Date   

Re: speaking passwords

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 

Well, the way I deal with it now is to keep all my passwords in a password-secure Word document. When I want to enter a password, I copy it to the clipboard, then paste it into the password box. This is how I have circumvented the non-spoken passwords. I don’t like dealing with password managers, because I’ve dealt with them in the past, and they’re not always accessible.

 

Bill White

billwhite92701@...

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Bill Tessore
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:43 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

Hi all,

  The only security risk I can’t imagine eliminating is that of a shoulder surfer. If I were concerned about my password being captured while entering it, I’d have it ready to refer to it in either a braille format (like a braille note taker or a 3x5 card) so a synthesizer won’t announce it, or on some synthesizer enabled device (like a smart phone) and a head set to let me hear the characters and no one else. Yes, it’s a pain to have no feed back during keying, but that’s where practice, patience, and sometimes a pair of ear buds come in handy.  Alternatively, I’d use a password manager and bypass the storage device and headset altogether. But then I prefer to depend on my own skills for access and security.

 

Shabbat shalom,

 

Bill Tessore

 


On Aug 18, 2018, at 1:13 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:08 PM, Bill White wrote:

The security argument is spurious.

No, it's not.   And just for the record I have no direct or indirect ties to VFO.

If something like this exists it is 100% certain, at one point or another, to be accidentally turned on.  That alone is reason enough on security grounds to say, "No."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Bill Tessore
 

Hi all,
  The only security risk I can’t imagine eliminating is that of a shoulder surfer. If I were concerned about my password being captured while entering it, I’d have it ready to refer to it in either a braille format (like a braille note taker or a 3x5 card) so a synthesizer won’t announce it, or on some synthesizer enabled device (like a smart phone) and a head set to let me hear the characters and no one else. Yes, it’s a pain to have no feed back during keying, but that’s where practice, patience, and sometimes a pair of ear buds come in handy.  Alternatively, I’d use a password manager and bypass the storage device and headset altogether. But then I prefer to depend on my own skills for access and security.

Shabbat shalom,

Bill Tessore



On Aug 18, 2018, at 1:13 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:08 PM, Bill White wrote:
The security argument is spurious.
No, it's not.   And just for the record I have no direct or indirect ties to VFO.

If something like this exists it is 100% certain, at one point or another, to be accidentally turned on.  That alone is reason enough on security grounds to say, "No."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 05:08 PM, Cristóbal wrote:

This is probably the kind of stuff that drives VFO engineers and programmers crazy.

Again, this is nothing more than a solution in search of a problem.

You and I are on the same page.

It would make them all the crazier because this is definitely not a programming issue; it could be done, easily.  It is about design philosophy and concern for target markets.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Cristóbal
 

This is probably the kind of stuff that drives VFO engineers and programmers crazy.

Again, this is nothing more than a solution in search of a problem.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:51 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:48 PM, Don H wrote:

It is so nice that FS is so worried about us.

The fact that you think this is concern for the user, rather than concern for their market, which would not accept that feature, is interesting.  VFO is a business and JAWS is a commercial product.  They've got more than one constituency whose needs and desires they must consider.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:48 PM, Don H wrote:
It is so nice that FS is so worried about us.
The fact that you think this is concern for the user, rather than concern for their market, which would not accept that feature, is interesting.  VFO is a business and JAWS is a commercial product.  They've got more than one constituency whose needs and desires they must consider.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:34 PM, Bill White wrote:
By the way, Brian, we’re not asking that the passwords be shown on the screen, only key echoed, the same way keys are echoed when we have JAWS set to echo characters.
I understand precisely what's being asked for, and it should not be provided if one has a scintilla of concern for keeping passwords secure.

After 35 years in IT, and witnessing firsthand all the things that "can't happen" and "shouldn't happen," particularly when there is the high potential for human error, one puts in place roadblocks to precisely that kind of error.

Anyone, and I do mean anyone, should be able to remember their own chosen password or use a password manager.

The convenience of hearing one's keystrokes echoed with the letters struck for a password field cannot be justified, though as I've witnessed, repeatedly, many will try.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Don H
 

It is so nice that FS is so worried about us. Guess GW and NVDA are not so worried as they both had or have the options to echo the keys when entering passwords.

On 8/18/2018 3:34 PM, Bill White wrote:
By the way, Brian, we’re not asking that the passwords be shown on the screen, only key echoed, the same way keys are echoed when we have JAWS set to echo characters.
Bill White
billwhite92701@dslextreme.com
*From:*main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:13 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: speaking passwords
On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:08 PM, Bill White wrote:
The security argument is spurious.
No, it's not.   And just for the record I have no direct or indirect ties to VFO.
If something like this exists it is 100% certain, at one point or another, to be accidentally turned on.  That alone is reason enough on security grounds to say, "No."
--
Brian **-**Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
//The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.//
          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 

By the way, Brian, we’re not asking that the passwords be shown on the screen, only key echoed, the same way keys are echoed when we have JAWS set to echo characters.

 

Bill White

billwhite92701@...

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 1:13 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:08 PM, Bill White wrote:

The security argument is spurious.

No, it's not.   And just for the record I have no direct or indirect ties to VFO.

If something like this exists it is 100% certain, at one point or another, to be accidentally turned on.  That alone is reason enough on security grounds to say, "No."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 04:08 PM, Bill White wrote:
The security argument is spurious.
No, it's not.   And just for the record I have no direct or indirect ties to VFO.

If something like this exists it is 100% certain, at one point or another, to be accidentally turned on.  That alone is reason enough on security grounds to say, "No."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 

Hi, Brian. There are other options in JAWS, such as, Use JAWS at Logon for All Users, which are subject to administrator approval. If VFO made the Voice Passwords option the same way, security would not be a problem, because, unless the person was administrator, they could not change to Voiced or spoken passwords. The security argument is spurious.

 

Bill White

billwhite92701@...

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:52 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:44 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:

To speak or not to speak passwords should be an option the end user should be able to enable or disable.

 

You can say this as many times as you like.   But it is utterly untrue if one is taking the idea of security generally seriously and wanting to put out a product that a very great many third parties in the business and government worlds would be apoplectic were it to be used.

It's not all about you (and that's for any you, not you, Peter Donahue).  Your convenience and desires are far from the only consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Don H
 

You sure can tell the people who have been brain washed by FS.

On 8/18/2018 2:52 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:44 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:
To speak or not to speak passwords should be an option the end user
should be able to enable or disable.
You can say this as many times as you like.   But it is utterly untrue if one is taking the idea of security generally seriously and wanting to put out a product that a very great many third parties in the business and government worlds would be apoplectic were it to be used.
It's not all about you (and that's for any you, not you, Peter Donahue).  Your convenience and desires are far from the only consideration.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
/The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment./
          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Don H
 

Since in such a situation you would probably have a set of headphones attached so everyone would not be bothered by the noise your idea doesn't hold water.

On 8/18/2018 2:31 PM, Angel wrote:

I also believe, if there is ever the idea given to sighted employers that we blind individuals might required spoken pass words; they will have another excuse not to hire us.  They will believe spoken pass words will further compromise their companies security.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Brian Vogel <mailto:britechguy@gmail.com>
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Sent:* Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:03 PM
*Subject:* Re: speaking passwords
On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 02:50 AM, netbat66 wrote:
because sighted people can see the keyboard. we can not.
So?  Most people do not "hunt and peck" type, whether passwords or
anything else.  They're not looking at the keyboard in the vast
majority of cases.  We (as I am part of the group "sighted people")
fat finger our passwords all the time and have to re-enter them.
As far as I'm concerned, VFO has it right.  Passwords should never
be spoken, letter by letter, as they are typed in, anywhere.  A user
is expected to remember them or use a password manager, and most of
those can shoot you right to the webpage and enter the login id and
password both, if conventional coding methods, rather than pop-up
sign-in boxes, are used.
Speaking password character entry entirely defeats the intention of
passwords to begin with.
--
Brian *-*Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134
/The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in
the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting
moment./
       ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:50 PM, Bill White wrote:
I would never advocate using spoken passwords in a public or employment situation. Even if we are employed at home, if we are on the phone with someone, they could hear our spoken password.
The problem being, Bill, while yours is a sensible position having this be a user toggle is, from a computer security assessment perspective, an accident waiting to happen.  And it would.

VFO is erring on the side of caution in a situation where caution is desirable, nay, necessary.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 03:44 PM, Peter Donahue wrote:

To speak or not to speak passwords should be an option the end user should be able to enable or disable.

 

You can say this as many times as you like.   But it is utterly untrue if one is taking the idea of security generally seriously and wanting to put out a product that a very great many third parties in the business and government worlds would be apoplectic were it to be used.

It's not all about you (and that's for any you, not you, Peter Donahue).  Your convenience and desires are far from the only consideration.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 

Hi, Angel. We don’t require spoken passwords. It is just a convenience when we are using our own computers at home, and there is no one there to intercept them. I would never advocate using spoken passwords in a public or employment situation. Even if we are employed at home, if we are on the phone with someone, they could hear our spoken password.

 

Bill White

billwhite92701@...

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angel
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 12:31 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

I also believe, if there is ever the idea given to sighted employers that we blind individuals might required spoken pass words; they will have another excuse not to hire us.  They will believe spoken pass words will further compromise their companies security.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:03 PM

Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 02:50 AM, netbat66 wrote:

because sighted people can see the keyboard. we can not.

So?  Most people do not "hunt and peck" type, whether passwords or anything else.  They're not looking at the keyboard in the vast majority of cases.  We (as I am part of the group "sighted people") fat finger our passwords all the time and have to re-enter them.

As far as I'm concerned, VFO has it right.  Passwords should never be spoken, letter by letter, as they are typed in, anywhere.  A user is expected to remember them or use a password manager, and most of those can shoot you right to the webpage and enter the login id and password both, if conventional coding methods, rather than pop-up sign-in boxes, are used.

Speaking password character entry entirely defeats the intention of passwords to begin with.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Peter Donahue
 

Hello everyone,

 

                To speak or not to speak passwords should be an option the end user should be able to enable or disable.

 

Peter Donahue

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Angel
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:31 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

I also believe, if there is ever the idea given to sighted employers that we blind individuals might required spoken pass words; they will have another excuse not to hire us.  They will believe spoken pass words will further compromise their companies security.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:03 PM

Subject: Re: speaking passwords

 

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 02:50 AM, netbat66 wrote:

because sighted people can see the keyboard. we can not.

So?  Most people do not "hunt and peck" type, whether passwords or anything else.  They're not looking at the keyboard in the vast majority of cases.  We (as I am part of the group "sighted people") fat finger our passwords all the time and have to re-enter them.

As far as I'm concerned, VFO has it right.  Passwords should never be spoken, letter by letter, as they are typed in, anywhere.  A user is expected to remember them or use a password manager, and most of those can shoot you right to the webpage and enter the login id and password both, if conventional coding methods, rather than pop-up sign-in boxes, are used.

Speaking password character entry entirely defeats the intention of passwords to begin with.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: speaking passwords

Angel
 


I also believe, if there is ever the idea given to sighted employers that we blind individuals might required spoken pass words; they will have another excuse not to hire us.  They will believe spoken pass words will further compromise their companies security.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 2:03 PM
Subject: Re: speaking passwords

On Sat, Aug 18, 2018 at 02:50 AM, netbat66 wrote:
because sighted people can see the keyboard. we can not.
So?  Most people do not "hunt and peck" type, whether passwords or anything else.  They're not looking at the keyboard in the vast majority of cases.  We (as I am part of the group "sighted people") fat finger our passwords all the time and have to re-enter them.

As far as I'm concerned, VFO has it right.  Passwords should never be spoken, letter by letter, as they are typed in, anywhere.  A user is expected to remember them or use a password manager, and most of those can shoot you right to the webpage and enter the login id and password both, if conventional coding methods, rather than pop-up sign-in boxes, are used.

Speaking password character entry entirely defeats the intention of passwords to begin with.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Home, 64-Bit, Version 1803, Build 17134  

    The real art of conversation is not only to say the right thing in the right place but to leave unsaid the wrong thing at the tempting moment.

          ~ Dorothy Nevill


Re: programs for opening . rar files

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 

I use 7-zip to open rar files. If you don't have the latest 7-zip program, you may not be able to open all rar files.

Bill White
billwhite92701@dslextreme.com

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Jed Barton
Sent: Saturday, August 18, 2018 11:11 AM
To: main
Subject: programs for opening . rar files

Hey guys,

What's the best program for dealing with .rar files.


Re: programs for opening . rar files

Chris
 

You may find this hard to believe but WinRAR isn’t too bad

Or if you want a free option you cant go wrong with 7-zip

 

Hope that helps

 

 

 

From: Jed Barton
Sent: 18 August 2018 19:10
To: main
Subject: programs for opening . rar files

 

Hey guys,

 

What's the best program for dealing with .rar files.

 

 

 


Re: programs for opening . rar files

Steve Matzura
 

Best is a subjective qualifier; what's best for me might not be best for thee. That having been said, WinZIP, 7Zip, and of course Win-Rar,are all good and all accessible.

On 8/18/2018 2:10 PM, Jed Barton wrote:
Hey guys,

What's the best program for dealing with .rar files.