Date   
moderated Re: The List

Mario
 

yes, that's the one.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Richard Turner [mailto:richardturner42@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Wednesday, August 21, 2019, 5:48 PM
Subject: The List

i believe they are talking about the Jaws Users list that was run by
Rick Justice and David Farren, (I am not sure how David spells his last
name) but things had gotten pretty ugly at times there.
In any case, that list is no more.
That list showed "Jaws Users" in the subject line, so it was easy to
tell which list messages were coming from.


Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2.


On Aug 21, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Don H <lmddh50@...> wrote:

Sorry I missed something which list are we talking about and who was
the owner?

On 8/21/2019 4:12 PM, Pastor Gil Pries wrote:
That’s terrible!
I hope all the other list members from that list come here.
Pastor Gil
*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *JM Casey
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 1:50 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List
I didn’t realise the archive was also gone. That’s pretty bad; there
were years and years of data there.
*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 21, 2019 4:44 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List
JM,
My central point being, if you want to walk away from list
ownership, that's fine. But you can do that without literally taking it
offline.
It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away
if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and
have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private
list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is
now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you
head out the door.
Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do
than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362
Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.
~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

Cristóbal
 

Yeah… It just came off as a small and petty. Anyway… I think I’m going to hold off on joining. Who knows how many refugees from the old list will even hear about the new one. I’m guessing at first anyway, the majority of folks who join will be the same people on this blindtech and the other JFW list. Seriously… To just blow it up like that without even a heads up. There were probably a lot of folks on that list who need more help than others to find their way. Just to cast them out like that… Messed up. I believe that David guy is also a member of one or two other lists I belong too. Who knows if he’ll interact with them or if it was an entire withdrawal type of deal. 

On Aug 21, 2019, at 2:00 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Cristobal,

          As so many owner martinets do!

          However, it appears that someone promptly created a group here on Groups.io that is the stub of a replacement.  I am mentioning this only because of this topic, which I believe is legitimate to discuss here:  Jaws Help Website

           If there's a way to get at the help content historically available, regardless of where it is, that's worth sharing in my opinion, even on a "competing list" like this one.  And I really don't consider the lists in competition in any meaningful sense.

            I'd love to see "blind technology" traffic become less fragmented, not more, though there is definite room for separate lists for things like JAWS, NVDA, Narrator, etc.  I still, for myself, would prefer a grand, unified "screen reader and blind technology" group myself, as there is a lot of information on each of these that are completely applicable or easily translatable to the others.   But history often dictates structure, and it sure does at the moment.

             With list management software like Groups.io has, each user can easily tailor their own experience even on high-traffic groups if they wish to do so.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

Flor Lynch
 

The programs page, Scripts page, Tips & Tricks page, and Audio page, are still at www.jaws-users.com >>.

-----Original Message-----
From: cecropia64
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 9:52 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

yes.?? too bad there isn't a way when lists go belly up to maybe transfer
the data so it doesn't just disappear for good.?? truly a loss


stew

On 8/21/2019 4:50 PM, JM Casey wrote:

I didn???t realise the archive was also gone. That???s pretty bad; there were years and years of data there.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 21, 2019 4:44 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List

JM,

?? ?? ?? ?? ?? My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.?? But you can do that without literally taking it offline.

?? ?? ?? ?? ?? It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.

?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit,??Version 1903, Build 18362

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

Richard Turner
 

i believe they are talking about the Jaws Users list that was run by Rick Justice and David Farren, (I am not sure how David spells his last name) but things had gotten pretty ugly at times there.
In any case, that list is no more.
That list showed "Jaws Users" in the subject line, so it was easy to tell which list messages were coming from.


Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 


On Aug 21, 2019, at 2:41 PM, Don H <lmddh50@...> wrote:

Sorry I missed something which list are we talking about and who was the owner?

On 8/21/2019 4:12 PM, Pastor Gil Pries wrote:
That’s terrible!
I hope all the other list members from that list come here.
Pastor Gil
*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *JM Casey
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 1:50 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List
I didn’t realise the archive was also gone. That’s pretty bad; there were years and years of data there.
*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 21, 2019 4:44 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List
JM,
          My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.  But you can do that without literally taking it offline.
          It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.
           Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362
Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.
         ~ Eric Hoffer




moderated Re: The List

Don H
 

Sorry I missed something which list are we talking about and who was the owner?

On 8/21/2019 4:12 PM, Pastor Gil Pries wrote:
That’s terrible!
I hope all the other list members from that list come here.
Pastor Gil
*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *JM Casey
*Sent:* Wednesday, August 21, 2019 1:50 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List
I didn’t realise the archive was also gone. That’s pretty bad; there were years and years of data there.
*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 21, 2019 4:44 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List
JM,
          My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.  But you can do that without literally taking it offline.
          It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.
           Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362
Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.
         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

Pastor Gil Pries
 

That’s terrible!

I hope all the other list members from that list come here.

 

Pastor Gil

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 1:50 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

 

I didn’t realise the archive was also gone. That’s pretty bad; there were years and years of data there.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 21, 2019 4:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

 

JM,

          My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.  But you can do that without literally taking it offline.

          It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.

           Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

 

Cristobal,

          As so many owner martinets do!

          However, it appears that someone promptly created a group here on Groups.io that is the stub of a replacement.  I am mentioning this only because of this topic, which I believe is legitimate to discuss here:  Jaws Help Website

           If there's a way to get at the help content historically available, regardless of where it is, that's worth sharing in my opinion, even on a "competing list" like this one.  And I really don't consider the lists in competition in any meaningful sense.

            I'd love to see "blind technology" traffic become less fragmented, not more, though there is definite room for separate lists for things like JAWS, NVDA, Narrator, etc.  I still, for myself, would prefer a grand, unified "screen reader and blind technology" group myself, as there is a lot of information on each of these that are completely applicable or easily translatable to the others.   But history often dictates structure, and it sure does at the moment.

             With list management software like Groups.io has, each user can easily tailor their own experience even on high-traffic groups if they wish to do so.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

Cristóbal
 

I’m sure David would say that since it was his list, he could do whatever he wanted etc. etc.… Still though, seems like a bunch of weak sauce to just abruptly pull the plug on it like that. 

On Aug 21, 2019, at 1:43 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

JM,

          My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.  But you can do that without literally taking it offline.

          It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.

           Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

cecropia64
 

yes.?? too bad there isn't a way when lists go belly up to maybe transfer the data so it doesn't just disappear for good.?? truly a loss


stew

On 8/21/2019 4:50 PM, JM Casey wrote:

I didn???t realise the archive was also gone. That???s pretty bad; there were years and years of data there.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 21, 2019 4:44 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List

JM,

?? ?? ?? ?? ?? My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.?? But you can do that without literally taking it offline.

?? ?? ?? ?? ?? It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.

?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit,??Version 1903, Build 18362

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

JM Casey
 

I didn’t realise the archive was also gone. That’s pretty bad; there were years and years of data there.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 21, 2019 4:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

 

JM,

          My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.  But you can do that without literally taking it offline.

          It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.

           Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

cecropia64
 

yes maria.?? that is the same list.?? i guess i was just very surprised that this decision was made just like that without any regard to the folks who relied on the information they got from it.?? just very disappointed.?? glad this list is still here.?? not too many lists out there for jaws.


stew

On 8/21/2019 4:46 PM, Maria Campbell wrote:

I'm not sure what list you are talking about, unless it's the JAWS users list of that same name.?? I left it quite a while ago, because I was chastised for not being a passive follower of all things VFO.?? The owner appeared to be on a power trip with a very heavy hand.?? Too bad it's gone, but no surprise.


Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

On 8/21/2019 4:38 PM, JM Casey wrote:

I???m not always so good at ???reading??? peoples??? emotions twhom I don???t know in text, and I guess what came across as a bit of grumbling was actually some kinf of emotional distress. Don???t know what was going on behind the scenes or even if he tried to hand the list over to someone else. Perhaps there were no takers. That list existed for a very long time, too???

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 21, 2019 4:15 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: The List

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 03:55 PM, JM Casey wrote:

The main moderator (I think) said that it had been brewing for
quite a while

Not that I have any experience with that list, but I have plenty with lists in general.

It is a poor, poor list owner indeed that just shuts down a list unannounced.?? ??It simply isn't done if you have any integrity at all.?? The content created in lists and their archives may be "mechanically owned" by a list owner, but are actually owned by the membership.?? It is always possible to permanently lock a list, and walk away, leaving the archive content accessible if there is no one who you'd care to hand it over to.

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit,??Version 1903, Build 18362

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

???????????????? ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

Maria Campbell
 

I'm not sure what list you are talking about, unless it's the JAWS users list of that same name.  I left it quite a while ago, because I was chastised for not being a passive follower of all things VFO.  The owner appeared to be on a power trip with a very heavy hand.  Too bad it's gone, but no surprise.


Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing.

On 8/21/2019 4:38 PM, JM Casey wrote:

I’m not always so good at “reading” peoples’ emotions twhom I don’t know in text, and I guess what came across as a bit of grumbling was actually some kinf of emotional distress. Don’t know what was going on behind the scenes or even if he tried to hand the list over to someone else. Perhaps there were no takers. That list existed for a very long time, too…

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 21, 2019 4:15 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

 

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 03:55 PM, JM Casey wrote:

The main moderator (I think) said that it had been brewing for quite a while

Not that I have any experience with that list, but I have plenty with lists in general.

It is a poor, poor list owner indeed that just shuts down a list unannounced.   It simply isn't done if you have any integrity at all.  The content created in lists and their archives may be "mechanically owned" by a list owner, but are actually owned by the membership.  It is always possible to permanently lock a list, and walk away, leaving the archive content accessible if there is no one who you'd care to hand it over to.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

 

JM,

          My central point being, if you want to walk away from list ownership, that's fine.  But you can do that without literally taking it offline.

          It's a simple matter to either lock the list and walk away if you want to encase the current content of the archive in amber and have it accessible for others (or at least members, if it was a private list) to search or to announce that you're walking away and the list is now unmoderated, making sure you throw open the permissions before you head out the door.

           Either of those is a more decent and reasonable thing to do than just closing up shop and blowing it up.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

JM Casey
 

I’m not always so good at “reading” peoples’ emotions twhom I don’t know in text, and I guess what came across as a bit of grumbling was actually some kinf of emotional distress. Don’t know what was going on behind the scenes or even if he tried to hand the list over to someone else. Perhaps there were no takers. That list existed for a very long time, too…

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 21, 2019 4:15 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

 

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 03:55 PM, JM Casey wrote:

The main moderator (I think) said that it had been brewing for quite a while

Not that I have any experience with that list, but I have plenty with lists in general.

It is a poor, poor list owner indeed that just shuts down a list unannounced.   It simply isn't done if you have any integrity at all.  The content created in lists and their archives may be "mechanically owned" by a list owner, but are actually owned by the membership.  It is always possible to permanently lock a list, and walk away, leaving the archive content accessible if there is no one who you'd care to hand it over to.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: The List

 

On Wed, Aug 21, 2019 at 03:55 PM, JM Casey wrote:
The main moderator (I think) said that it had been brewing for quite a while
Not that I have any experience with that list, but I have plenty with lists in general.

It is a poor, poor list owner indeed that just shuts down a list unannounced.   It simply isn't done if you have any integrity at all.  The content created in lists and their archives may be "mechanically owned" by a list owner, but are actually owned by the membership.  It is always possible to permanently lock a list, and walk away, leaving the archive content accessible if there is no one who you'd care to hand it over to.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

moderated Re: Netflix and audio description

Randy Barnett
 

The fire stick is the latest version with the Alexa remote so you can talk to it. The Sampson is a new 32 inch Samsung smart TV. Both are easy to use.  the Roku is just an old Roku I don't know probably first gen. 

On Aug 21, 2019, at 12:50 PM, William Hersh <billhsh@...> wrote:

Thanks Randy

Could you tell me which was easiest for you? I take it the Roku was not the best. Was it Roku 2 or 3? And which FireStick?

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Randy Barnett
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 9:51 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Netflix and audio description

 

Hi Bill, I've used audio description with Netflix successfully without issues on Samsung smart TV, Roku and Amazon fire stick. On All but the Roku I used voice feedback. on the Roku someone else did it. It  was an older one that Didn't have voice feedback but it still work for audio description.

Randy Barnett owner of soundtique


On Aug 21, 2019, at 4:57 AM, William Hersh <billhsh@...> wrote:

Hi Listers

 

Any opinions on using Audio Description on Netflix? What are some winning combinations - smart TV with or without Roku 3? FireStick? Better on tablet? Better on PC? Better with Apple TV? Any failed combinations? Known issues?

 

Thanks

Bill

moderated Re: The List

JM Casey
 

Yeah, it was pretty sudden. The main moderator (I think) said that it had been brewing for quite a while, but I really saw no evidence of poor behaviour at least in the public messages. Everyone has different standadrs, I guess.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of cecropia64
Sent: August 21, 2019 8:27 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

yes, that was a total shocker.?? i was thinking the same thing. folks are going to need a place to talk all things jaws.?? hope this is it.


stew

On 8/21/2019 8:24 AM, Gerald Levy via Groups.Io wrote:

Welll, now that the JAWS-Users list has been shut down, which happened
abruptly and without warning last night, this list is likely to become
even more active.


Gerald


to become even more

On 8/21/2019 8:16 AM, Pastor Gil Pries wrote:
It was very active when I was a member before.

Pastor Gil

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of cecropia64
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 5:14 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: The List

on top of all that this list has been very quiet for a long time.?
little going on

On 8/21/2019 8:12 AM, Pastor Gil Pries wrote:
My emails are taking a very long time to get back to me which means I
am not approved as yet.

Pastor Gil








moderated Re: Netflix and audio description

William Hersh
 

Thanks Randy

Could you tell me which was easiest for you? I take it the Roku was not the best. Was it Roku 2 or 3? And which FireStick?

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Randy Barnett
Sent: Wednesday, August 21, 2019 9:51 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Netflix and audio description

 

Hi Bill, I've used audio description with Netflix successfully without issues on Samsung smart TV, Roku and Amazon fire stick. On All but the Roku I used voice feedback. on the Roku someone else did it. It  was an older one that Didn't have voice feedback but it still work for audio description.

Randy Barnett owner of soundtique


On Aug 21, 2019, at 4:57 AM, William Hersh <billhsh@...> wrote:

Hi Listers

 

Any opinions on using Audio Description on Netflix? What are some winning combinations - smart TV with or without Roku 3? FireStick? Better on tablet? Better on PC? Better with Apple TV? Any failed combinations? Known issues?

 

Thanks

Bill

moderated Re: JAWS guide for MS Word?

Richard Turner
 

You may also want to take a look at Perkins School's Paths To Literacy. Here is the link:

http://www.pathstoliteracy.org/strategies/learning-jaws-lessons-and-review




Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 


On Aug 21, 2019, at 8:25 AM, Akshaya Choudhary <acsociopath@...> wrote:

Hello guys, 
Is there a detailed guide for using JAWS with MS Word? 
would really appreciate if someone could guide me in the right direction. 

Regards 

moderated Re: JAWS guide for MS Word?

 

Always search the Freedom Scientific site.  There are generally, and definitely are in this case, webinars and other documentation.   I just searched using the two keywords JAWS and Word in the search box and there's lots of material there, you just need to sift through and look at what's relevant to you.

Free MS-Word with JAWS Webinar

Free Improving JAWS Skills in Word Webinar

There are downloadable documents associated with these, and they're only two things I found on the first page of search results at the FS site.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer