Date   
moderated Re: Hello

Pastor Gil Pries
 

Hi Georgi,

Thank you for replying.

 

Pastor Gil

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Georgie Mac
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 7:13 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Hello

 

No worries Pastor.  thank you for replying.  Happy to be here.  Georgi

On 8/20/2019 10:09 PM, Pastor Gil Pries wrote:

Sorry for the sloppy post.

Pastor Gil

moderated Re: Hello

Georgie Mac
 

No worries Pastor.  thank you for replying.  Happy to be here.  Georgi

On 8/20/2019 10:09 PM, Pastor Gil Pries wrote:

Sorry for the sloppy post.

Pastor Gil

moderated Hello

Pastor Gil Pries
 

Sorry for the sloppy post.

Pastor Gil

moderated Hello

Pastor Gil Pries
 

This is Pastor Gil Pries.

I am back after after an absence of several months.

 

Glad to be back.

 

Pastor Gil

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 05:51 PM, JM Casey wrote:
But when you read a book in print, you don’t (usually) see two spaces after a period, correct?
That depends, at least from a "how it looks" perspective, on the type used.  It certainly appears that either some use a 2-space convention or the type itself has a somewhat wider space.

When it comes to proportional fonts some "compress" a space far more than others do, but all compress it in comparison to "wide" letters like M and W, for instance.

I wish there were a way to convey this in a truly meaningful way for those that cannot see.   The differences between fonts, in many respects, that are all proportional fonts can be radical.   For those here who may have once been able to see, think about the difference between how a True Type font such as Vivaldi or Palace Script look when compared with Times New Roman.   Even though both can be read with relative ease, when the content is short, try to imagine reading an entire book in one of the first two script fonts as opposed to Times New Roman.  I'd be exhausted by the end of the first page, because letter form matters, and matters a lot, when ease of visual scanning and processing are involved.   There are an awful lot of fonts that were developed to be "visually interesting" for things like posters, invitations, and the like but are not ever intended to be used for article or book length material for publication and reading by the masses.   Any of these being machine read, or converted for Braille displays, are exactly the same in those contexts.   There's a gulf that cannot be fully bridged due to sensory modalities at play and the fact that, in the case of Braille, the whole idea of font as I experience it is absent.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated test

cecropia64
 

just testing

moderated Re: updates--improvements not mentioned

Ann Byrne
 

Cudos to FS for a couple of improvements I haven't seen documented:

1. Allowing use of the ribbon in huuuuuuuuge Access database files. To extract reports at work from our 16000 item Access database, I for years had to use either NVDA or narrator, as JAWS would freeze up. Today I can use the ribbon to export small reports from this humongous database without switching screen readers. Yea!

2. In Excel with JAWS 2018 if I select a series of numbers I can read from the status bar "average, (a number), count (the number), and sum" (a number, the total). With earlier versions of JAWS 2019 only 'average' was spoken. Now all three items are available. I use this function often to total student hours. Yea!!!

moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

Yeah, alright, sorry about the broken link. I just copied it straight from the address bar.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 20, 2019 9:40 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

it's just one of those things one has to look out for when dealing with URLs to what ever is being referenced.


-------- Original Message --------
From: Marty Hutchings [mailto:mhutchings152730@...]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 11:24 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Thanks brian. This one worked. What an issue. One more thing to bring
division among folks. Rediculas!

Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against
the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to
resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13


From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:58 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:54 PM, Marty Hutchings wrote:

Firefox said that this is a 404 page.
That's because the e-mail client broke the full link across two lines,
so when you're activating it's not got the full URL.

Here it is, naked:
https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-should-never-ever-do-it.html

and, in case this should be broken, too, as click through text: Space
Invaders: Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.

I happen to disagree, but hey. I still use two spaces after the end of
a sentence as I still find it easier to read text, even word processed
text, where that convention is followed.

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

Hah..the tone was indeed a little on the strident side. It’s not something I care enough about to get worked up over. I vaguely remember either my father or some grade-school teacher trying to insist on the two spaces. But as I started to read more, I literally was only seeing this regularly from people used to using typewriters, or at least that’s how it seemed.

Actually now that I use braille output more than speech, I find myself surprised at how many people on these lists for instance use the two spaces.

It’s ok of course – just an observation.

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 20, 2019 10:34 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

There exists scads of research out there in regard to what makes text more (visually, not machine) readable.   It's pretty well known that serifed fonts are easier for humans to read than ones without serifs.

I thought it was actually kind of amusing to read the linked article passionately screaming that one space was enough and to find myself having a harder time reading it as a result.   Single spaces in proportional fonts are often very narrow, as they generally only need to be when separating words, but that makes them insufficient for separating sentences to my visual taste.

There are certain feuds that will never be settled.  This is one of them.  I'll continue using two spaces after a full stop before commencing my next sentence, thanks.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

Bill Tessore
 

You’re absolutely right David Goldfield. My point was that in literary braille, with the exception of the beginning of a new paragraph  (in paragraph mode versus block Mode), the rules indicate there is only one space following each sentence.

Shalom,

Bill Tessore




On Aug 20, 2019, at 2:40 PM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Hi. I would actually argue that, for Braille users, how many spaces separate one sentence from another does matter since nearly all hardcopy Braille adds just one space separating two sentences. This is what I've been used to even back in the day when I was taught to add two print spaces during my sixth grade typing class when we used a manual typewriter. If I was presented with a book or a document on a Braille display with two spaces following each sentence it would feel very jarring to me and would make the reading experience less than satisfactory.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified: 2019 WWW.David-Goldfield.Com
On 8/20/2019 3:31 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM, Bill Tessore wrote:
Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?
Indeed.  Hence the reason I made clear that I was referring to human reading via the sensory modality of vision.

Machine reading is an entirely different thing, and since any white space after a period indicates it's a full stop that's all a "reading machine" needs in most cases to know what's what.  When you're reading "by eye" the size of the gap between sentences can be just as important as the presence of the punctuation mark itself.

The sensory modality being used, and how its been trained, is critical.  I have tried to explain to those who have been reading Braille as the only thing they've ever read that picking the skill up in adulthood by someone who's been sighted for most of their life is just not going to happen.   Our tactile modality has not ever been trained for the kind of discrimination necessary for fluent dot identification on a Braille page, and it's hellishly difficult to acquire if one can even acquire it at all.

How our individual sensory palettes are trained from the moment we start using them, and whether we ever had and lost any of them, makes a huge difference in how we actually can and do use them.   My dear friend used to do a sort of "parlor trick" as far as those of us who are sighted were concerned when we were driving her around our small town.  She could (and would) very often tell you what corner you were on when you stopped at a stop light no matter how it was that you came to be at that spot.  She had trained herself to listen to the characteristic sounds of those intersections and the businesses that surrounded them.   It floored those of us who could see, simply because we cannot do that because we never needed to develop the skill - looking around is faster and easier.   Were I to lose my vision tomorrow I doubt that I could ever cultivate that level of skill, reliably, because of the years of careful training (and I don't mean formal training) it takes to form that kind of auditory discrimination skill for that sort of thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: updates

David Goldfield
 

I agree with this. Not to mention that the size of JAWS updates has decreased over the years, making the process of updating even faster. Since updates are designed to add features, fix bugs or both I'm perfectly fine with Vispero adopting a regular cadence for releasing updates. Users can always decline to install them until a more convenient time and it would only benefit their users.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified: 2019 WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 8/20/2019 12:12 PM, Cristóbal wrote:

I mean… who wants to go back to the days where there was only one yearly release of Jaws and if there was some sort of bug in the update or if something got broken in an application or whatever, then good luck working around it until October/November for the next update.

These periodic releases have been hugely helpful with addressing stuff and fixing them faster.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 10:32 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Every software company messes up from time to time, for the most part Jaws just as NVDA is probably doing a lot of work just to keep up with changes  from Microsoft since they seem to change things which impact screenreaders on a pretty regular bases these days. I am not sure why you would make the statement about being lucky Vispero isn’t charging for these bug fixes, they never have and there is no indication they ever will. There really hasn’t been a change  in how Vispero charges for their updates for a lot of years and even then I don’t recall the last time the price for the SMA you have to buy every two years went up. I guess the introduction in the US of the subscription model counts as a change although at this point it is more of an alternative way of being able to use Jaws since existing users can still continue to pay their $5 a month which is what the $120 for a Jaws Home SMA boils down to.

I use an application for my point of sale which is not getting any feature updates or bug fixes any more, yet I pay $347 US every single year so I can continue to use it, if I didn’t it would no longer work when it expires every January 31, but I need it so I have no choice. I really wonder why some blind people think everything needs to be free.

 

Regards,

Sieghard

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Mladek
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 4:45 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

That sure was a politically correct way to say JAWS/Freedom Scientific or whomever they call themselves now messed up and had to put out a “fix”. Feel blessed they have not begun charging for their said fixes yet.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jason White via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:42 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io; jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Every item in the release notes accompanying each update serves as a reason for releasing the update.

 

From: <main@jfw.groups.io> on behalf of "T. Civitello" <tcivi31@...>
Reply-To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 07:28
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

Interesting. Can’t disagree with a ny of that. J

But when you read a book in print, you don’t (usually) see two spaces after a period, correct? My understanding is that once typography was more-or-less standardised in the early 20th century, that was the norm. Typewriters, of course, are something completely different.

 

BTW, I use a braille display and I can see the “extra” spaces (lol sorry, Brian) after your periods. I also noted all the extra spaces liberally sprinkled throughout that funny article Richard posted…clever.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 20, 2019 3:31 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM, Bill Tessore wrote:

Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?

Indeed.  Hence the reason I made clear that I was referring to human reading via the sensory modality of vision.

Machine reading is an entirely different thing, and since any white space after a period indicates it's a full stop that's all a "reading machine" needs in most cases to know what's what.  When you're reading "by eye" the size of the gap between sentences can be just as important as the presence of the punctuation mark itself.

The sensory modality being used, and how its been trained, is critical.  I have tried to explain to those who have been reading Braille as the only thing they've ever read that picking the skill up in adulthood by someone who's been sighted for most of their life is just not going to happen.   Our tactile modality has not ever been trained for the kind of discrimination necessary for fluent dot identification on a Braille page, and it's hellishly difficult to acquire if one can even acquire it at all.

How our individual sensory palettes are trained from the moment we start using them, and whether we ever had and lost any of them, makes a huge difference in how we actually can and do use them.   My dear friend used to do a sort of "parlor trick" as far as those of us who are sighted were concerned when we were driving her around our small town.  She could (and would) very often tell you what corner you were on when you stopped at a stop light no matter how it was that you came to be at that spot.  She had trained herself to listen to the characteristic sounds of those intersections and the businesses that surrounded them.   It floored those of us who could see, simply because we cannot do that because we never needed to develop the skill - looking around is faster and easier.   Were I to lose my vision tomorrow I doubt that I could ever cultivate that level of skill, reliably, because of the years of careful training (and I don't mean formal training) it takes to form that kind of auditory discrimination skill for that sort of thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

David Goldfield
 

Hi. I would actually argue that, for Braille users, how many spaces separate one sentence from another does matter since nearly all hardcopy Braille adds just one space separating two sentences. This is what I've been used to even back in the day when I was taught to add two print spaces during my sixth grade typing class when we used a manual typewriter. If I was presented with a book or a document on a Braille display with two spaces following each sentence it would feel very jarring to me and would make the reading experience less than satisfactory.

David Goldfield, Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified: 2019 WWW.David-Goldfield.Com

On 8/20/2019 3:31 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM, Bill Tessore wrote:
Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?
Indeed.  Hence the reason I made clear that I was referring to human reading via the sensory modality of vision.

Machine reading is an entirely different thing, and since any white space after a period indicates it's a full stop that's all a "reading machine" needs in most cases to know what's what.  When you're reading "by eye" the size of the gap between sentences can be just as important as the presence of the punctuation mark itself.

The sensory modality being used, and how its been trained, is critical.  I have tried to explain to those who have been reading Braille as the only thing they've ever read that picking the skill up in adulthood by someone who's been sighted for most of their life is just not going to happen.   Our tactile modality has not ever been trained for the kind of discrimination necessary for fluent dot identification on a Braille page, and it's hellishly difficult to acquire if one can even acquire it at all.

How our individual sensory palettes are trained from the moment we start using them, and whether we ever had and lost any of them, makes a huge difference in how we actually can and do use them.   My dear friend used to do a sort of "parlor trick" as far as those of us who are sighted were concerned when we were driving her around our small town.  She could (and would) very often tell you what corner you were on when you stopped at a stop light no matter how it was that you came to be at that spot.  She had trained herself to listen to the characteristic sounds of those intersections and the businesses that surrounded them.   It floored those of us who could see, simply because we cannot do that because we never needed to develop the skill - looking around is faster and easier.   Were I to lose my vision tomorrow I doubt that I could ever cultivate that level of skill, reliably, because of the years of careful training (and I don't mean formal training) it takes to form that kind of auditory discrimination skill for that sort of thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated citrix gateway

Marlo Green
 

Does anyone use this program? I am having accessability issues.

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

On Tue, Aug 20, 2019 at 03:17 PM, Bill Tessore wrote:
Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?
Indeed.  Hence the reason I made clear that I was referring to human reading via the sensory modality of vision.

Machine reading is an entirely different thing, and since any white space after a period indicates it's a full stop that's all a "reading machine" needs in most cases to know what's what.  When you're reading "by eye" the size of the gap between sentences can be just as important as the presence of the punctuation mark itself.

The sensory modality being used, and how its been trained, is critical.  I have tried to explain to those who have been reading Braille as the only thing they've ever read that picking the skill up in adulthood by someone who's been sighted for most of their life is just not going to happen.   Our tactile modality has not ever been trained for the kind of discrimination necessary for fluent dot identification on a Braille page, and it's hellishly difficult to acquire if one can even acquire it at all.

How our individual sensory palettes are trained from the moment we start using them, and whether we ever had and lost any of them, makes a huge difference in how we actually can and do use them.   My dear friend used to do a sort of "parlor trick" as far as those of us who are sighted were concerned when we were driving her around our small town.  She could (and would) very often tell you what corner you were on when you stopped at a stop light no matter how it was that you came to be at that spot.  She had trained herself to listen to the characteristic sounds of those intersections and the businesses that surrounded them.   It floored those of us who could see, simply because we cannot do that because we never needed to develop the skill - looking around is faster and easier.   Were I to lose my vision tomorrow I doubt that I could ever cultivate that level of skill, reliably, because of the years of careful training (and I don't mean formal training) it takes to form that kind of auditory discrimination skill for that sort of thing.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

Bill Tessore
 

Isn’t it interesting to note that for those that read with synthesizers, and/or braille, this is a non-issue?

Shalom,

Bill Tessore

On Aug 20, 2019, at 7:33 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

There exists scads of research out there in regard to what makes text more (visually, not machine) readable.   It's pretty well known that serifed fonts are easier for humans to read than ones without serifs.

I thought it was actually kind of amusing to read the linked article passionately screaming that one space was enough and to find myself having a harder time reading it as a result.   Single spaces in proportional fonts are often very narrow, as they generally only need to be when separating words, but that makes them insufficient for separating sentences to my visual taste.

There are certain feuds that will never be settled.  This is one of them.  I'll continue using two spaces after a full stop before commencing my next sentence, thanks.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Testing / please ignore

Dave Mitchell
 

Why did the spider cross the road?

To get to the other Website.

 

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

moderated Re: updates

Cristóbal
 

I mean… who wants to go back to the days where there was only one yearly release of Jaws and if there was some sort of bug in the update or if something got broken in an application or whatever, then good luck working around it until October/November for the next update.

These periodic releases have been hugely helpful with addressing stuff and fixing them faster.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 10:32 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Every software company messes up from time to time, for the most part Jaws just as NVDA is probably doing a lot of work just to keep up with changes  from Microsoft since they seem to change things which impact screenreaders on a pretty regular bases these days. I am not sure why you would make the statement about being lucky Vispero isn’t charging for these bug fixes, they never have and there is no indication they ever will. There really hasn’t been a change  in how Vispero charges for their updates for a lot of years and even then I don’t recall the last time the price for the SMA you have to buy every two years went up. I guess the introduction in the US of the subscription model counts as a change although at this point it is more of an alternative way of being able to use Jaws since existing users can still continue to pay their $5 a month which is what the $120 for a Jaws Home SMA boils down to.

I use an application for my point of sale which is not getting any feature updates or bug fixes any more, yet I pay $347 US every single year so I can continue to use it, if I didn’t it would no longer work when it expires every January 31, but I need it so I have no choice. I really wonder why some blind people think everything needs to be free.

 

Regards,

Sieghard

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Mladek
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 4:45 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

That sure was a politically correct way to say JAWS/Freedom Scientific or whomever they call themselves now messed up and had to put out a “fix”. Feel blessed they have not begun charging for their said fixes yet.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Jason White via Groups.Io
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 7:42 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io; jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Every item in the release notes accompanying each update serves as a reason for releasing the update.

 

From: <main@jfw.groups.io> on behalf of "T. Civitello" <tcivi31@...>
Reply-To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019 at 07:28
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

Robin Frost
 

Hi,
I will too glad someone else thought it besides me. Here’s to two spaces.  Take good care.
Robin
 
 

From: Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, August 20, 2019 10:33 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.
 
There exists scads of research out there in regard to what makes text more (visually, not machine) readable.   It's pretty well known that serifed fonts are easier for humans to read than ones without serifs.

I thought it was actually kind of amusing to read the linked article passionately screaming that one space was enough and to find myself having a harder time reading it as a result.   Single spaces in proportional fonts are often very narrow, as they generally only need to be when separating words, but that makes them insufficient for separating sentences to my visual taste.

There are certain feuds that will never be settled.  This is one of them.  I'll continue using two spaces after a full stop before commencing my next sentence, thanks.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

There exists scads of research out there in regard to what makes text more (visually, not machine) readable.   It's pretty well known that serifed fonts are easier for humans to read than ones without serifs.

I thought it was actually kind of amusing to read the linked article passionately screaming that one space was enough and to find myself having a harder time reading it as a result.   Single spaces in proportional fonts are often very narrow, as they generally only need to be when separating words, but that makes them insufficient for separating sentences to my visual taste.

There are certain feuds that will never be settled.  This is one of them.  I'll continue using two spaces after a full stop before commencing my next sentence, thanks.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer