Date   

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

There exists scads of research out there in regard to what makes text more (visually, not machine) readable.   It's pretty well known that serifed fonts are easier for humans to read than ones without serifs.

I thought it was actually kind of amusing to read the linked article passionately screaming that one space was enough and to find myself having a harder time reading it as a result.   Single spaces in proportional fonts are often very narrow, as they generally only need to be when separating words, but that makes them insufficient for separating sentences to my visual taste.

There are certain feuds that will never be settled.  This is one of them.  I'll continue using two spaces after a full stop before commencing my next sentence, thanks.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Mario
 

it's just one of those things one has to look out for when dealing with
URLs to what ever is being referenced.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Marty Hutchings [mailto:mhutchings152730@...]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 11:24 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Thanks brian. This one worked. What an issue. One more thing to bring
division among folks. Rediculas!

Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against
the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to
resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13


From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:58 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:54 PM, Marty Hutchings wrote:

Firefox said that this is a 404 page.
That's because the e-mail client broke the full link across two lines,
so when you're activating it's not got the full URL.

Here it is, naked:
https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-should-never-ever-do-it.html

and, in case this should be broken, too, as click through text: Space
Invaders: Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.

I happen to disagree, but hey. I still use two spaces after the end of
a sentence as I still find it easier to read text, even word processed
text, where that convention is followed.


Re: Screenreader Accessible Data Recovery Software

Marvin Hunkin <startrekvoyager@...>
 

okay, got a strange one, got a external samgsun 500 gb ssd. so what i did have a folder called Music, and then subfolders, called Albums, Singles, MarvinsMusic on my external drive, and so i extracted my MarvinsFiles on my c drive, then zipped up using 7 zip, then copied to my external drive. deleted the current MarvinsFiles, and then copied over my new Marvin folder to the external drive. now forgot to copy the folders i had lost. so if if i use recuba, will that allow me to get back my folders, and about 50 gb of music. do have some other music, but those folders only show up. any one had this same issue. if any one has got any suggestions, or do a create a restore point for my external drive. any one had this same issue and how to get back. marvin.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

fenderwal@...
 

My, this thread is evolving a life of its own. Now Net Bat is having species confusion--thought you were a bat, not a dog.
 
I have been tinkering with adding periods to the right side of relevant dictionary entries with modest success. My entry for the colon character in Eloq.sbl looks like this
 
symbol15=: 11110000 coal:..
 
Real quickly, I use shorthand names for the punctuation characters so they aren't multi-syllabic. I use coal for colon, peer for period, etcetera. Anyway, with those 2 period characters at the end of the entry for colon, the pause is suitably dramatic.
 
I'm still at it, and, and am open to suggestions that don't involve changing from a fender wall to, say, a gear shift knob. Makes me shiver just thinking about it!
 
I am puzzled as to why punctuation pauses with Eloquence that shipped with Window-Eyes--even the Eloquence in older versions like 4.X--could be altered by adding periods to dictionary entries, but Eloquence with JAWS is not phased in the least. I noticed that there is an Eloq.chr dictionary with no dictionary entries in it. Does anybody know how the two dictionaries interact with each other in JAWS?
 
thanks in advance for any shared inspirations,
Lou N.


From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mike B
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:47 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi Net bat,
 
Well, this old dog is much older than you old dog !  LOL  LOL 
 
I'm glad that when I started learning this computer operation crap the screenreading programs had gotten so much more sophisticated than the dinosaur days.  I wasn't being critical of you, just stating when capitalization is normally applied when someone isn't screaming at them for doing something incorrectly.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
I believe that everything happens for a reason. Usually, the reason is that somebody screwed up.
----- Original Message -----
From: netbat66
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

this old dog has been useing all lower case for 30 years.  ever since i was
ripped up one side and down the other for yelling at everyone.  back then the
artic vision scsi synthisizer didnt change pitch so i didn't know i left the
caps lock on when i composed a message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike B
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 8:39 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.


Hi Net bat,

Only capitalizing all the letters in a word is considered yelling or strong
emphasis on that particular word.  Capitalizing the first letter of a sentence,
names or wherever else capital letters are normally used is just plain correct
punctuation.  Now, how's that for improper English?!  LOL

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
I believe that everything happens for a reason. Usually, the reason is that
somebody screwed up.
----- Original Message -----
From: netbat66
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i stopped useing capital letters years ago because this is considered yelling
at the readers. grin

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Yes, that's what I just said. If a capital letter is not seen after a period,
it "assumes" that the period is present for some other purpose besides ending a
sentence, and thus does not pause.\
See, it's encouraging us to follow proper grammar/language rules. A good thing,
surely! 8grins*


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of netbat66
Sent: August 19, 2019 1:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can
get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma
instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the
sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no
pause at all.  I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one
there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope.   I’ll play with the
recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some
synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from
Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period
and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well
hidden and protected ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar.
Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what
you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries,
and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work
with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It
is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing
or using any of this information If you received this communication in error,
please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic
personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose
such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which
you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from
Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in
the SUBJECT line.












 




moderated Re: updates

 

Every software company messes up from time to time, for the most part Jaws just as NVDA is probably doing a lot of work just to keep up with changes  from Microsoft since they seem to change things which impact screenreaders on a pretty regular bases these days. I am not sure why you would make the statement about being lucky Vispero isn’t charging for these bug fixes, they never have and there is no indication they ever will. There really hasn’t been a change  in how Vispero charges for their updates for a lot of years and even then I don’t recall the last time the price for the SMA you have to buy every two years went up. I guess the introduction in the US of the subscription model counts as a change although at this point it is more of an alternative way of being able to use Jaws since existing users can still continue to pay their $5 a month which is what the $120 for a Jaws Home SMA boils down to.

I use an application for my point of sale which is not getting any feature updates or bug fixes any more, yet I pay $347 US every single year so I can continue to use it, if I didn’t it would no longer work when it expires every January 31, but I need it so I have no choice. I really wonder why some blind people think everything needs to be free.

 

Regards,

Sieghard

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Mladek
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 4:45 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

That sure was a politically correct way to say JAWS/Freedom Scientific or whomever they call themselves now messed up and had to put out a “fix”. Feel blessed they have not begun charging for their said fixes yet.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jason White via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:42 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io; jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Every item in the release notes accompanying each update serves as a reason for releasing the update.

 

From: <main@jfw.groups.io> on behalf of "T. Civitello" <tcivi31@...>
Reply-To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 07:28
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Mike B
 


Hi Net bat,
 
Well, this old dog is much older than you old dog !  LOL  LOL 
 
I'm glad that when I started learning this computer operation crap the screenreading programs had gotten so much more sophisticated than the dinosaur days.  I wasn't being critical of you, just stating when capitalization is normally applied when someone isn't screaming at them for doing something incorrectly.

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
I believe that everything happens for a reason. Usually, the reason is that somebody screwed up.

----- Original Message -----
From: netbat66
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:28 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

this old dog has been useing all lower case for 30 years.  ever since i was
ripped up one side and down the other for yelling at everyone.  back then the
artic vision scsi synthisizer didnt change pitch so i didn't know i left the
caps lock on when i composed a message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike B
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 8:39 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.


Hi Net bat,

Only capitalizing all the letters in a word is considered yelling or strong
emphasis on that particular word.  Capitalizing the first letter of a sentence,
names or wherever else capital letters are normally used is just plain correct
punctuation.  Now, how's that for improper English?!  LOL

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
I believe that everything happens for a reason. Usually, the reason is that
somebody screwed up.
----- Original Message -----
From: netbat66
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i stopped useing capital letters years ago because this is considered yelling
at the readers. grin

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Yes, that's what I just said. If a capital letter is not seen after a period,
it "assumes" that the period is present for some other purpose besides ending a
sentence, and thus does not pause.\
See, it's encouraging us to follow proper grammar/language rules. A good thing,
surely! 8grins*


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of netbat66
Sent: August 19, 2019 1:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can
get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma
instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the
sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no
pause at all.  I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one
there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope.   I’ll play with the
recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some
synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from
Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period
and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well
hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar.
Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what
you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries,
and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work
with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It
is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing
or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error,
please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic
personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose
such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which
you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from
Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in
the SUBJECT line.












 




moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

netbat66
 

this old dog has been useing all lower case for 30 years. ever since i was ripped up one side and down the other for yelling at everyone. back then the artic vision scsi synthisizer didnt change pitch so i didn't know i left the caps lock on when i composed a message.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mike B
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 8:39 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.


Hi Net bat,

Only capitalizing all the letters in a word is considered yelling or strong emphasis on that particular word. Capitalizing the first letter of a sentence, names or wherever else capital letters are normally used is just plain correct punctuation. Now, how's that for improper English?! LOL

Take care. Mike. Sent from my iBarstool. Go dodgers!
I believe that everything happens for a reason. Usually, the reason is that somebody screwed up.
----- Original Message -----
From: netbat66
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i stopped useing capital letters years ago because this is considered yelling
at the readers. grin

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Yes, that's what I just said. If a capital letter is not seen after a period,
it "assumes" that the period is present for some other purpose besides ending a
sentence, and thus does not pause.\
See, it's encouraging us to follow proper grammar/language rules. A good thing,
surely! 8grins*


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of netbat66
Sent: August 19, 2019 1:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can
get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma
instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the
sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no
pause at all. I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one
there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope. I’ll play with the
recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some
synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from
Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period
and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well
hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar.
Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what
you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries,
and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work
with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It
is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing
or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error,
please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic
personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose
such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which
you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from
Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in
the SUBJECT line.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Mike B
 


Hi Net bat,
 
Only capitalizing all the letters in a word is considered yelling or strong emphasis on that particular word.  Capitalizing the first letter of a sentence, names or wherever else capital letters are normally used is just plain correct punctuation.  Now, how's that for improper English?!  LOL 

Take care.  Mike.  Sent from my iBarstool.  Go dodgers!
I believe that everything happens for a reason. Usually, the reason is that somebody screwed up.

----- Original Message -----
From: netbat66
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:30 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i stopped useing capital letters years ago because this is considered yelling
at the readers. grin

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Yes, that's what I just said. If a capital letter is not seen after a period,
it "assumes" that the period is present for some other purpose besides ending a
sentence, and thus does not pause.\
See, it's encouraging us to follow proper grammar/language rules. A good thing,
surely! 8grins*


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of netbat66
Sent: August 19, 2019 1:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can
get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma
instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the
sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no
pause at all.  I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one
there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope.   I’ll play with the
recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some
synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from
Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period
and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well
hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar.
Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what
you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries,
and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work
with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It
is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing
or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error,
please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic
personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose
such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which
you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from
Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in
the SUBJECT line.












moderated One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

Richard Turner
 

Here is the text of an article that I’d encourage those interested to read to the end.

 

I’ll put the link to this article at the end as well.

 

One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong.

By  Avi Selk

Avi Selk

Reporter

May 4, 2018

 

In the beginning, the rules of the space bar were simple.  Two spaces after each period.  Every time.  Easy.

 

That made sense in the age of the typewriter. Letters of uniform width looked cramped without extra space after the period. Typists learned not to do it.

 

But then, at the end of the 20th century, the typewriter gave way to the word processor, and the computer,  and modern variable-width fonts.  And the world divided.

 

Some insisted on keeping the two-space rule.  They couldn't get used to seeing just one space after a period.  It simply looked wrong.

 

Some said this was blasphemy. The designers of modern fonts had built the perfect amount of spacing, they said. Anything more than a single space between sentences was too much.

 

And so the rules of typography fell into chaos. “Typing two spaces after a period is totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong,” Farhad Manjoo wrote in Slate in 2011.  “You can have my double space when you pry it from my cold, dead hands,” Megan McArdle wrote in the Atlantic the same year.  (And yes, she double-spaced it.)

 

This schism has actually existed throughout most of typed history, the writer and type enthusiast James Felici once observed (in a single-spaced essay).

 

The rules of spacing have been wildly inconsistent going back to the invention of the printing press. The original printing of the U.S. Declaration of Independence used extra long spaces between sentences. John Baskerville's 1763 Bible used a single space. WhoevenknowswhateffectPietroBembowasgoingforhere.Single spaces. Double spaces.  Em spaces.   Trends went back and forth between continents and eras for hundreds of years, Felici wrote.It's not a good look.

 

And that's just English. Somewrittenlanguageshavenospacesatall and o thers re quire a space be tween ev e ry syl la ble.

 

Ob viously, thereneed to be standards. Unless    you're doing avant - garde po e try, or    something , you  can'tjustspacew ords ho w e v   e    r   y      o        u            want.     That would be insanity. Or at least,

obnoxious.

 

Enter three psychology researchers from Skidmore College, who decided it's time for modern science to sort this out once and for all.

 

“Professionals and amateurs in a variety of fields have passionately argued for either one or two spaces following this punctuation mark,” they wrote in a paper published last week in the journal Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics.

 

They cite dozens of theories and previous research, arguing for one space or two.  A 2005 study that found two spaces reduced lateral interference in the eye and helped reading.  A 2015 study that found the opposite.  A 1998 experiment that suggested it didn't matter.

 

“However,” they wrote, “to date, there has been no direct empirical evidence in support of these claims, nor in favor of the one-space convention.”

 

So the researchers,  Rebecca L. Johnson,  Becky Bui  and Lindsay L. Schmitt,  rounded up 60 students and some eye-tracking equipment,  and set out to heal the divide.

 

First, they put the students in front of computers and dictated a short paragraph, to see how many spaces they naturally used. Turns out, 21 of the 60 were “two-spacers,” and the rest typed with close-spaced sentences that would have horrified the Founding Fathers.

 

The researchers then clamped each student's head into place, and used an Eyelink 1000 to record where they looked as they silently read 20 paragraphs. The paragraphs were written in various styles: one-spaced, two-spaced,  and strange combinations like two spaces after commas,  but only one after periods.  And vice versa, too.

 

And the verdict was: two spaces after the period is better.  It makes reading slightly easier.  Congratulations, Yale University professor Nicholas A. Christakis.  Sorry, Lifehacker.

 

               Hurray! Science vindicates my longstanding practice, learned at age 12, of using TWO SPACES after periods in text. NOT ONE SPACE. Text is easier to read that way. Of course, on twitter, I use one space, given 280 characters. https://t.co/4xI6sVbF88 Will arm-wrestle @Neuro_Skeptic pic.twitter.com/XpEr4KFR4x

 

               — Nicholas A. Christakis (@NAChristakis) April 28, 2018

Actually, Lifehacker's one-space purist Nick Douglas pointed out some important caveats to the study's conclusion.

 

Most notably, the test subjects read paragraphs in Courier New, a fixed-width font similar to the old typewriters, and rarely used on modern computers.

 

Johnson, one of the authors, told Douglas that the fixed-width font was standard for eye-tracking tests, and the benefits of two-spacing should carry over to any modern font.

 

Douglas found more solace in the fact that the benefits of two-spacing, as described in the study, appear to be very minor.

 

Reading speed only improved marginally, the paper found, and only for the 21 “two-spacers,” who naturally typed with two spaces between sentences.  The majority of one-spacers, on the other hand, read at pretty much the same speed either way.  And reading comprehension was unaffected for everyone, regardless of how many spaces followed a period.

 

The major reason to use two spaces, the researchers wrote, was to make the reading process smoother, not faster.  Everyone tended to spend fewer milliseconds staring at periods when a little extra blank space followed it.

 

(Putting two spaces after a comma,  if you're wondering,  slowed down reading speed,  so don't do that.)

 

The study's authors concluded that two-spacers in the digital age actually have science on their side, and more research should be done to “investigate why reading is facilitated when periods are followed by two spaces.”

 

But no sooner did the paper publish than the researchers discovered that science doesn't necessarily govern matters of the space bar.

 

Johnson told Lifehacker that she and her co-authors submitted the paper with two spaces after each period — as was proper. And the journal deleted all the extra spaces anyway.

 

Note: An earlier version of this story published incorrectly because, seriously, putting two spaces in the headline broke the web code.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/05/04/one-space-between-each-sentence-they-said-science-just-proved-them-wrong-2/

 

 

Richard

 

🖖 Live long and prosper


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Marty Hutchings
 

Thanks brian.  This one worked.  What an issue.  One more thing to bring division among folks.  Rediculas!
 
Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
 

Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.
 
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:54 PM, Marty Hutchings wrote:
Firefox said that this is a 404 page.
That's because the e-mail client broke the full link across two lines, so when you're activating it's not got the full URL.

Here it is, naked:  https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-should-never-ever-do-it.html

and, in case this should be broken, too, as click through text:  Space Invaders:  Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.

I happen to disagree, but hey.  I still use two spaces after the end of a sentence as I still find it easier to read text, even word processed text, where that convention is followed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:54 PM, Marty Hutchings wrote:
Firefox said that this is a 404 page.
That's because the e-mail client broke the full link across two lines, so when you're activating it's not got the full URL.

Here it is, naked:  https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-should-never-ever-do-it.html

and, in case this should be broken, too, as click through text:  Space Invaders:  Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.

I happen to disagree, but hey.  I still use two spaces after the end of a sentence as I still find it easier to read text, even word processed text, where that convention is followed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Marty Hutchings
 

Firefox said that this is a 404 page.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 4:42 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi.

At the risk of going a bit off-topic for the list -- how long ago was your
keyboarding class?
The reason people used to put two spaces after periods had to do with manual
typewriters and the "monospace" font style they used. Every character took
up exactly the same amount of horizontal space on a piece of paper, so as a
result, it could sometimes be difficult to tell there was a space at all at
the end of some sentences unless the typist used two of them. This has
changed since the advent of electric typewriters, and, indeed, computers,
with their myriad numbers of proportional font styles. In fact though, the
so-called two space rule you would have learned in keyboarding class was
introduced *only* because of the typewriter. You would not have seen a
professionally typeset book done this way.

The tone is maybe a little bit strident, but this article from Slate
explains the history of it all pretty well.
https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-shoul
d-never-ever-do-it.html


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Hutchings
Sent: August 19, 2019 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a
period at the end of each sentence. I notice too many times lately in
things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period. this could
make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the
spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist
in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...<mailto:fenderwal@...>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

netbat66
 

i stopped useing capital letters years ago because this is considered yelling at the readers. grin

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Yes, that's what I just said. If a capital letter is not seen after a period, it "assumes" that the period is present for some other purpose besides ending a sentence, and thus does not pause.\
See, it's encouraging us to follow proper grammar/language rules. A good thing, surely! 8grins*


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of netbat66
Sent: August 19, 2019 1:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no
pause at all. I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one
there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope. I’ll play with the
recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some
synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from
Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period
and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well
hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar.
Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what
you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries,
and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work
with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It
is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing
or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error,
please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic
personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose
such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which
you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from
Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in
the SUBJECT line.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

Hi.

At the risk of going a bit off-topic for the list -- how long ago was your
keyboarding class?
The reason people used to put two spaces after periods had to do with manual
typewriters and the "monospace" font style they used. Every character took
up exactly the same amount of horizontal space on a piece of paper, so as a
result, it could sometimes be difficult to tell there was a space at all at
the end of some sentences unless the typist used two of them. This has
changed since the advent of electric typewriters, and, indeed, computers,
with their myriad numbers of proportional font styles. In fact though, the
so-called two space rule you would have learned in keyboarding class was
introduced *only* because of the typewriter. You would not have seen a
professionally typeset book done this way.

The tone is maybe a little bit strident, but this article from Slate
explains the history of it all pretty well.
https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-shoul
d-never-ever-do-it.html

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Hutchings
Sent: August 19, 2019 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a
period at the end of each sentence. I notice too many times lately in
things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period. this could
make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the
spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist
in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...<mailto:fenderwal@...>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: unselecting all desktop items

David Moore
 

Hello to deselect all icons on your desktop, press Windows key + m to go to your desktop. Then, Pratt hold down the Ctrl key and press the spacebar to deselect the item you are on. Then, press the applications key or shift + f10 and go down to where you can organize your desktop items. Have a great day David Moore


On Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 8:03 AM Alan Robbins <arobbin2@... wrote:

What is the Jaws key stroke to unselect everything on the desktop so I can select to alphabetize the icons?

 

Thanks,

Al           


moderated Re: updates

Panagiotis Antonopoulos
 

I too would like tu upload this step by vispero. If something needs change/fixing, I would not mind having an update each day.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Takis

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Larry Wayland
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Because Micro Soft updates a lot, and no software package is perfect. It is good they do update a lot.  It is for your benefit.

Larry

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of T. Civitello
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 6:29 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

I don’t believe I have ever heard a synth take the number of spaces into account in this way. The reason for this is that some people still have the habit of leaving two spaces after a period. I don’t think this was ever the standard everywhere, but certainly in for example letter writing and other types of documents. I believe in printed books, a single space has been the standard for a really long time.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Turner
Sent: August 19, 2019 4:21 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

Good point Marty. That was the standard. But, like many things, standards have slipped. 

But, the synthesizers may have been programmed under the old standard.

It would be worth someone who is having these issues to write a few sentences with each sentence separated by one space and then some separated with two spaces and see if they have more natural pauses when two spaces separate them.

 

Richard

 

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 

 



On Aug 19, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Marty Hutchings <mhutchings152730@...> wrote:

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a period at the end of each sentence.  I notice too many times lately in things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period.  this could make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message----- From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all.  I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
  I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...<mailto:fenderwal@...>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.











moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Richard Turner
 

Good point Marty. That was the standard. But, like many things, standards have slipped. 
But, the synthesizers may have been programmed under the old standard.
It would be worth someone who is having these issues to write a few sentences with each sentence separated by one space and then some separated with two spaces and see if they have more natural pauses when two spaces separate them.


Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 


On Aug 19, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Marty Hutchings <mhutchings152730@...> wrote:

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a period at the end of each sentence.  I notice too many times lately in things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period.  this could make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message----- From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all.  I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
  I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...<mailto:fenderwal@...>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.












moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Marty Hutchings
 

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a period at the end of each sentence. I notice too many times lately in things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period. this could make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...<mailto:fenderwal@...>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: updates

Lino Morales
 

I'm just glad its only once a month sometimes 2 like this month.

On 8/19/2019 2:40 PM, Larry Wayland wrote:

Because Micro Soft updates a lot, and no software package is perfect. It is good they do update a lot.  It is for your benefit.

Larry

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of T. Civitello
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 6:29 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?