PDF in Firefox (or any browser)


Susan Kallsen <skallsen@...>
 

I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online in a
browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads everything very
well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab INTO the actual PDF, it
just tabs between the URL and other things at the top of the page in
Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the actual document?



Thanks!



Susan

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Eric Ngondi
 

hi all,
susan, wish i could help! i keep on hearing " blank document " or
"empty document " anybody please to help us???

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:


I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online in a
browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads everything very
well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab INTO the actual PDF, it
just tabs between the URL and other things at the top of the page in
Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the actual document?



Thanks!



Susan

-------------- next part --------------
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--

-------------------------------------
ERIC N. NGONDI
+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk


Ann Byrne
 

Hi, Eric,

Send the document to convert@robobraille.org, placing in the subject line the type of file you want returned, such as .txt or .doc. It will come back within a few hours or less, translated into the format you wrote in the subject line.

Best,

Ann

At 02:37 PM 2/23/2012, you wrote:
hi all,
susan, wish i could help! i keep on hearing " blank document " or
"empty document " anybody please to help us???

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:


I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online in a
browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads everything very
well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab INTO the
actual PDF, it
just tabs between the URL and other things at the top of the page in
Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the actual document?



Thanks!



Susan

-------------- next part --------------
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Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

--

-------------------------------------
ERIC N. NGONDI
+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
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Susan Kallsen <skallsen@...>
 

I have to add an IE question to this also!

My PDF is read by JAWS accurately in Firefox (as long as my cursor is
manually placed into the text area, see my issue with this below) but I just
tried it in Internet Explorer and it's not even recognizing it if I manually
place my cursor in the document.

More info: I created this in Acrobat Pro using all of the Accessibility tags
and edits necessary for it to "pass" as an entirely accessible document.

Welcome any tips or ideas! Thanks,

Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Eric Ngondi
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:38 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

hi all,
susan, wish i could help! i keep on hearing " blank document " or "empty
document " anybody please to help us???

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:


I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online
in a browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads
everything very well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab
INTO the actual PDF, it just tabs between the URL and other things at
the top of the page in Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the actual
document?



Thanks!



Susan

-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
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Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

--

-------------------------------------
ERIC N. NGONDI
+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
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Adrian Spratt
 

Have you tried switching to the JAWS cursor? If that cursor takes you inside
the PDF form, try pressing JAWS key+numpad + to route the PC cursor to the
JAWS cursor.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Susan Kallsen
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:40 PM
To: jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
Subject: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)



I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online in a
browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads everything very
well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab INTO the actual PDF, it
just tabs between the URL and other things at the top of the page in
Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the actual document?



Thanks!



Susan

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Soronel Haetir
 

Honestly, even when I could still see I never had success with acrobat
hosted in the browser. Even then I was pretty much stuck saving the
file and loading it in reader.

Is having the PDF be a browser hosted form really a make or break issue for you?

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:
I have to add an IE question to this also!

My PDF is read by JAWS accurately in Firefox (as long as my cursor is
manually placed into the text area, see my issue with this below) but I just
tried it in Internet Explorer and it's not even recognizing it if I manually
place my cursor in the document.

More info: I created this in Acrobat Pro using all of the Accessibility tags
and edits necessary for it to "pass" as an entirely accessible document.

Welcome any tips or ideas! Thanks,

Susan


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Eric Ngondi
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:38 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

hi all,
susan, wish i could help! i keep on hearing " blank document " or "empty
document " anybody please to help us???

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:


I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online
in a browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads
everything very well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab
INTO the actual PDF, it just tabs between the URL and other things at
the top of the page in Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the actual
document?



Thanks!



Susan

-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
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20120223/b7b62be5/attachment.html>
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Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

--

-------------------------------------
ERIC N. NGONDI
+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
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--
Soronel Haetir
soronel.haetir@gmail.com


Gary King
 

Susan,
I don't have Acrobat on my computer, but I do have Acrobat Reader X. I see that under Preferences in the Edit Menu, I have the box checked that allows a PDF document to be displayed in a Browser.

Normally, I just download my PDF documents instead with Save Target As, so I guess I could uncheck that box. In your case, you might check to see how your preference is set. It may make a difference.

Gary King
w4wkz@bellsouth.net

----- Original Message -----
From: "Susan Kallsen" <skallsen@gmail.com>
To: <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 1:39 PM
Subject: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)




I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online in a
browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads everything very
well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab INTO the actual PDF, it
just tabs between the URL and other things at the top of the page in
Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the actual document?



Thanks!



Susan

-------------- next part --------------
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Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
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Susan Kallsen <skallsen@...>
 

I think it has to be online in the browser since I need users to submit it
once they complete the test. Then it goes to an email address. Or
supposedly, since I haven't figured that out yet!! (any suggestions?)
Sorry, I should have said it's an online test form.

Gary, thanks for the suggestion about allowing PDFs to open in a browser,
unfortunately I already had that checked.

Adrian, Would you explain switching to a JAWS cursor for me? I'm learning
JAWS as I work on this project and I'm not sure what that is or what a JAWS
key would be?

Thanks all,

Susan

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Soronel Haetir
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:15 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

Honestly, even when I could still see I never had success with acrobat
hosted in the browser. Even then I was pretty much stuck saving the file
and loading it in reader.

Is having the PDF be a browser hosted form really a make or break issue for
you?

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:
I have to add an IE question to this also!

My PDF is read by JAWS accurately in Firefox (as long as my cursor is
manually placed into the text area, see my issue with this below) but
I just tried it in Internet Explorer and it's not even recognizing it
if I manually place my cursor in the document.

More info: I created this in Acrobat Pro using all of the
Accessibility tags and edits necessary for it to "pass" as an entirely
accessible document.

Welcome any tips or ideas! Thanks,

Susan


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Eric Ngondi
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:38 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

hi all,
susan, wish i could help! i keep on hearing " blank document " or
"empty document " anybody please to help us???

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:


I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online
in a browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads
everything very well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab
INTO the actual PDF, it just tabs between the URL and other things at
the top of the page in Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the
actual
document?



Thanks!



Susan

-------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
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/
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Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

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-------------------------------------
ERIC N. NGONDI
+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
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--
Soronel Haetir
soronel.haetir@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
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http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


Mike & Barbara <mb69mach1@...>
 

Hi Susan,

Below is an explanation of all 4 cursors used in the JAWS program.

About JAWS Cursors
Navigating through Windows with JAWS is accomplished with cursors. These
cursors determine the focus of JAWS speech and are often directly linked
with Windows cursors.

The PC Cursor - Follows Keystrokes
This cursor is linked to the keyboard functions of Windows and
applications.
This is the cursor that is used when typing information, moving through
options in dialog boxes, and selecting options or icons. As you type
information, the PC Cursor follows along with each key you press. If you
are
making a selection in a menu or dialog box, the PC Cursor highlights the
currently selected object. The PC Cursor is activated by default when JAWS
starts. If you are using a different cursor, pressing NUM PAD PLUS returns
you to the PC Cursor.

The JAWS Cursor - Follows Mouse Pointer
The JAWS Cursor is linked to mouse pointer functions in Windows and other
applications. It is used to read information the PC Cursor cannot read,
such
as toolbar information. The mouse follows along with the JAWS Cursor when
it
is moved, and you therefore have access to information in an application
window that is beyond the scope of the PC Cursor. To activate the JAWS
Cursor, press NUM PAD MINUS.

The Virtual PC Cursor - HTML Environment
The virtual PC Cursor mimics the functions of the PC Cursor, but is
activated by default when entering an HTML document. The virtual PC Cursor
speaks the number of frames in a document, and the number of links in the
frame. You can switch between frames, and JAWS reads graphics labeled by
alt
tags in the HTML code.



Invisible Cursor

The JAWS cursor is basically the mouse cursor that is visible on screen.
The invisible cursor can be moved around just like the JAWS cursor to view
information. It works like the mouse cursor but can not be seen on screen
or effect objects. Therefore you can not use the NumPad / (left mouse
click) or NumPad * (right mouse click) on an object. It is useful to read
information without disturbing the mouse cursor. It is also useful to
determine colors or whatever might change when the mouse is over an object.
It will not cause ToolTips to pop up.





Hope this helped. Take care.

Mike

----- Original Message -----
From: Susan Kallsen
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 3:21 PM
Subject: RE: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)


I think it has to be online in the browser since I need users to submit it
once they complete the test. Then it goes to an email address. Or
supposedly, since I haven't figured that out yet!! (any suggestions?)
Sorry, I should have said it's an online test form.

Gary, thanks for the suggestion about allowing PDFs to open in a browser,
unfortunately I already had that checked.

Adrian, Would you explain switching to a JAWS cursor for me? I'm learning
JAWS as I work on this project and I'm not sure what that is or what a
JAWS
key would be?

Thanks all,

Susan


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Soronel Haetir
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:15 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

Honestly, even when I could still see I never had success with acrobat
hosted in the browser. Even then I was pretty much stuck saving the file
and loading it in reader.

Is having the PDF be a browser hosted form really a make or break issue
for
you?

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:
> I have to add an IE question to this also!
>
> My PDF is read by JAWS accurately in Firefox (as long as my cursor is
> manually placed into the text area, see my issue with this below) but
> I just tried it in Internet Explorer and it's not even recognizing it
> if I manually place my cursor in the document.
>
> More info: I created this in Acrobat Pro using all of the
> Accessibility tags and edits necessary for it to "pass" as an entirely
accessible document.
>
> Welcome any tips or ideas! Thanks,
>
> Susan
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
> [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
> On Behalf Of Eric Ngondi
> Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:38 PM
> To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
> Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)
>
> hi all,
> susan, wish i could help! i keep on hearing " blank document " or
> "empty document " anybody please to help us???
>
> On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!
>>
>>
>>
>> I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online
>> in a browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads
>> everything very well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab
>> INTO the actual PDF, it just tabs between the URL and other things at
>> the top of the page in Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the
>> actual
> document?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>>
>>
>> Susan
>>
>> -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was
>> scrubbed...
>> URL:
>> <http://lists.the-jdh.com/pipermail/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com/attachments
>> /
>> 20120223/b7b62be5/attachment.html>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Jfw mailing list
>> Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
>> http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
>>
>
>
> --
>
> -------------------------------------
> ERIC N. NGONDI
> +0720963825
>
> ensambi@yahoo.co.uk
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jfw mailing list
> Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
> http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Jfw mailing list
> Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
> http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
>


--
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soronel.haetir@gmail.com

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Adrian Spratt
 

Susan,

My suggestion is a long shot. Mike's post explains the different purposes of
the cursors, and I hope it clarifies my idea. It's worth a try. However, I
can think of at least one website where I encountered an embedded PDF file,
and I couldn't access it no matter what I tried. I'm afraid Soronel's
skepticism here may be justified. Maybe you could let us know if you get
anywhere. Your effort to make your website fully accessible is appreciated.

One more thought just came to me. I wonder if the limited OCR function that
is new to JAWS 13 might help.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Susan Kallsen
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 6:21 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

I think it has to be online in the browser since I need users to submit it
once they complete the test. Then it goes to an email address. Or
supposedly, since I haven't figured that out yet!! (any suggestions?) Sorry,
I should have said it's an online test form.

Gary, thanks for the suggestion about allowing PDFs to open in a browser,
unfortunately I already had that checked.

Adrian, Would you explain switching to a JAWS cursor for me? I'm learning
JAWS as I work on this project and I'm not sure what that is or what a JAWS
key would be?

Thanks all,

Susan


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Soronel Haetir
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 4:15 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

Honestly, even when I could still see I never had success with acrobat
hosted in the browser. Even then I was pretty much stuck saving the file
and loading it in reader.

Is having the PDF be a browser hosted form really a make or break issue for
you?

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:
I have to add an IE question to this also!

My PDF is read by JAWS accurately in Firefox (as long as my cursor is
manually placed into the text area, see my issue with this below) but
I just tried it in Internet Explorer and it's not even recognizing it
if I manually place my cursor in the document.

More info: I created this in Acrobat Pro using all of the
Accessibility tags and edits necessary for it to "pass" as an entirely
accessible document.

Welcome any tips or ideas! Thanks,

Susan


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Eric Ngondi
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2012 2:38 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)

hi all,
susan, wish i could help! i keep on hearing " blank document " or
"empty document " anybody please to help us???

On 2/23/12, Susan Kallsen <skallsen@gmail.com> wrote:


I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!



I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat that is used online
in a browser. Once the cursor is IN the text area, JAWS reads
everything very well. But I can't figure out how to get JAWS to tab
INTO the actual PDF, it just tabs between the URL and other things at
the top of the page in Firefox. How do I get it to jump into the
actual
document?



Thanks!



Susan

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-------------------------------------
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+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk

_______________________________________________
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--
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soronel.haetir@gmail.com

_______________________________________________
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epierce@...
 

Susan,

This is probably not the simple answer your want.

".pdf" technologies were originally designed long before "accessibility" was a legal requirement. the whole point was to create a proprietary technology for doing advanced graphics, *cross-platform*.

As such, any pretense of industry standards was jettisoned early on. In the IT industry "proprietary" = "profitable".

In a sane world ruled by people who are compassionate and altruistic (instead of greedy and hungry for ego gratification), ".pdf" would be banned.

consider the the original definition of "Adobe": a weak building material made from a mix of clay, straw and animal excrement, shaped into bricks and baked in the hot sun.

good luck!

---- Original message ----
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:39:56 -0600
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of "Susan Kallsen" <skallsen@gmail.com>)
Subject: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)
To: <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!

I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat


Eric Ngondi
 

hi Ann, the site is not connecting .... what can i do?

On 2/25/12, epierce@surewest.net <epierce@surewest.net> wrote:
Susan,

This is probably not the simple answer your want.

".pdf" technologies were originally designed long before "accessibility" was
a legal requirement. the whole point was to create a proprietary technology
for doing advanced graphics, *cross-platform*.

As such, any pretense of industry standards was jettisoned early on. In the
IT industry "proprietary" = "profitable".

In a sane world ruled by people who are compassionate and altruistic
(instead of greedy and hungry for ego gratification), ".pdf" would be
banned.

consider the the original definition of "Adobe": a weak building material
made from a mix of clay, straw and animal excrement, shaped into bricks and
baked in the hot sun.

good luck!

---- Original message ----
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:39:56 -0600
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of "Susan Kallsen"
<skallsen@gmail.com>)
Subject: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)
To: <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!

I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
--

-------------------------------------
ERIC N. NGONDI
+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk


epierce@...
 

did you understand the previous message that explained the various "cursors" that can be used in JAWS?

---- Original message ----
Date: Sat, 25 Feb 2012 11:50:43 +0300
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of Eric Ngondi <eric.ngondi@gmail.com>)
Subject: Re: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

hi Ann, the site is not connecting .... what can i do?
...


Ann Byrne
 

If you want to send it to me, I could run it through the OCR software I have, and send it back. Of course, if it isn't in english, my magic won't work. :;)

At 02:50 AM 2/25/2012, you wrote:
hi Ann, the site is not connecting .... what can i do?

On 2/25/12, epierce@surewest.net <epierce@surewest.net> wrote:
Susan,

This is probably not the simple answer your want.

".pdf" technologies were originally designed long before
"accessibility" was
a legal requirement. the whole point was to create a proprietary technology
for doing advanced graphics, *cross-platform*.

As such, any pretense of industry standards was jettisoned early on. In the
IT industry "proprietary" = "profitable".

In a sane world ruled by people who are compassionate and altruistic
(instead of greedy and hungry for ego gratification), ".pdf" would be
banned.

consider the the original definition of "Adobe": a weak building material
made from a mix of clay, straw and animal excrement, shaped into bricks and
baked in the hot sun.

good luck!

---- Original message ----
Date: Thu, 23 Feb 2012 13:39:56 -0600
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com (on behalf of "Susan Kallsen"
<skallsen@gmail.com>)
Subject: PDF in Firefox (or any browser)
To: <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>

I think this has a simple answer, but I can't figure it out!

I have created an accessible PDF form in Acrobat

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

--

-------------------------------------
ERIC N. NGONDI
+0720963825

ensambi@yahoo.co.uk

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com