Date   

moderated Re: application mode

Adrian Spratt
 

If I understand your question correctly, I get out of applications mode by pressing the PC cursor twice quickly.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Justin Williams
Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2020 3:52 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: application mode

 

Had an issue today with application mode.

 

I was uploading a file, and when I got done with it, I couldn't get out of application mode.

 

Not to mention, that it didn't tell me whether I was uploading a resume, a reference, or a cover letter.

 

I used rout jaws to pc to arrow around some, then used rooted pc to jaws to break out of it.

 

Also, I found that hitting enter twice, and or pulling up the links list and selecting, move to link worked.

 

However, I was wondering if any of you had a better way of working with that…

 

Thanks,

 

Justin

 

 


moderated application mode

Justin Williams
 

Had an issue today with application mode.

 

I was uploading a file, and when I got done with it, I couldn't get out of application mode.

 

Not to mention, that it didn't tell me whether I was uploading a resume, a reference, or a cover letter.

 

I used rout jaws to pc to arrow around some, then used rooted pc to jaws to break out of it.

 

Also, I found that hitting enter twice, and or pulling up the links list and selecting, move to link worked.

 

However, I was wondering if any of you had a better way of working with that…

 

Thanks,

 

Justin

 

 


moderated Re: Using JAWS to create a label for a button on a web site, which has no text label

Dave Durber
 

Ceigart:

Unfortunately, the link and the button I posted about, are on the site after you have logged on with your user name and password.

Dave Durber

----- Original Message -----
From: "Sieghard Weitzel" <@Sieghard>
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 1:23 PM
Subject: Re: Using JAWS to create a label for a button on a web site, which has no text label


Could you give the link to that site if it's not private?

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Durber
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 2:48 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Using JAWS to create a label for a button on a web site, which has no text label

Hello everyone:

The other day, I accessed a web site, which on the whole, was very accessible.

Unfortunately, there were 2 problems. the first, was the link, which took you to the shopping basket page. This link had no text lable, to tell a user of a screen reader the purpose of the link. The link is a standard HTML coded link.

the second is a standard HTML button, which also does not have a text label.
This button is for removing an item from the shopping basket.

My question is, is there a way within JAWS, where you can attach labels to specific links and buttons on an individual web site?

The link and button on this web site are not graphics

Thanks in anticipation.

Dave Durber


moderated Re: Adding a new profile in Google Chrome

Pramit
 

Hi Bill,

Adding the steps below to add or remove new profile on Google Chrome

1. Go to Chrome Settings "Alt + F + S"
2. Tab to "You and Google" and hit Enter.
3. Tab Once and Hit spacebar and you'll get few options
4. Arrow down to select any one of the "Use Another Account" or "Sign Out"

Hope this helps

Pramit


On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 12:14 PM Bill White <billwhite92701@...> wrote:

What are the steps for adding a new profile in Google Chrome with JAWS?

 

And as long as I am asking, what would be the steps for removing a profile?

 

Thank you.

 

Bill White

billwhite92701@...

 


moderated Re: undoing effect in Excel

Ann Byrne
 

Using these keystrokes creates a .jsi file, which you will need to delete in order to remove the command.

Go to the JAWS screen.
Utilities
explore utilities folder.
Explore my settings.
Personalized settings.
the excel.jsi file will be there.
Wipe it out.

If that doesn't work, holler and I will look harder.At 06:09 PM 4/17/2020, you wrote:

I've used Alt+Control+JAWSKey+R which defines the selected columns as those containing row titles for the current region.
I've also used Alt+Control+JAWSKey+C which defines the selected rows as those containing column titles for the current region.

what do I have to do if I do not need or want the effect anymore?


moderated Re: An accessible router

Gmail Jonas
 

Some routers aare using chips that will over heat!

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jason White via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 7:52 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: An accessible router

Yes, mine is 802.11AC.

On 4/16/20, 21:01, "David Csercsics" <main@jfw.groups.io on behalf of bleeblat@...> wrote:

Were you able to get openwrt to work with wifi 6 or 80211ac? The page I
looked at seemed to indicate that only 80211G was supported or
something, but I'd need at least N I'd think. What sort of router did
you get? I liked openwrt when I used it, but haven't been able to find a
supported router lately. Maybe they haven't updated the hardware table?


moderated Re: An accessible router

Jason White
 

Yes, mine is 802.11AC.

On 4/16/20, 21:01, "David Csercsics" <main@jfw.groups.io on behalf of bleeblat@...> wrote:

Were you able to get openwrt to work with wifi 6 or 80211ac? The page I
looked at seemed to indicate that only 80211G was supported or
something, but I'd need at least N I'd think. What sort of router did
you get? I liked openwrt when I used it, but haven't been able to find a
supported router lately. Maybe they haven't updated the hardware table?


moderated Re: undoing effect in Excel

 

Mario,

           I have never been clear whether this does something within JAWS itself (in which case what follows will probably not apply) or if it works with the Define Names command of Excel itself.

           If it is working with the Define Name command, I believe you can get rid of them by selecting the row/column you originally selected, hitting CTRL+SHIFT+F3, and when the dialog comes up for Create Names from Selection then uncheck the checkbox(es) checked, and hit OK.  I think that will undefine them.  It's worth a try, anyway, as the CTRL+SHIFT+F3 is how you initially define them via Excel itself based on what's the selected range.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Tolerance is the positive and cordial effort to understand another's beliefs, practices, and habits without necessarily sharing or accepting them.

        ~ Joshua Liebman


moderated Re: problems with mail and JAWS?

Lino Morales
 

The Mail app is a royal pain with JAWS. Like others I use NVDA to read my mail and everything is happy, happy, happy. I need to put my 2 cents worth about it’s problems with Glen and company on the next FS Cast Live. Back when JFW 18 was out the Mail app worked really well.

 

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                               

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Sent from Mail for Windows 10

                                                                                                               

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 7:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io; win10@win10.groups.io
Cc: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: problems with mail and JAWS?

 

Ashleigh, I forgot to tell you, but perhaps you already know, pressing the insert (or JAWS key) plus escape is screen update. I’m not sure if this is happening because I need to change something in settings, but I haven’t investigated further. All I know is that I can read my email messages and don’t have that other stuff—but I have to do it every time.

 

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Shirley Tracy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 3:21 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io; win10@win10.groups.io
Cc: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: problems with mail and JAWS?

 

Yes, I have had this problem. Originally, we thought it was because my window was not maximized. But it kept happening. Here’s what I figured out: When you open the message, if it’s acting goofy, like you mentioned, press the JAWS key and Escape. I don’t know why it works, but it does. You might need to give it a couple seconds, but the message will read as it should.

 

HTH.

 

Shirley

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Ashleigh Piccinino
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Cc: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: problems with mail and JAWS?

 

Hello,

Recently, I’ve been experiencing a weird problem with Windows mail and JAWS. It’s now hit or miss as to whether JAWS will read e-mails as they’re open, bring up the thing where it says “mail start groups navigation” and a whole bunch of stuff, open the message but make it appear blank, or just crash. If I’m not making se4nse here, it doesn’t make sense to me either. However, I’m just wondering if any of you have had this issue? It’s been going on for me for quite some time but can’t really pin it on when my computer was taken into the shop for servicing/updates, and that was before I started my winter semester this year.

Thank you,

Ashleigh Piccinino

P.S. another happening with JAWS and the mail app is that I can’t reach any attachments with tabbing as JAWS just crashes. Everything’s on the latest updates, so …

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 

 

 


moderated Re: problems with mail and JAWS?

Shirley Tracy
 

Ashleigh, I forgot to tell you, but perhaps you already know, pressing the insert (or JAWS key) plus escape is screen update. I’m not sure if this is happening because I need to change something in settings, but I haven’t investigated further. All I know is that I can read my email messages and don’t have that other stuff—but I have to do it every time.

 

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Shirley Tracy via groups.io
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 3:21 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io; win10@win10.groups.io
Cc: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: problems with mail and JAWS?

 

Yes, I have had this problem. Originally, we thought it was because my window was not maximized. But it kept happening. Here’s what I figured out: When you open the message, if it’s acting goofy, like you mentioned, press the JAWS key and Escape. I don’t know why it works, but it does. You might need to give it a couple seconds, but the message will read as it should.

 

HTH.

 

Shirley

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Ashleigh Piccinino
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Cc: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: problems with mail and JAWS?

 

Hello,

Recently, I’ve been experiencing a weird problem with Windows mail and JAWS. It’s now hit or miss as to whether JAWS will read e-mails as they’re open, bring up the thing where it says “mail start groups navigation” and a whole bunch of stuff, open the message but make it appear blank, or just crash. If I’m not making se4nse here, it doesn’t make sense to me either. However, I’m just wondering if any of you have had this issue? It’s been going on for me for quite some time but can’t really pin it on when my computer was taken into the shop for servicing/updates, and that was before I started my winter semester this year.

Thank you,

Ashleigh Piccinino

P.S. another happening with JAWS and the mail app is that I can’t reach any attachments with tabbing as JAWS just crashes. Everything’s on the latest updates, so …

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 

 


moderated undoing effect in Excel

Mario
 

I've used Alt+Control+JAWSKey+R which defines the selected columns as those containing row titles for the current region.
I've also used Alt+Control+JAWSKey+C which defines the selected rows as those containing column titles for the current region.

what do I have to do if I do not need or want the effect anymore?


moderated Re: searching my computer

Andrew J. LaPointe
 

Thank you for this information.  Andy and Shubert

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 11:01 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: searching my computer

 

Is this a network drive, as Chris suggested it might be, or is it a USB drive (whether flash or HDD or SSD), or is it a partition on one of the internal drives in your computer?

Windows search only searches indexed locations, and though you can set it to search non-indexed locations, believe me, you don't want to do that.  You need to open Control Panel, Indexing options and check to see what your indexed locations actually are a the moment.  If you wish to edit these to add or delete a drive, that drive has to be connected when you're attempting to do so.  Activate the Modify button, and at the top there is a grouping Change selected location that contains a list of locations with checkboxes next to them (and dropdown arrows to expand in case you only want to index some specific folder or folders in a drive).  Checking the checkbox for the drive you want to have searched will add it to the index.

You can add networked drives to the index, and that's well explained here:  https://www.online-tech-tips.com/windows-10/add-network-folder-to-windows-search-index/

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Tolerance is the positive and cordial effort to understand another's beliefs, practices, and habits without necessarily sharing or accepting them.

        ~ Joshua Liebman


moderated Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

Sherri
 

I don’t know.  Doesn’t seem to have changed anything else.  I changed this option in all my folders.

 

Sherri

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Tom Moore
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 5:14 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

Hi guys,

Exactly what options are changed when we do this?

I did not hear Jaws tell me what settings were changed as I did them?

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of james hooper
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

Thanks bill got it.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill White
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 10:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

Hi, James. Try this.

 

1. Open Outlook.

2. Open the folder where messages are arranged by date.

3. Press ALT plus V, followed by the letters A, B, W.

 

This will remove all groupings from the folder.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of james hooper
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 7:42 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

Jaws announces the date when going through message Greetings okay when I am going through messages it says  to date expanded yesterday 2 days ago how do I get rid of this.


moderated Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 05:16 PM, Tom Moore wrote:
Exactly what options are changed when we do this?
That's odd.  Using JAWS 2020 and Outlook 2016 I am getting narration at each and every one of those steps except the last for the Show Groups toggle.
 
I noted what each step does at 11:27 this morning:   ALT+V (View Ribbon), AB (quickly, together for arrangement), W (toggle for Show in Groups, on by default).

You're not changing the actual arrangement unless you were to do something else, and the default is Conversations by date.  You're just taking the by date groupings that are shown in the inbox away.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

Tolerance is the positive and cordial effort to understand another's beliefs, practices, and habits without necessarily sharing or accepting them.

        ~ Joshua Liebman


moderated Re: Can a JPG file within the email body be extracted to perform OCR?

Marty Hutchings
 

Kelly, You may not remember me, but I believe that you and I were in a support group together back in 1990 at BSA in Chicago. We can talk off list at mhutchings152730@...



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13

-----Original Message-----
From: Kelly Pierce
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 4:05 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Can a JPG file within the email body be extracted to perform OCR?

I don't know, but it could easily be done if the jpg file were
downloaded onto a desktop computer and scanned by K1000. I have read
numerous CD liner notes this way.

Kelly

<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
/></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
</td>
</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>

On 4/17/20, Peter Tesar <ptesar@...> wrote:
Hi,


This JPG file is not an attachment. It is a picture of a newspaper
article pasted into the email.


I'm using Jaws and Thunderbird.

Can I extract it as a file, and then use Jaws to OCR IT?


Thanks,


Peter T.






moderated Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

Tom Moore
 

Hi guys,

Exactly what options are changed when we do this?

I did not hear Jaws tell me what settings were changed as I did them?

 

Thanks,

Tom

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of james hooper
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

Thanks bill got it.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill White
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 10:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

Hi, James. Try this.

 

1. Open Outlook.

2. Open the folder where messages are arranged by date.

3. Press ALT plus V, followed by the letters A, B, W.

 

This will remove all groupings from the folder.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of james hooper
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 7:42 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: getting rid of outlook saying message from today yesterday etc.

 

Jaws announces the date when going through message Greetings okay when I am going through messages it says  to date expanded yesterday 2 days ago how do I get rid of this.


moderated Re: Can a JPG file within the email body be extracted to perform OCR?

Kelly Pierce
 

I don't know, but it could easily be done if the jpg file were
downloaded onto a desktop computer and scanned by K1000. I have read
numerous CD liner notes this way.

Kelly

<div id="DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2"><br />
<table style="border-top: 1px solid #D3D4DE;">
<tr>
<td style="width: 55px; padding-top: 13px;"><a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=icon"
target="_blank"><img
src="https://ipmcdn.avast.com/images/icons/icon-envelope-tick-round-orange-animated-no-repeat-v1.gif"
alt="" width="46" height="29" style="width: 46px; height: 29px;"
/></a></td>
<td style="width: 470px; padding-top: 12px; color: #41424e;
font-size: 13px; font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
line-height: 18px;">Virus-free. <a
href="https://www.avast.com/sig-email?utm_medium=email&utm_source=link&utm_campaign=sig-email&utm_content=webmail&utm_term=link"
target="_blank" style="color: #4453ea;">www.avast.com</a>
</td>
</tr>
</table><a href="#DAB4FAD8-2DD7-40BB-A1B8-4E2AA1F9FDF2" width="1"
height="1"></a></div>

On 4/17/20, Peter Tesar <ptesar@...> wrote:
Hi,


This JPG file is not an attachment. It is a picture of a newspaper
article pasted into the email.


I'm using Jaws and Thunderbird.

Can I extract it as a file, and then use Jaws to OCR IT?


Thanks,


Peter T.






moderated Can a JPG file within the email body be extracted to perform OCR?

Peter Tesar
 

Hi,


This JPG file is not an attachment. It is a picture of a newspaper article pasted into the email.


I'm using Jaws and Thunderbird.

Can I extract it as a file, and then use Jaws to OCR IT?


Thanks,


Peter T.



moderated Re: problems with mail and JAWS?

Shirley Tracy
 

Yes, I have had this problem. Originally, we thought it was because my window was not maximized. But it kept happening. Here’s what I figured out: When you open the message, if it’s acting goofy, like you mentioned, press the JAWS key and Escape. I don’t know why it works, but it does. You might need to give it a couple seconds, but the message will read as it should.

 

HTH.

 

Shirley

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Ashleigh Piccinino
Sent: Friday, April 17, 2020 9:17 AM
To: win10@win10.groups.io
Cc: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: problems with mail and JAWS?

 

Hello,

Recently, I’ve been experiencing a weird problem with Windows mail and JAWS. It’s now hit or miss as to whether JAWS will read e-mails as they’re open, bring up the thing where it says “mail start groups navigation” and a whole bunch of stuff, open the message but make it appear blank, or just crash. If I’m not making se4nse here, it doesn’t make sense to me either. However, I’m just wondering if any of you have had this issue? It’s been going on for me for quite some time but can’t really pin it on when my computer was taken into the shop for servicing/updates, and that was before I started my winter semester this year.

Thank you,

Ashleigh Piccinino

P.S. another happening with JAWS and the mail app is that I can’t reach any attachments with tabbing as JAWS just crashes. Everything’s on the latest updates, so …

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

 

 


moderated Resources/RE: Word Press: How do I edit the title of a blog/web page, and how do I remove blog entries in Word Press?

Norma A. Boge
 

Hi group,

 

Here’s one source for some info on using WordPress with assistive tech. I don’t know how recent the info is, but it might be worth a look:

 

https://yourownpay.com/build-website/

 

I am sure I saw something about a WP list for those using screen readers but I didn’t keep the subscribe info. Anyone know of such a group?

 

Here’s a book I got from Bookshare which, although not written from the perspective of a screen reader user, is quite comprehensive and is pretty easy to understand:

 

WordPress All-in-One For Dummies

Lisa Sabin-Wilson

 

And, a lot of the info in the “Dummies” series can be found online. Just use your favorite search engine.

 

Lastly, here’s a site with a lot of info about building a WP site using a screen reader. Instructions are keyboard-based:

 

https://www.customerservant.com/series/wordpress-with-a-screen-reader/

 

I’m on the hunt for additional resources so please share if you have some.

 

HTH and thanks,

Norma

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Justin Williams
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 9:41 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Word Press: How do I edit the title of a blog/web page, and how do I remove blog entries in Word Press?

 

So, where do I learn wordpress?

 

Thanks,

 

Justin

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Kevin Minor
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 3:23 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Word Press: How do I edit the title of a blog/web page, and how do I remove blog entries in Word Press?

 

Hi again.

 

I’m using JAWS 2020 with the latest Windows 10. I’m not finding a move to trash option, and the title I want to change is the title of the web site, not the blogs.

 

Thanks for any help.

Kevin, Jilly, and Valerie

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adrian Spratt
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 2:15 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Word Press: How do I edit the title of a blog/web page, and how do I remove blog entries in Word Press?

 

See if the following steps work for you:

Log in to your WordPress site.

Find “Posts.” I have a placemarker set here.

On the next page, search for the current title of the post you want to edit or delete.

To edit, click on the edit link under the post’s title. When you land on the next page, you will have the option to edit the various fields. Be sure to end by clicking the “Update” button or your changes will be lost.

To delete a post, click on the link below the title. as I recall, it’s labeled “Send to trash.”

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Kevin Minor
Sent: Thursday, April 16, 2020 1:43 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Word Press: How do I edit the title of a blog/web page, and how do I remove blog entries in Word Press?

 

Hi.

 

Subject says it all. If I can accomplish the above two tasks, the blog I’ve created would be much better.

 

Thanks in advance for the help.

Kevin, Jilly and Valerie