Date   

moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

David Diamond
 

Yes, I think anyone that takes offense at Brian’s comment is just looking for something to get offended at and is not secure within themselves.  I also think the basis of all of this is, if English is not their first language, they are thinking in their native tongue. We have 2 primary languages in Canada and I’ve frequently run into the problem of if English is not their first language, you could talk till you are blue in the face and they still don’t understand what you are saying and just parrot what they said before. It also depends on the person.  Some fool themselves into thinking they are good listeners when, they are just waiting till you are finished talking.     

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Hutchings
Sent: March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Well said, Brian.

 

Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with William Shakespeare who said: “Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020

 

From: Brian Vogel

Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2021 2:24 PM

Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 02:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

HOW DARE YOU!

-
I'm sorry, Joseph, but the complaint is not entirely without merit.

I have nothing against non-US-technical support, but regardless of what offshore tech support is being used by a company, there needs to be some very careful vetting with regard to proficiency with the language of the country being supported.  That has been, on more than one occasion, sadly lacking.  And that is a problem, whether you care for anyone to express it or not.  And there's nothing anti-anything about noting that fact.  People put in a position to do a given job should be able to do it for the target audience.  Those who can't are often pushed there through no fault of their own, but that doesn't matter one whit to the person on the other end of the phone.

There is a reason that some companies are now using, in my case, "US Based Support," as a selling point.  And it's precisely because of the issues I've identified above, and that may have been inelegantly expressed earlier by Mich.

I don't think it's necessarily xenophobic, as much as pure frustration, at the root of these sorts of complaints.  I also imagine they occur in any country you can name where offshore technical support is in wide use.  I've had plenty of calls with T-Mobile support where the person assisting me was perfectly lovely and polite, but where it was clear they did not understand clearly what I as asking and I did not understand clearly what they were saying.  I'm not being xenophobic (as I have no idea of exactly where these individuals are operating from, and I have no problem with immigrants, period) but I am frustrated when that occurs.  And that's the fault of the company, not the tech.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Diane, 

Something weird is going on with your email.  This last message on-group, like your private message to me, is not only bottom posted beneath the quotation of multiple messages, but is in white text on white background.  I doubt very much that either is by intent.

This is likely far less an issue to a screen reader user, since a screen reader cares not one whit about foreground and background colors, but since I know we have a couple of regulars who are visually impaired, rather than totally blind, I am going to quote what you had in your last message directly below:
-----

When speech output was relatively new, I worked as a systems analyst at a local utility company. The VP of that department, I suspect hired me just for the excuse of buying a talking IBM terminal. I was expected to be prepared, without notice, to make it read the pledge of allegiance to anyone he brought to my office. They did not like it as much if I turned off the screen.

 

We must educate society, and insist on full inclusion. What really gets to me is the seeming assumption that I have to have a sighted person readily available, and that if that is the case I would not have already asked for their assistance if eyes would solve the problem. I need to know how to solve issues, by myself, for future problems of that nature.

 

Amazon Kindle tech support should know, for instance, how one turns speech output on/off. Two years ago, they insisted that I had to have "sighted assistance" which, of course, is untrue. I went round and round with them for over an hour before figuring it out for myself.
------


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Leedy Diane Bomar
 



 Diane Bomar

On Mar 6, 2021, at 15:32, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:



Hi,

My $.02.

Part of my job involves meeting with customers and showing them, via my screen and audio, how my screen reader interacts with various content be it a website, an application, or something in between.

People don’t generally encounter blind or visually impaired individuals. Demanding that someone immediately cater to your needs without attempting to educate that person is worse than the person trying to help using visual landmarks. We are the minority. We must help educate, even if we want an issue fixed right away. You can do a great deal to broaden someone’s understanding of what you’re dealing with by attempting to explain where you are on the screen, what your screen reader is speaking, what you expect to happen and what is actually happening. Demanding that you want to speak to someone who can talk to you in nonvisual lingo isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself, because that person will not be able to help the next person who comes along and does not get educated about how to go about conducting themselves with someone who can’t see. It’s a missed opportunity on both sides. You’d be surprised what doesn’t cross someone’s mind and they take for granted.

Is it frustrating? You bet it is. It’s also empowering to help someone understand alternate views on certain aspects of life in general, the issues faced with regards to accessibility and the methods in which they can be alleviated. Hint: yelling, screaming and demanding fixes nothing, apart from making companies less apt to work with us.

I think several also forget that, just because you’re calling the disability support line, doesn’t mean your disability is the only one out there. There are tons of others that are equally misrepresented or unaccounted for.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of E.M. Kirtley
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


When speech output was relatively new, I worked as a systems analyst at a local utility company. The VP of that department, I suspect hired me just for the excuse of buying a talking IBM terminal. I was expected to be prepared, without notice, to make it read the pledge of allegiance to anyone he brought to my office. They did not like it as much if I turned off the screen.


We must educate society, and insist on full inclusion. What really gets to me is the seeming assumption that I have to have a sighted person readily available, and that if that is the case I would not have already asked for their assistance if eyes would solve the problem. I need to know how to solve issues, by myself, for future problems of that nature.


Amazon Kindle tech support should know, for instance, how one turns speech output on/off. Two years ago, they insisted that I had to have "sighted assistance" which, of course, is untrue. I went round and round with them for over an hour before figuring it out for myself.


moderated Re: Shairing Dictionary files

Soronel Haetir
 

The one thing to keep in mind is that the jaws dictionary facility is
actually somewhat limited, in that only 2000 entries can be active for
each of a default and application-specific dictionaries. I've tried
getting them to increase that limit (it may have made sense in very
early versions with limited hardware but not so much any longer) but
have not had any success.

On 3/6/21, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
I don't see why not.  They are plain text files, one can copy one supplied
by someone else and paste those contents on to the end of their own JAWS
dictionary, or, if one has no dictionary yet, just place it in the correct
folder.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

*One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the
shore for a very long time.*

~ André Gide





--
Soronel Haetir
soronel.haetir@gmail.com


moderated Re: Shairing Dictionary files

 

I don't see why not.  They are plain text files, one can copy one supplied by someone else and paste those contents on to the end of their own JAWS dictionary, or, if one has no dictionary yet, just place it in the correct folder.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Shairing Dictionary files

Tony Sohl
 

Hi, can you shair dictionary files with other jaws users? I have some that I have created and I wanted to shair them with other users.


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi,

My response had to do with text. I do understand the overall frustrations with language proficiency (pronunciation, for example), but to use a phrase that can impact some groups negatively is a cause of concern, especially a phrase that impacts me personally. I do know that we screen reader users are sensitive to audio and linguistic stimuli, especially when we talk to other people (including the crux of this thread). In retrospect, I believe the phrase in question, combined with my worries due to rise in anti-Asian sentiment during the pandemic led to my reaction this morning (apologies).

//Joseph

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Hutchings
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Well said, Brian.

 

Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with William Shakespeare who said: “Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020

 

Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2021 2:24 PM

Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 02:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:

HOW DARE YOU!

-
I'm sorry, Joseph, but the complaint is not entirely without merit.

I have nothing against non-US-technical support, but regardless of what offshore tech support is being used by a company, there needs to be some very careful vetting with regard to proficiency with the language of the country being supported.  That has been, on more than one occasion, sadly lacking.  And that is a problem, whether you care for anyone to express it or not.  And there's nothing anti-anything about noting that fact.  People put in a position to do a given job should be able to do it for the target audience.  Those who can't are often pushed there through no fault of their own, but that doesn't matter one whit to the person on the other end of the phone.

There is a reason that some companies are now using, in my case, "US Based Support," as a selling point.  And it's precisely because of the issues I've identified above, and that may have been inelegantly expressed earlier by Mich.

I don't think it's necessarily xenophobic, as much as pure frustration, at the root of these sorts of complaints.  I also imagine they occur in any country you can name where offshore technical support is in wide use.  I've had plenty of calls with T-Mobile support where the person assisting me was perfectly lovely and polite, but where it was clear they did not understand clearly what I as asking and I did not understand clearly what they were saying.  I'm not being xenophobic (as I have no idea of exactly where these individuals are operating from, and I have no problem with immigrants, period) but I am frustrated when that occurs.  And that's the fault of the company, not the tech.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Milton Ota
 

Hello Albert,

 

It would be very helpful if you were to give us more detailed description of your problem by telling us if you are using the most recent update of JAWS, if you are running Windows 10 and what did tech support at Vispero/Freedom Scientific do to fix the problem.

 

Doing this will keep the clutter and flood of e-mail messages going back and forth to try and help.

 

Milton Ota

ICAN Island Computer Access Now

4273 Coventry Dr., S.

Unit E

Fargo, ND 58104-4498

 

Ph: (701) 731-0511

Email: mota1252@...

 

               

 


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Richard Turner
 

You may end up having to call them again, but maybe you could be specific about what settings are not holding?

 

 

 

Richard

 

Ralph's Observation:  It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object<>to realize that you are in a hurry.

 

 

My web site, www.turner42.com

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Albert Cutolo
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 5:09 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

               Good evening everyone, 

 

Earlier this afternoon, I was on a zoom meeting call for my ACB local chapter,   When I got off the zoom call and went back too my desktop,  My Jaws doesn’t retain my Jaws 2021 settings.  I did call Jaws support tech line earlier this week and the problem that I was having about this very issue was fixed.  But now, I’m having this very issue taking place again.  Why is this happening, and what can I do to correct this problem from occurring?


moderated Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Albert Cutolo
 

               Good evening everyone, 

 

Earlier this afternoon, I was on a zoom meeting call for my ACB local chapter,   When I got off the zoom call and went back too my desktop,  My Jaws doesn’t retain my Jaws 2021 settings.  I did call Jaws support tech line earlier this week and the problem that I was having about this very issue was fixed.  But now, I’m having this very issue taking place again.  Why is this happening, and what can I do to correct this problem from occurring?


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Marty Hutchings
 

Well said, Brian.
 
Love in Christ
Marty
If we view this present life as our primary goal, we will agree with William Shakespeare who said: “Life is a tale told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” From TODAY IN THE WORD June 1, 2020
 

Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2021 2:24 PM
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk
 
On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 02:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
HOW DARE YOU!
-
I'm sorry, Joseph, but the complaint is not entirely without merit.

I have nothing against non-US-technical support, but regardless of what offshore tech support is being used by a company, there needs to be some very careful vetting with regard to proficiency with the language of the country being supported.  That has been, on more than one occasion, sadly lacking.  And that is a problem, whether you care for anyone to express it or not.  And there's nothing anti-anything about noting that fact.  People put in a position to do a given job should be able to do it for the target audience.  Those who can't are often pushed there through no fault of their own, but that doesn't matter one whit to the person on the other end of the phone.

There is a reason that some companies are now using, in my case, "US Based Support," as a selling point.  And it's precisely because of the issues I've identified above, and that may have been inelegantly expressed earlier by Mich.

I don't think it's necessarily xenophobic, as much as pure frustration, at the root of these sorts of complaints.  I also imagine they occur in any country you can name where offshore technical support is in wide use.  I've had plenty of calls with T-Mobile support where the person assisting me was perfectly lovely and polite, but where it was clear they did not understand clearly what I as asking and I did not understand clearly what they were saying.  I'm not being xenophobic (as I have no idea of exactly where these individuals are operating from, and I have no problem with immigrants, period) but I am frustrated when that occurs.  And that's the fault of the company, not the tech.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

leonard morris
 

by the way I appreciate the person who stated that we in the blind community can help educate sighted people when it comes to technical support. In fact I was buying a computer (use unfortunately not new smile) last year and I wanted to know how it worked and if I could actually use it properly so I brought up Narrator  to look  around the screen to see what was there and all that and the owner of the computer store was very impressed by that and said he appreciated me doing that because he knew nothing about screen readers and now he could help blind Filipinos customers who are looking to by a computer.



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moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Justin Williams
 

That would be great.

 

I'd like ot have them also.

 

Justin

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Cristóbal,

            If you actually have those numbers and know they're current, would you mind sharing (or if you have URLs for the appropriate pages at their support areas)?  eBay in particular is the 20th circle of hell as far as getting any sort of live support in my experience.  It never hurts to have those phone numbers in one's back pocket in case of need.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Gerald Levy
 


Not true.  I just called the EBay customer support helpline at 866-540-3229 and got a long winded recorded spiel referring customers back to their web site for help. The pandemic notwithstanding, there is no reason why they can't have service agents work from home like other major companies, including Amazon. And if you email them at support@..., you will simply receive a message thanking you for your feedback and again referring you back to their web site for help, but you will not receive an response to your specific inquiry. The same is true of PayPal.   


     Gerald



On 3/6/2021 4:34 PM, Cristóbal wrote:

Just a correction, eBay does still have telephonic and email support. The wife and I sell on this platform and have had to use it from time to time. Same with Amazon. You may need to jump through an extra hoop or two to get support, but it’s there.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:28 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 04:15 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:

And some major companies like EBay and PayPal have done away with custopmer service altogether and no longer offer telephone or email support of any kind,which is especially problematic for blind customers.

-
You can cut out the "blind" and, possibly, the "especially," and your observation still holds true.

There's really not much worse, from a customer perspective, than having abolutely no viable channel to communicate with a company when issues arise.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

leonard morris
 

Well, just for the record many of these call centers employees are already in their own country already so they have no need to go anywhere. I am an American here in the Philippines and there are several call centers in this country. In fact one of them is about a mile from my home. Basically, they work the graveyard shift because they service the states since it is daytime in America. If you are going to blame somebody, blame stateside companies relying on overseas call centers for cheap labor which puts Americans out of work. 

Every country has an identity, history, custom, and culture. It’s a unique landscape in determining how its people Live, work, and play.

On Mar 7, 2021, at 3:52 AM, Joseph Lee <joseph.lee22590@...> wrote:



Hi all,

HOW DARE YOU!

P.S. Folks know that I rarely explode in public like this, but given rising prevalence of hate crimes against minorities in some places around the world, I believe responses like this should be brought to your attention. Also, just for the record, I have asked forum mods to do something about this thread.

With sadness,

Joseph

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mich Verrier
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 10:52 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I have a problem when calling these places and get to some one who can hardly speek English and who lives in indiea or some forin place like that to me if you can’t speek English or hardly can then go back to your oan contrey. Also I am worried when working with ms accessibillidey that they are always going to screw something up when they want to fix your pc remotely. From Mich.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
Sent: March 6, 2021 1:40 PMi am always worried when working with ms disibillidey desk that they are going to screw up my pc when they ae wanting to remotely access it. From Mich.
To:I have a problem when I call places and get transferd to some one who hardly knows English sorry but if you don’t know English then get another job or move back to your oan contrey. That is just my thoughts on this also as far as working with the Microsoft disibillidey desk I have had no problums with them in the past how ever I am always worried when they start messing around with y pc that they are going to screw something up. From Mich.
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

-
Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Installing Jaws scripts

Mike B.
 


Hi Mario,
 
Yes, but he's asking about Jaws14.
 
Stay safe and take care.  Mike.

----- Original Message -----
From: Mario
Sent: Saturday, March 06, 2021 1:28 PM
Subject: Re: Installing Jaws scripts

Mike, with JAWS 2020 and I suspect newer versions, one needs to enter on
Utilities instead of Explore JAWS,
and continue as directed.

------- Original Message --------
From: Mike B [mailto:mb69mach1@...]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 6, 2021, 2:53 PM
Subject: Installing Jaws scripts
Hi John,
Try the following:
1. Open the start menu with the windows key and open the All Programs
submenu.
2. Navigate to the version of Jaws you want to work with and press enter.
3. Press enter on, Explore Jaws, now down arrow to, Explore my settings,
and press enter. This puts you directly into the ENU folder of this
version of Jaws and this is where you want to paste your scripts.
If you need more help just let us know.
Stay safe and take care. Mike.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* John J. Fioravanti, Jr. <mailto:fioresq1@...>
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Sent:* Saturday, March 06, 2021 7:02 AM
*Subject:* Re: Installing Jaws scripts

Hi Udo: Actually I'm installing some old scripts for a music keyboard
editor from 2011. On this particular machine, I'm using windows 7 and
jaws 14.

*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Udo
Egner-Walter via groups.io
*Sent:* Saturday, March 6, 2021 09:38 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: Installing Jaws scripts

Hi John,

You can find the folder dealing with user scripts this way:

1. Depending on your JAWS installation:

a) If you start JAWS in system tray then press JAWS+J to open JAWS
context menu

b) If you don't start JAWS in system tray then Press JAWS+J to bring
JAWS window to the front and activate the menu by pressing alt key

2. Select "Utilities" and open it

3. Select "Explore Utilities Folder". Now Explorer will open with some
file links.

4. Search for "Explore my settings" file link and activate it. Another
Explorer window will now open containing your settings and user scripts.

If your script file is for a particular application you can copy the
scripts file here. If the JSB file is from an older version of JAWS it's
a good idea to open your application, then press JAWS+0 (0 in the number
row above the chars, not the number block on the right side). This will
open Script Manager with your script file. Press Control+S to compile
the script again, a new JSB will be made from JAWS.

If your script file is not for a particular application or another
script file for an application already exists, you can include your file
with a "USE" command. It this is what you need let me know and I can
describe this in detail.

Good luck with your script file

Udo



     Am 06.03.2021 um 13:15 schrieb John J. Fioravanti, Jr.
     <fioresq1@... <mailto:fioresq1@...>>:

     Hi: perhaps it's my age, but it's been a long time, and I don't
     remember how to install jaws scripts, the JSB JSD and JSS files.
     Could someone walk me through it?

     Thanks.

     *From:*main@jfw.groups.io
     <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io><main@jfw.groups.io
     <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>>*On Behalf Of*Brian Vogel
     *Sent:*Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:55 AM
     *To:*main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
     *Subject:*Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

     On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:36 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:

         There are many reasons why this is the most imaginable offensive
         question.

     -
     Then, Diane, we definitely come from very, very different worlds. I
     can come up with at least 20 questions, off the top of my head, that
     exceed this one in offensiveness.

     There can be people who are being offensive, but I have very clearly
     explained why it is foolish, yes, foolish to assume that without
     additional evidence.

     And I will say, again, that all accessibility is a workaround. In
     the case of screen readers, it is the substitution of audition for
     vision. The two senses are in no way directly equivalent. This
     will always entail compromises and while the experience can be
     substantially the same when it comes to text-based information, it
     will never be for many things that cannot be captured that way.

     And the idea that "light dependence no longer needs to be the only
     way to access information" has been here, now, for quite a while.
     But the fact is, and will always remain, that visual media, and
     anything on a computer besides text is just that, is going to be
     designed primarily with that in mind. That it should be accessible,
     to the maximal extent possible, via other means should be a given in
     good design. But do not delude yourself into thinking that even
     things most ideally designed for maximal accessibility can, or will,
     ever be able to give you "exactly the same information" that the
     sighted get, because they can't.

     And, by the way, my earlier comments regarding tech support was for
     tech support dedicated to screen reader users or users of other
     assistive technology. Most techs not in that arena have no reason
     to know about assistive technology. It is not cost effective to try
     to train every generic help desk person in how to use a screen
     reader, particularly since most larger companies do have dedicated
     AT support and smaller companies have to pick where their money
     goes. If there is not a substantial blind user base of a given
     product, and the maker is a small company down to "mom and pop,"
     they cannot reasonably be expected to have screen reader literate
     tech support.

     And that's not because you're less of a person, or less worthy of
     respect. It's because you are part of a tiny minority in the
     general population and there are limited resources, financial and
     otherwise. I really cannot believe that anyone who is blind does
     not understand this, I really can't. And if that's offensive to
     say, so be it, because it is a fact, and one that is never, ever
     going to change.
     --

     Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

     *One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
     the shore for a very long time.*

     ~ André Gide








moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Cristóbal
 

In all fairness, it’s my wife who reaches out to these companies wen we have an issue and as a seller not as a  buyer. So that may make a difference. I’ll ask her.

As far as Amazon… www.amazon.com/hz/contact-us/accessibility

I recall once even calling their disability line to ask for help on the description for a treadmill I was interested in buying. With the help from the agent who took my call, I determined that it wasn’t the machine that I was looking for.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Cristóbal,

            If you actually have those numbers and know they're current, would you mind sharing (or if you have URLs for the appropriate pages at their support areas)?  eBay in particular is the 20th circle of hell as far as getting any sort of live support in my experience.  It never hurts to have those phone numbers in one's back pocket in case of need.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Tyler Wood
 

Hi,

My $.02.

Part of my job involves meeting with customers and showing them, via my screen and audio, how my screen reader interacts with various content be it a website, an application, or something in between.

People don’t generally encounter blind or visually impaired individuals. Demanding that someone immediately cater to your needs without attempting to educate that person is worse than the person trying to help using visual landmarks. We are the minority. We must help educate, even if we want an issue fixed right away. You can do a great deal to broaden someone’s understanding of what you’re dealing with by attempting to explain where you are on the screen, what your screen reader is speaking, what you expect to happen and what is actually happening. Demanding that you want to speak to someone who can talk to you in nonvisual lingo isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself, because that person will not be able to help the next person who comes along and does not get educated about how to go about conducting themselves with someone who can’t see. It’s a missed opportunity on both sides. You’d be surprised what doesn’t cross someone’s mind and they take for granted.

Is it frustrating? You bet it is. It’s also empowering to help someone understand alternate views on certain aspects of life in general, the issues faced with regards to accessibility and the methods in which they can be alleviated. Hint: yelling, screaming and demanding fixes nothing, apart from making companies less apt to work with us.

I think several also forget that, just because you’re calling the disability support line, doesn’t mean your disability is the only one out there. There are tons of others that are equally misrepresented or unaccounted for.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of E.M. Kirtley
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 05:10 PM, E.M. Kirtley wrote:
I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country
-
Which was beyond the pale.  But it also seemed to be the only thing that was being laser focused on.

These complaints are not rare, and are most often, in my experience, not made by anyone who would be willing to be, literally, that xenophobic.

My only point is that the core of the complaint, not how it was stated, is not without merit.  And I thought I articulated that clearly.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

E.M. Kirtley
 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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