Date   

moderated Re: New Book on Using Zoom with Screen Readers and the iPhone

John Doering
 

Hello:

You can get more info about the book and download it for free at:

http://mosen.org/zoom

 

HTH,

 

 

John Doering
Pricing Analyst

Office: 4147783040 Extn:4063
Mobile:
445 S Curtis Rd West Allis, WI 53214
https://ibvi.org

Industries for the Blind & Visually Impaired accepts no liability for the content of this email, or for the consequences of any actions taken on the basis of the information provided, unless that information is subsequently confirmed in writing. If you are not the intended recipient, you are notified that disclosing, copying, distributing or taking any action in reliance on the contents of this information is strictly prohibited.

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Judith Pelaez via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 6:26 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: New Book on Using Zoom with Screen Readers and the iPhone

 

Hi,

 

That is cool!

However, they’re already was a book to learn not only the iOS app but also the windows app and some of the Mac app.

 

 

Judith Pelaez



On May 4, 2020, at 6:23 PM, David Kingsbury <davidkingsbury77@...> wrote:



Hi all,

 

A colleague of mine at the Carroll Center for the Blind has just written a book on using Zoom with screen readers and VoiceOver on the iPhone. It is the first text-based book written on the topic, and I think it is well-written and quite comprehensive. You can order it for $18 at:

https://carroll.org/product/getting-started-with-zoom-meetings/

 

Regards,

David

 


moderated Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Dan Longmore
 

The reliability of Apple and voiceover is much more consistent with abs and jaws is at this time. If as jaws claims they are the leader they should be setting the standard and reliability with most apps sadly this is not the case


moderated Re: using chrome's spellcheck with jaws

soner
 

Hello, while on  Chrome, press F6 and continue tabbing until you hear the Chrome Menu and press enter.
Then, switch to virtual PC cursor mode, and navigate by heading and locate advance and click spacebar to expand it.
Right Under the advance heading, you will be noticing a new heading titled as languages under which you are going to have
Language
English
Show language options
 Spell check which is a toggled control; that means you can turn it on or off by pressing space.
Once you turn it on, you will have the 2 spelling options, Basic and Enhanced Spelling respectively  which are presented as radio buttons, so that you could make the selection to your liking.

Hope this helps


On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 9:11 PM tina sohl <tinabir80@...> wrote:
Hi. Does anyone know how do do this especially if you're writing an
email in gmail?  can't figure it out.
Thanks




moderated Test mail

Cornelius
 

Hi all,
Just testing to see if my mail go through the list.
 
Thank you.
 


moderated Re: Saying Hello

Glenn / Lenny
 


Howdy, and welcome.
Glenn
 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2020 10:00 PM
Subject: Saying Hello

Hey everyone, new to the group.

Excited for this group's content.
Hope you are all staying safe


moderated Saying Hello

trendingfindings@...
 

Hey everyone, new to the group.

Excited for this group's content.
Hope you are all staying safe


moderated WhatsApp Desktop

Cornelius
 

Hi all,
If there is anyone using WhatsApp desktop on a regular bases, how do you invoke the reply and forward function with JAWS?
Any help is very much appreciated.
 
Thank you.
 
 


moderated Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

And to add to Sieghard Wietzel's latest observations, which are correct, anyone in the IT business knows just how tightly controlled Apple is about its ecosystems overall.  As I put it, if you use Apple products, you are simply expected to become one with the Borg.  Apple does not allow third parties to have access to their app stores at anywhere near the levels that Microsoft has allowed third-parties to interface with Windows (or that Android allows in its ecosystem).  That matters.

You have far greater options in the Windows world as far as available software and the ability to customize the user environment itself.  With that wide range of options you also have a wide range of crap, too.  But when it comes to accessibility issues, I can guarantee you that there are times where it's Microsoft's fault, the application developers' fault, the screen reader developers' fault - singly - and times where at least two of the three or all three have some involvement in less than stellar accessibility.  It's also a fact, particularly when it comes to accessibility on webpages or in web applications, that ongoing changes in actual coding are coming at a rate that no screen reader developer is going to be able to keep up with, and this is not new, and it will not be going away.

In certain arenas, accessibility is always going to be a game of catch-up.  As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be . . .
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


moderated Re: fillable pdf forms?

 

Judy,

 

Well, like most things that can be done in a variety of ways, adobe forms which can be fillable by anyone when done properly can be poorly done or messed up. When they are done properly, they can be filled in by all on a computer.

 

Alan

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Judy
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2020 6:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: fillable pdf forms?

 

Alan, I believe you and appreciate the correction, but I do know sighted people who have had to print out and then  write in themselves and information. I guess it depends upon the kind of pdf or how it’s set up. I personally can’t do anything with them as far as filling them in. Judy & Libby

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Lemly
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 3:25 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: fillable pdf forms?

 

Judy,

 

You are incorrect. Both the sighted and visually impaired can fill out properly designed PDF forms on the computer The IRS uses many PDF forms that can be filled in just fine on one's computer.

 

Alan Lemly

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Judy
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2020 1:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: fillable pdf forms?

 

I don’t think even sighted people can fill out pdf forms on the computer. They have to print them out and fill them in. Judy & Libby

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jenni Kent
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 1:35 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: fillable pdf forms?

 

How are people filling out pdf files these days my computer tries to load edge that a disaster Then I open the file with chrome and well no It won’t let me fill in the file that way either. Any ideas?

 

Jennifer Kent

iMessage: lightsrage@...

Skype: lightsrage

Whatsapp: Ask.

Telegram: ask

Twitter: lights_rage

Facebook: http://facebook.com/lights_rage

 


moderated Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

It is not the responsibility of Jaws alone to make sure it work perfectly with every app, it is also the responsibility of app and program developers (and web developers) to follow standards which insure a better experience for people who use screenreaders. Interestingly enough you rarely hear among iPhone users that they expect Apple to make sure any app one downloads works well with Voiceover, if an app does not it's usually the app developer who is held responsible because Apple has a very clear accessibility framework which, I assume, will result in accessible apps if the developer follows it.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Mladek
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 12:01 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

First I did the download from the site, then simply hit open and install. After this incident, I downloaded and then hit save. Then went to downloads and opened but I will be honest, I've become so anti-2020 version, I only downloaded the 2019 version and all is working properly.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Adrian Spratt
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 9:34 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Are you installing from the website, or first downloading the file and using the file to execute the installation? Installing from the file is safer.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Rick Mladek
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 8:27 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

And so it goes with JFW... I finally took the leap of Faith and installed the latest update to Jaws 2020 yesterday afternoon. The install corrupted something and I have to uninstall all JFW components and reinstall all from scratch. This is the 2nd time in a year that a JFW install has done something as this. The last time, it corrupted my Operating System and the Entire Hard-Drive was toast and had to be wiped clean and all re-installed. Be sure to have a back-up of your hard-drive before you do any JFW installs... Too obvious to be a mere coincidence...


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Durber
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 5:39 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Hello Pat:

You could probably make the change Ceigart mentioned, using the registry editor.

Dave

----- Original Message -----
From: "Patrick Murphy" <murphy.patrick42@...>
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 8:52 PM
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit


Hi,

the group policy editor is only available in windows 10 professional addition.
there is nothing like it in windows 10 home edition.
pat



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Rick Mladek
Sent: Saturday 2 May 2020 18:58
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Sieghard,

Where do we find this setting?

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Sieghard, could you tell us what the group policy item was, or point to the post? I'm curious as to what it might have been.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Sieghard Weitzel
Sent: Saturday 2 May 2020 16:54
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Hello Pat,

I don't wan to minimize the issues you had, but Jaws 2020 has been out for over 6 months and while there will always be certain configurations and systems with various issues, these may not always be 100% the fault of Jaws.
I, for example, had one computer where for over a year I could not use any of the Windows apps like Calculator and in addition to that Jaws would read absolutely nothing in the start menu or the Settings app. I could open Settings and when somebody checked I was told visually everything was fine, I could right arrow and down arrow and focus would move, I could press enter and whatever category I was on opened up and so on, but Jaws was absolutely silent. This was even before Jaws 2020 came out and it was like this with Jaws 2018 and Jaws 2019 and nothing I did including completely uninstalling both versions, deleting all Jaws folders and reinstalling would fix it. At the same time I had another almost identical computer at my business with very similar hardware and all worked fine. Finally I read a post somewhere where another user had the same problem and somehow they either found out or were told to check if a particular item in the group policy editor in Windows 10 Pro was enabled. I checked the same setting and it was disabled on this particular computer, I have no idea why or how, but it was and as soon as I enabled it all worked perfectly. Narrator, by the way, worked just fine in the Settings app, start menu and calculator, it was just Jaws which had the problem and the problem which fixed the issue had nothing to do with Jaws, but was simply a Windows setting.
I mentioned this because it shows how sometimes a problem with Jaws can be extremely specific to one system and be caused by something which is directly not even related to Jaws. I am convinced that if I had wiped the system and reinstalled Windows this would have also fixed the problem, but this happened to be on the PC we use as the main register at my retail store and there is other software on this system which is not quite so easy to reinstall so for the longest time I just put up with it and used Narrator if I wanted to do something in the Settings, I hardly ever use the start menu anyways and when I needed to calculate something I'd just open up Excel instead of using the Calculator. This way I could work around the problem, but it was sure nice when it turned out to be such a simple fix which took me all of 30 seconds to make.

Best regards,
Sieghard

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Patrick Murphy
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 7:01 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Hi,

Not surprised you are having trouble. I myself, only recently, had trouble with installing jaws 2020. I had an authorization problem with windows 10.
Like you, i had to uninstall everything and reinstall everything.
Perhaps freedom scientific should look at this version of jaws again, and take the bugs out of it.
God knows what else is wrong that hasn't been discovered yet.
Pat
-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of ratshtron
Sent: Friday 1 May 2020 16:37
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

I have tried to update to the latest jaws 2020 on a windows 7 32bit system and when I do my system starts rebooting over and over. I get the error that the gdihooks.dll is missing from my computer and to reinstall the software.
I finally got it to work removing all the jaws installations and only installing a 2003 build of 2020. Now, on my laptop running windows 10 had no problems with the 2004.66 update of jaws 2020. go figure!


--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
















.


moderated Re: Format, font, etc. of list messages

 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 09:29 PM, Norma A. Boge wrote:

I thought it was a no-no on a list which is comprised primarily of screen reader users to not top post messages.

            It generally is, unless one is retaining material for context, like I am, to address specific points.  When a topic is long, and there have been multiple participants, and what's bottom posted is pretty much the entirety of the topic to that point it's often nearly impossible to know what's being responded to.

I think it is just courteous to  have list messages be the easiest to read for all of us.

And so do I, but what you appear to believe is always easiest is not an opinion I share.  I've been begging people to select and delete all of the crap that is typically left bottom posted because it makes searching the group archive for the actual original sources an absolute nightmare.  Sadly, that's gained zero traction.

I generally top post for the very reason you mention, but not always, as this reply demonstrates.  I think it would be harder for a later reader, encountering this message in isolation, to have a clue without retention of the specific points I'm responding to in order to retain the context.

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


moderated Format, font, etc. of list messages

Norma A. Boge
 

I can appreciate using a plain font for our messages for those who have some vision.

However, I thought it was a no-no on a list which is comprised primarily of screen reader users to not top post messages.

I think it is just courteous to  have list messages be the easiest to read for all of us.

And, no, I’m not a moderator. Just expressing an opinion.


moderated Re: interesting issue with jaws 2020 and the new microsoft edge

Shan Noyes
 

Just a thought have you tried to expand it to full screen mode with windows key up arrow


On May 4, 2020, at 6:29 PM, james hooper <rockiesfan296@...> wrote:



Greetings all okay I have noticed when using the newest Microsoft edge with jaws if you type something you can’t read character by character and if you backspace it doesn’t read by character any suggestions.,


moderated interesting issue with jaws 2020 and the new microsoft edge

james hooper
 

Greetings all okay I have noticed when using the newest Microsoft edge with jaws if you type something you can’t read character by character and if you backspace it doesn’t read by character any suggestions.,


moderated Re: New Book on Using Zoom with Screen Readers and the iPhone

Judith Pelaez
 

Hi,

That is cool!
However, they’re already was a book to learn not only the iOS app but also the windows app and some of the Mac app.


Judith Pelaez

On May 4, 2020, at 6:23 PM, David Kingsbury <davidkingsbury77@...> wrote:



Hi all,

 

A colleague of mine at the Carroll Center for the Blind has just written a book on using Zoom with screen readers and VoiceOver on the iPhone. It is the first text-based book written on the topic, and I think it is well-written and quite comprehensive. You can order it for $18 at:

https://carroll.org/product/getting-started-with-zoom-meetings/

 

Regards,

David

 


moderated Re: fillable pdf forms?

Judy
 

Alan, I believe you and appreciate the correction, but I do know sighted people who have had to print out and then  write in themselves and information. I guess it depends upon the kind of pdf or how it’s set up. I personally can’t do anything with them as far as filling them in. Judy & Libby

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Alan Lemly
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 3:25 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: fillable pdf forms?

 

Judy,

 

You are incorrect. Both the sighted and visually impaired can fill out properly designed PDF forms on the computer The IRS uses many PDF forms that can be filled in just fine on one's computer.

 

Alan Lemly

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Judy
Sent: Monday, May 04, 2020 1:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: fillable pdf forms?

 

I don’t think even sighted people can fill out pdf forms on the computer. They have to print them out and fill them in. Judy & Libby

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jenni Kent
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 1:35 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: fillable pdf forms?

 

How are people filling out pdf files these days my computer tries to load edge that a disaster Then I open the file with chrome and well no It won’t let me fill in the file that way either. Any ideas?

 

Jennifer Kent

iMessage: lightsrage@...

Skype: lightsrage

Whatsapp: Ask.

Telegram: ask

Twitter: lights_rage

Facebook: http://facebook.com/lights_rage

 


moderated New Book on Using Zoom with Screen Readers and the iPhone

David Kingsbury
 

Hi all,

 

A colleague of mine at the Carroll Center for the Blind has just written a book on using Zoom with screen readers and VoiceOver on the iPhone. It is the first text-based book written on the topic, and I think it is well-written and quite comprehensive. You can order it for $18 at:

https://carroll.org/product/getting-started-with-zoom-meetings/

 

Regards,

David

 


moderated Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Tom Behler
 

Dave:

 

I know we have e-mailed privately about my not being able to do the backup immediately.

 

If you can do that tutorial and share it with others, including me, that would be terrific!

 

Tom Behler

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Durber
Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 5:31 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

Steve:

 

Over the next few days or so, I am going to try and produce an audio tutorial on how I restore a previously backed up image. Once I have done it, I will send it to you, for your comments, before making it available to others.

 

Dave

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 10:03 PM

Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

Do you do this by building a TBI Recovery disk, or do you have an alternate method? I'd be interested to know what that alternate method is, if you use one.

 

On 5/4/2020 2:30 PM, Dave Durber wrote:



Hello Tom:

 

I need to restore an image to one of my computers, which I created using Terabyte's Image for Windows.

 

If you are interested, would you like to join me in a Zoom meeting, and I will show you how I can do that, with no visual assistance. In addition, I will show you, how easy it is to create an image of a system drive for one of my systems, using the abovementioned software.

 

If you would like to do that, You can email me at:

 

 

Dave

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Tom Behler

Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 7:27 PM

Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions regarding accessible backup image software.

 

I am not an advanced assistive technology computer user, so I need to be careful in terms of what I choose to do here.

 

But, these suggestions have given me a lot to consider, and I’m saving them for future reference.

 

I will continue to read additional contributions to this thread with interest, and I hope they help others as well.

 

Dr.  Tom Behler from Michigan

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 01:15 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:

Best fifty bucks you'll ever spend on your computer.

The price is now down to under $40.  Since they give you a 30-day free trial, there's absolutely nothing to lose if you want to try it out.  I'd definitely suggest doing a full system image backup, and then restore, on a non-primary machine if you have a second machine around, just to have had the end to end experience.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


moderated Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

Robert Arrabito
 

Hi Dave and all listers,

 

I recently purchased TeraByte Drive Image Backup and Restore Suite To be used on my Windows 10 PC. I have yet to create an image of my hard drive. I would very much appreciate a copy of your audio tutorial once it is ready for public release. And if it is not asking too much, it would be great if the tutorial can also cover how to create the image. Thank you.

 

 

Regards,

Rob

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dave Durber
Sent: May 4, 2020 5:31 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

Steve:

 

Over the next few days or so, I am going to try and produce an audio tutorial on how I restore a previously backed up image. Once I have done it, I will send it to you, for your comments, before making it available to others.

 

Dave

 

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, May 4, 2020 10:03 PM

Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

Do you do this by building a TBI Recovery disk, or do you have an alternate method? I'd be interested to know what that alternate method is, if you use one.

 

On 5/4/2020 2:30 PM, Dave Durber wrote:



Hello Tom:

 

I need to restore an image to one of my computers, which I created using Terabyte's Image for Windows.

 

If you are interested, would you like to join me in a Zoom meeting, and I will show you how I can do that, with no visual assistance. In addition, I will show you, how easy it is to create an image of a system drive for one of my systems, using the abovementioned software.

 

If you would like to do that, You can email me at:

 

 

Dave

 

----- Original Message -----

 

From: Tom Behler

Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 7:27 PM

Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

Thanks to all of you for your suggestions regarding accessible backup image software.

 

I am not an advanced assistive technology computer user, so I need to be careful in terms of what I choose to do here.

 

But, these suggestions have given me a lot to consider, and I’m saving them for future reference.

 

I will continue to read additional contributions to this thread with interest, and I hope they help others as well.

 

Dr.  Tom Behler from Michigan

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, May 3, 2020 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Accessible System Backup Image software, (WAS) the latest update to jaws 2020 giving me a fit

 

On Sun, May 3, 2020 at 01:15 PM, Steve Matzura wrote:

Best fifty bucks you'll ever spend on your computer.

The price is now down to under $40.  Since they give you a 30-day free trial, there's absolutely nothing to lose if you want to try it out.  I'd definitely suggest doing a full system image backup, and then restore, on a non-primary machine if you have a second machine around, just to have had the end to end experience.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss


moderated Re: fillable pdf forms?

 

On Mon, May 4, 2020 at 06:34 PM, Mich Verrier wrote:
I have found forms that had edit fields that were in pdf but I used adobe and found no way of filling them in using the pc and jaws.
That also happens when JAWS is not involved when some idiot put fillable fields in a PDF and then did something to protect the whole form, including the fillable fields, from being modified.

Not everyone who designs these forms knows all the ins and outs of doing so.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss