No worries Pastor.  thank you for replying.  Happy to be here.  Georgi

Sorry for the sloppy post.

Pastor Gil

Sorry for the sloppy post.

Pastor Gil

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 20, 2019 10:34 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

There exists scads of research out there in regard to what makes text more (visually, not machine) readable.   It's pretty well known that serifed fonts are easier for humans to read than ones without serifs.

I thought it was actually kind of amusing to read the linked article passionately screaming that one space was enough and to find myself having a harder time reading it as a result.   Single spaces in proportional fonts are often very narrow, as they generally only need to be when separating words, but that makes them insufficient for separating sentences to my visual taste.

There are certain feuds that will never be settled.  This is one of them.  I'll continue using two spaces after a full stop before commencing my next sentence, thanks.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

Hi. I would actually argue that, for Braille users, how many spaces separate one sentence from another does matter since nearly all hardcopy Braille adds just one space separating two sentences. This is what I've been used to even back in the day when I was taught to add two print spaces during my sixth grade typing class when we used a manual typewriter. If I was presented with a book or a document on a Braille display with two spaces following each sentence it would feel very jarring to me and would make the reading experience less than satisfactory.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified: 2019 WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 8/20/2019 3:31 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM, Bill Tessore wrote:

Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?

Indeed.  Hence the reason I made clear that I was referring to human reading via the sensory modality of vision.

Machine reading is an entirely different thing, and since any white space after a period indicates it's a full stop that's all a "reading machine" needs in most cases to know what's what.  When you're reading "by eye" the size of the gap between sentences can be just as important as the presence of the punctuation mark itself.

The sensory modality being used, and how its been trained, is critical.  I have tried to explain to those who have been reading Braille as the only thing they've ever read that picking the skill up in adulthood by someone who's been sighted for most of their life is just not going to happen.   Our tactile modality has not ever been trained for the kind of discrimination necessary for fluent dot identification on a Braille page, and it's hellishly difficult to acquire if one can even acquire it at all.

How our individual sensory palettes are trained from the moment we start using them, and whether we ever had and lost any of them, makes a huge difference in how we actually can and do use them.   My dear friend used to do a sort of "parlor trick" as far as those of us who are sighted were concerned when we were driving her around our small town.  She could (and would) very often tell you what corner you were on when you stopped at a stop light no matter how it was that you came to be at that spot.  She had trained herself to listen to the characteristic sounds of those intersections and the businesses that surrounded them.   It floored those of us who could see, simply because we cannot do that because we never needed to develop the skill - looking around is faster and easier.   Were I to lose my vision tomorrow I doubt that I could ever cultivate that level of skill, reliably, because of the years of careful training (and I don't mean formal training) it takes to form that kind of auditory discrimination skill for that sort of thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

I mean… who wants to go back to the days where there was only one yearly release of Jaws and if there was some sort of bug in the update or if something got broken in an application or whatever, then good luck working around it until October/November for the next update.

These periodic releases have been hugely helpful with addressing stuff and fixing them faster.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 10:32 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Every software company messes up from time to time, for the most part Jaws just as NVDA is probably doing a lot of work just to keep up with changes  from Microsoft since they seem to change things which impact screenreaders on a pretty regular bases these days. I am not sure why you would make the statement about being lucky Vispero isn’t charging for these bug fixes, they never have and there is no indication they ever will. There really hasn’t been a change  in how Vispero charges for their updates for a lot of years and even then I don’t recall the last time the price for the SMA you have to buy every two years went up. I guess the introduction in the US of the subscription model counts as a change although at this point it is more of an alternative way of being able to use Jaws since existing users can still continue to pay their $5 a month which is what the $120 for a Jaws Home SMA boils down to.

I use an application for my point of sale which is not getting any feature updates or bug fixes any more, yet I pay $347 US every single year so I can continue to use it, if I didn’t it would no longer work when it expires every January 31, but I need it so I have no choice. I really wonder why some blind people think everything needs to be free.

 

Regards,

Sieghard

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Mladek
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 4:45 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

That sure was a politically correct way to say JAWS/Freedom Scientific or whomever they call themselves now messed up and had to put out a “fix”. Feel blessed they have not begun charging for their said fixes yet.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jason White via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:42 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io; jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Every item in the release notes accompanying each update serves as a reason for releasing the update.

 

From: <main@jfw.groups.io> on behalf of "T. Civitello" <tcivi31@...>
Reply-To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 07:28
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 20, 2019 3:31 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM, Bill Tessore wrote:

Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?

Indeed.  Hence the reason I made clear that I was referring to human reading via the sensory modality of vision.

Machine reading is an entirely different thing, and since any white space after a period indicates it's a full stop that's all a "reading machine" needs in most cases to know what's what.  When you're reading "by eye" the size of the gap between sentences can be just as important as the presence of the punctuation mark itself.

The sensory modality being used, and how its been trained, is critical.  I have tried to explain to those who have been reading Braille as the only thing they've ever read that picking the skill up in adulthood by someone who's been sighted for most of their life is just not going to happen.   Our tactile modality has not ever been trained for the kind of discrimination necessary for fluent dot identification on a Braille page, and it's hellishly difficult to acquire if one can even acquire it at all.

How our individual sensory palettes are trained from the moment we start using them, and whether we ever had and lost any of them, makes a huge difference in how we actually can and do use them.   My dear friend used to do a sort of "parlor trick" as far as those of us who are sighted were concerned when we were driving her around our small town.  She could (and would) very often tell you what corner you were on when you stopped at a stop light no matter how it was that you came to be at that spot.  She had trained herself to listen to the characteristic sounds of those intersections and the businesses that surrounded them.   It floored those of us who could see, simply because we cannot do that because we never needed to develop the skill - looking around is faster and easier.   Were I to lose my vision tomorrow I doubt that I could ever cultivate that level of skill, reliably, because of the years of careful training (and I don't mean formal training) it takes to form that kind of auditory discrimination skill for that sort of thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM, Bill Tessore wrote:

Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?

Indeed.  Hence the reason I made clear that I was referring to human reading via the sensory modality of vision.

Machine reading is an entirely different thing, and since any white space after a period indicates it's a full stop that's all a "reading machine" needs in most cases to know what's what.  When you're reading "by eye" the size of the gap between sentences can be just as important as the presence of the punctuation mark itself.

The sensory modality being used, and how its been trained, is critical.  I have tried to explain to those who have been reading Braille as the only thing they've ever read that picking the skill up in adulthood by someone who's been sighted for most of their life is just not going to happen.   Our tactile modality has not ever been trained for the kind of discrimination necessary for fluent dot identification on a Braille page, and it's hellishly difficult to acquire if one can even acquire it at all.

How our individual sensory palettes are trained from the moment we start using them, and whether we ever had and lost any of them, makes a huge difference in how we actually can and do use them.   My dear friend used to do a sort of "parlor trick" as far as those of us who are sighted were concerned when we were driving her around our small town.  She could (and would) very often tell you what corner you were on when you stopped at a stop light no matter how it was that you came to be at that spot.  She had trained herself to listen to the characteristic sounds of those intersections and the businesses that surrounded them.   It floored those of us who could see, simply because we cannot do that because we never needed to develop the skill - looking around is faster and easier.   Were I to lose my vision tomorrow I doubt that I could ever cultivate that level of skill, reliably, because of the years of careful training (and I don't mean formal training) it takes to form that kind of auditory discrimination skill for that sort of thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

There exists scads of research out there in regard to what makes text more (visually, not machine) readable.   It's pretty well known that serifed fonts are easier for humans to read than ones without serifs.

I thought it was actually kind of amusing to read the linked article passionately screaming that one space was enough and to find myself having a harder time reading it as a result.   Single spaces in proportional fonts are often very narrow, as they generally only need to be when separating words, but that makes them insufficient for separating sentences to my visual taste.

There are certain feuds that will never be settled.  This is one of them.  I'll continue using two spaces after a full stop before commencing my next sentence, thanks.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

Every software company messes up from time to time, for the most part Jaws just as NVDA is probably doing a lot of work just to keep up with changes  from Microsoft since they seem to change things which impact screenreaders on a pretty regular bases these days. I am not sure why you would make the statement about being lucky Vispero isn’t charging for these bug fixes, they never have and there is no indication they ever will. There really hasn’t been a change  in how Vispero charges for their updates for a lot of years and even then I don’t recall the last time the price for the SMA you have to buy every two years went up. I guess the introduction in the US of the subscription model counts as a change although at this point it is more of an alternative way of being able to use Jaws since existing users can still continue to pay their $5 a month which is what the $120 for a Jaws Home SMA boils down to.

I use an application for my point of sale which is not getting any feature updates or bug fixes any more, yet I pay $347 US every single year so I can continue to use it, if I didn’t it would no longer work when it expires every January 31, but I need it so I have no choice. I really wonder why some blind people think everything needs to be free.

Regards,

Sieghard

That sure was a politically correct way to say JAWS/Freedom Scientific or whomever they call themselves now messed up and had to put out a “fix”. Feel blessed they have not begun charging for their said fixes yet.

Every item in the release notes accompanying each update serves as a reason for releasing the update.