable for their
accessibility, just as Microsoft has been. This may be something for the
ACB, NFB, the Justice Department and other organizations to take up.
Meanwhile, employees who are harmed by their limited accessibility
should
ensure their supervisors know, and accommodations can be demanded.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of epierce@surewest.net
Sent: Saturday, March 17, 2012 11:52 AM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: Fwd: Enterprise software

fyi

---- Original message ----
...

Have you asked your union to investigate compliance issues?

Typically, union representatives can help you with not only workplace
specific contract violations, but can also assist an employee whose
working
conditions are bad where those conditions are violating organizational
policies, or state or federal labor laws, workplace health and safety,
ADA,
and so forth.
In some cases, large, expensive enterprise software packages that have
not
historically been designed to be accessible are made minimally
accessible
primarily for purposes of legal compliance (to minimize the company's
exposure to litigation) in newer versions. However, there may not be
very
many visually impaired people that are actually able to use such
products
in
a productive or effective manner directly via the standard interface.
...


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