Date   

Re: A Modest Proposal

Matt Dierckens <matt.dierckens@...>
 

no, I don't walk around with the IPhone glued to my ear, as you said. However, if I'm on the train or the bus and need to send an email, then yeah I'll use it with the BT keyboard. and yes, it is a fully tactile keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my mac
Twitter: matt692
msn: matt692@live.com
skype: blindman3221

On 2012-09-24, at 3:09 PM, "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com> wrote:

Hi,
Now out will come a few people to the rescue broadening the definition of
"on-the-go".
As I don't email in that condition let me just guess, um, how about on the
bus, the train, in a car, taxi etc. etc.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:53 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to send
emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued to
one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just
asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a
sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind
person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the
contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dierckens" <matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the IPhone
to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple
Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or
home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad.
With a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience
and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor
in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function
of a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a
device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please
don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone.
To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system
such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean
that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands. Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally
incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab
agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train
clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers,
not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a Mac
,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen
readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac, for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non petitioner,
to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed
version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
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Re: A Modest Proposal

John Martyn
 

I know it's not normally my place to say something in such a debate,
however; I believe blind people can do just whatever they please. If you're
good enough with your device, then you can do what you put your mind to. I
wouldn't be in my shoes now if I figured anything would be impossible. I
have plenty of time to walk around and use my iDevices. I'm not crossing the
street while using one, but I can't say I haven't used one while walking
around busy streets that are familiar.
Speaking about JAWS compatibility lately and the future of it does in fact
take a group of people voicing themselves. All it takes is a little
organization and the mass popularity can make FS realize that some features
need work. The great thing about JAWS is that you can program apps to
behave. I realize not everyone will get into the scripting language, but it
is definitely one of the most important features of JAWS and will come to
prove this very soon. I plan on working on JAWS scripts as long as it is
around.
John Martyn

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:41 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Well, unless you are lucky or rich enough to travel to work by taxi or
chauffeur-driven limo, it is totally impractical for a blind person to use a
mobile device on a bus or train, because they are distracting and could make
the user a potential target for a mugger. Here in New York City, I-device
theft is the fastest-growing crime. Besides, I-devices don't work on
underground portions of subway and commuter train routes.

Gerald



Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Now out will come a few people to the rescue broadening the definition of
"on-the-go".
As I don't email in that condition let me just guess, um, how about on the
bus, the train, in a car, taxi etc. etc.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:53 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to
send
emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued
to
one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just
asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a
sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind
person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the
contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dierckens" <matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the
IPhone
to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple
Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or
home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad.
With a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience
and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor
in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function
of a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can
ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't
even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically
impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard.
Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a
device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please
don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone.
To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of
schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system
such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean
that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands.
Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally
incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab
agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train
clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers,
not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a
Mac
,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen
readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that
we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do
anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner,
to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed
version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

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Re: A Modest Proposal

Gerald Levy
 

Let me get this straight. You walk around with a mobile device in one hand and a bluetoot keyboard in the other hand. So I guess you need to grow a third hand to type on the keyboard and a fourth hand to hold your white cane or guide dog harness. How do you grow an extra pair of hands? So it seems to me that using a mobile device with a bluetoot keyboard is not very practical for a blind person on the go.

Gerald

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:38 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Even sighted people have to deal with these hazards. Just get a keyboard for
the phone and away you go. And yes, one can become pretty proficient with a
bluetooth keyboard for a cell phone. Don't forget the whole crackberry
condition. Even on my old HTC TYTN with it's slide out keyboard, I could
shoot off texts with minimal effort. There are some very nice keyboards for
the complete touch screen smartphones now that have only improved the
experience.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:14 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

boy Gerald, you assume that your situation applies to everyone else's. *LOL*
But yes, these things are distracting, not just for the blind. Ever heard of
distracted drivers not looking at the road while texting, and speeding along
at 70 mph?



At 04:52 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote:

Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to
send emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an
IPhone glued to one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the
other hand is just asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a
greatmobile device for a sighted person, it can be a potential
distracting nightmare for a blind person. Sorry, but no blind person ,
no matter what they claim to the contrary, can safely walk around and
use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dierckens"
<matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the
IPhone to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy"
<bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store
notes and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a
simple Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at
work or home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal"
<crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional
note taker. I think he also received a Braille display (I don't know
which model) and if memory serves, everything came out cheaper than
the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from
Humanware and after testing it out, I was more sold on the
flexibility of the iPad. With a keyboard instead of the Apex. I also
bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display
and phone is still less than the note taker. When my acquaintance
asked me for my opinion when he was working with his case manager, I
commented to him my experience and he pitched it to his rep and low
and behold... He received what he requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in
my opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially
when you factor in the cost of all devices. That's not even taking
into consideration the various accessibility related apps that can
often replace the function of a blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these
agencies are largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No
I-device can ever completely replace a computer. They are designed
to be mobile devices, not devices that can be used in a typical work
environment. They don't even have tactile keyboards just
touchscreens, so it is physically impossible to type on them as fast
as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can you compose and
print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for
such a device when you can accomplish the same thing with a
telephone? And please don't tell me about all those "cool" apps
available for the IPad and IPhone. To me, the I-devices are little
more than overpriced status symbols whose functionality can be
duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on
both platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot
of schools for LD students who (in the old days) might have used a
PC-based system such as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as
an alternative to Windows computers for their clients. Why?
Because it would mean that their technology trainers would have to
be familiar with two totally different operating systems, program
sets and keyboard commands. Plus, the rehab center would have to
purchase and maintain two totally incompatible groups of hardware.
That costs a lot of money, which most rehab agencies simply don't
have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows
computers, not Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology
trainer at the rehab center, and his attitude was that if I wanted
to learn how to use a Mac , I would have to do it on my own. This
particular agency has had a long-standing relationship with Dell
and purchases all their hardware from them. So naturally, their
clients only receive training on Windows machines. To their
credit, they did offer me a choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I
was totally unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm
still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population
of users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in
the first place, we need to insist to those who are doing the
purchasing that we want something else. If some agency is buying
computer equipment for blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand
per computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue
source (fill in agency names here) and recommend that they
support another competing product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone
to do anything. It just underscores how serious the problem has
become to the people Freedom Scientific Depends on most,
ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner, to sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable,
bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number
of SMAs left or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest for persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond
what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much
anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation
that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going
to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD
NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING
OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT
INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is
privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by
applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the
sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

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Re: A Modest Proposal

Dave...
 

DJ,

Thanks for your incisive and astounding comment. Keep them coming.

Dave Carlson
Tastefully composed and launched near the Pacific Ocean using a Dell
Latitude E6520, JAWS 13.0.718, and Windows 7 Professional 32-bit

----- Original Message -----
From: "DJ" <grouloc@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 15:47
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Why wouldn't state agencies consider such devices? Well, because Gerald
Levy doesn't think blind people should use them on the job, off the job, or
on the go. LOL!


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Cristobal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:30 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

I have four separate email accounts on my iPad (one personal and 3
business), Google Voice and Skype for textign and making calls, note taking
apps, video and audio recording capabilities apps for reading of books be it
in mp3, daisy, ebooks, etc. Other accessibility related apps include
Learning Ally, NFB Newsline color identification apps (though not the best
with an iPad, can work in a pinch) and so on. Not to mention everything else
one can do with the tablet that is impossible with just a note taker by
itself for example. When I was doing my homework on whether to get the Apex,
I was talking to a rep about it and even though it was their job to talk up
the product, their arguements just didn't convince me. Yes, those types of
blindness targetted devices may have in some aspects more designs and
features taylored to a visually impaired user, but the idea of dropping
nearly $6,000.00 on something just because it has a braille display built
into it did not convince me in the least. Everything the Apex had, the iPad
already came with or I could find an app to get that particular feature and
more often than not, the app was simply better.

Having the tablet frees me from being tied to my computer in many instances.
The iPhone too is a great example of a swiss army knife of accessible
goodness. All the apps mentioned above and with a better camera makes other
apps like money identification, color identification, scanning text to
speech, taking photos of canned or boxed items and tagging them with a voice
lable for later reference, barcode reader, GPS and so on.

Again, even if one were to purchase just the phone unlocked at $800.00 or so
for a larger model, that's a lot less than what it would cost to buy all the
various accessible gizmos to replicate similar actions. I'm completely blind
so all the low vision stuff is irrelevent to me, but for partially sighted
folks, the iPad (especially the newest model) can be used with its camera as
a cctv along with all the other magnification features it's got built into
it. So, again, for $800.00 for a larger storage iPad, iPod or iPhone for
that matter, how is that not a great deal and why wouldn't state agencies
consider such devices? Numbers don't lie. These devices are in many
instances a solid replacement for a bundle of all those other things at much
less of an overall cost.

I'm glad my acquaintance was able to get what he wanted and not get talked
into a crazy priced note taker which is basically a stripped down netbook
with braille display just because of whatever cosy relationship vendors may
have with agencies.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes and
contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note
taker. I think he also received a Braille display (I don't know which
model) and if memory serves, everything came out cheaper than the note
taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the
iPad. With
a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the
Apex would have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and
phone is still less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me
for my opinion when he was working with his case manager, I commented
to him my experience and he pitched it to his rep and low and
behold... He received what he requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in
my opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when
you factor in the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into
consideration the various accessibility related apps that can often
replace the function of a blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these
agencies are largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No
I-device can ever completely replace a computer. They are designed to
be mobile devices, not devices that can be used in a typical work
environment. They don't even have tactile keyboards just
touchscreens, so it is physically impossible to type on them as fast
as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can you compose and
print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such
a device when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And
please don't tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the
IPad and IPhone. To me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced
status symbols whose functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on
both platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of
schools for LD students who (in the old days) might have used a
PC-based system such as K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as
an alternative to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because
it would mean that their technology trainers would have to be
familiar with two totally different operating systems, program sets
and keyboard commands. Plus, the rehab center would have to purchase
and maintain two totally incompatible groups of hardware. That costs
a lot of money, which most rehab agencies simply don't have.
Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients for jobs in the
business world which relies heavily on Windows computers, not Macs.
I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a
Mac , I would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had
a long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their
hardware from them. So naturally, their clients only receive
training on Windows machines. To their credit, they did offer me a
choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still
glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing
that we want something else. If some agency is buying computer
equipment for blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to
do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of
customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner, to sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable,
bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs left or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest for persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy
a screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED
OR WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

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Re: A Modest Proposal

shawn.keen@...
 

Untrue iPads don't require any service. 0 per month.

Sent from my iPhone

On Sep 24, 2012, at 5:34 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


This would all make a lot of sense except for one little detail that I-device users like to ignore. Using an IPhone or IPad will cost at least $50 per month and in some cases, even more. That's on top of the $30 to $50 per month you pay for Internet service. To buy an IPhone, you have to make at least a $1500 commitment over two years. These same people moan and bitch about the high cost of JAWS, yet willingly shell out big bucks for an I-device and claim that it is a bargain. They apparently have a distorted sense of priorities.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


I have four separate email accounts on my iPad (one personal and 3
business), Google Voice and Skype for textign and making calls, note taking
apps, video and audio recording capabilities apps for reading of books be it
in mp3, daisy, ebooks, etc. Other accessibility related apps include
Learning Ally, NFB Newsline color identification apps (though not the best
with an iPad, can work in a pinch) and so on. Not to mention everything else
one can do with the tablet that is impossible with just a note taker by
itself for example. When I was doing my homework on whether to get the Apex,
I was talking to a rep about it and even though it was their job to talk up
the product, their arguements just didn't convince me. Yes, those types of
blindness targetted devices may have in some aspects more designs and
features taylored to a visually impaired user, but the idea of dropping
nearly $6,000.00 on something just because it has a braille display built
into it did not convince me in the least. Everything the Apex had, the iPad
already came with or I could find an app to get that particular feature and
more often than not, the app was simply better.

Having the tablet frees me from being tied to my computer in many instances.
The iPhone too is a great example of a swiss army knife of accessible
goodness. All the apps mentioned above and with a better camera makes other
apps like money identification, color identification, scanning text to
speech, taking photos of canned or boxed items and tagging them with a voice
lable for later reference, barcode reader, GPS and so on.

Again, even if one were to purchase just the phone unlocked at $800.00 or so
for a larger model, that's a lot less than what it would cost to buy all the
various accessible gizmos to replicate similar actions. I'm completely blind
so all the low vision stuff is irrelevent to me, but for partially sighted
folks, the iPad (especially the newest model) can be used with its camera as
a cctv along with all the other magnification features it's got built into
it. So, again, for $800.00 for a larger storage iPad, iPod or iPhone for
that matter, how is that not a great deal and why wouldn't state agencies
consider such devices? Numbers don't lie. These devices are in many
instances a solid replacement for a bundle of all those other things at much
less of an overall cost.

I'm glad my acquaintance was able to get what he wanted and not get talked
into a crazy priced note taker which is basically a stripped down netbook
with braille display just because of whatever cosy relationship vendors may
have with agencies.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes and
contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad. With
a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display. Everything
in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function of
a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone. To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands. Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers, not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a Mac ,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac, for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be willing
to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non petitioner, to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: A Modest Proposal

Drew Hunthausen
 

actually
your wrong here. The i-devices don't cost any more to use than do the
adaptive Braille note takers or regular computers. The reason that someone
might pay a monthly fee for an ipad is because they have so much allowded
data that can be use anywhere. If they don't want to use their devices
outside of a wireless network it does not cost them anything. By the way a
couple of the new Braille note takers like the Braille sense U2 and one
other one are able to use the 3g networks which also demands a monthly data
fee from the wireless providers.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:34 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


This would all make a lot of sense except for one little detail that
I-device users like to ignore. Using an IPhone or IPad will cost at least
$50 per month and in some cases, even more. That's on top of the $30 to $50
per month you pay for Internet service. To buy an IPhone, you have to make
at least a $1500 commitment over two years. These same people moan and
bitch about the high cost of JAWS, yet willingly shell out big bucks for an
I-device and claim that it is a bargain. They apparently have a distorted
sense of priorities.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


I have four separate email accounts on my iPad (one personal and 3
business), Google Voice and Skype for textign and making calls, note
taking
apps, video and audio recording capabilities apps for reading of books be
it
in mp3, daisy, ebooks, etc. Other accessibility related apps include
Learning Ally, NFB Newsline color identification apps (though not the best
with an iPad, can work in a pinch) and so on. Not to mention everything
else
one can do with the tablet that is impossible with just a note taker by
itself for example. When I was doing my homework on whether to get the
Apex,
I was talking to a rep about it and even though it was their job to talk
up
the product, their arguements just didn't convince me. Yes, those types of
blindness targetted devices may have in some aspects more designs and
features taylored to a visually impaired user, but the idea of dropping
nearly $6,000.00 on something just because it has a braille display built
into it did not convince me in the least. Everything the Apex had, the
iPad
already came with or I could find an app to get that particular feature
and
more often than not, the app was simply better.

Having the tablet frees me from being tied to my computer in many
instances.
The iPhone too is a great example of a swiss army knife of accessible
goodness. All the apps mentioned above and with a better camera makes
other
apps like money identification, color identification, scanning text to
speech, taking photos of canned or boxed items and tagging them with a
voice
lable for later reference, barcode reader, GPS and so on.

Again, even if one were to purchase just the phone unlocked at $800.00 or
so
for a larger model, that's a lot less than what it would cost to buy all
the
various accessible gizmos to replicate similar actions. I'm completely
blind
so all the low vision stuff is irrelevent to me, but for partially sighted
folks, the iPad (especially the newest model) can be used with its camera
as
a cctv along with all the other magnification features it's got built into
it. So, again, for $800.00 for a larger storage iPad, iPod or iPhone for
that matter, how is that not a great deal and why wouldn't state agencies
consider such devices? Numbers don't lie. These devices are in many
instances a solid replacement for a bundle of all those other things at
much
less of an overall cost.

I'm glad my acquaintance was able to get what he wanted and not get talked
into a crazy priced note taker which is basically a stripped down netbook
with braille display just because of whatever cosy relationship vendors
may
have with agencies.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and
contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad.
With
a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display. Everything
in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience
and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function of
a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a
device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please
don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone.
To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean
that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands. Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally
incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab
agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers,
not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a Mac
,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen
readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac, for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be willing
to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non petitioner,
to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed
version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
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Re: A Modest Proposal

Gerald Levy
 

This would all make a lot of sense except for one little detail that I-device users like to ignore. Using an IPhone or IPad will cost at least $50 per month and in some cases, even more. That's on top of the $30 to $50 per month you pay for Internet service. To buy an IPhone, you have to make at least a $1500 commitment over two years. These same people moan and bitch about the high cost of JAWS, yet willingly shell out big bucks for an I-device and claim that it is a bargain. They apparently have a distorted sense of priorities.

Gerald

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:30 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


I have four separate email accounts on my iPad (one personal and 3
business), Google Voice and Skype for textign and making calls, note taking
apps, video and audio recording capabilities apps for reading of books be it
in mp3, daisy, ebooks, etc. Other accessibility related apps include
Learning Ally, NFB Newsline color identification apps (though not the best
with an iPad, can work in a pinch) and so on. Not to mention everything else
one can do with the tablet that is impossible with just a note taker by
itself for example. When I was doing my homework on whether to get the Apex,
I was talking to a rep about it and even though it was their job to talk up
the product, their arguements just didn't convince me. Yes, those types of
blindness targetted devices may have in some aspects more designs and
features taylored to a visually impaired user, but the idea of dropping
nearly $6,000.00 on something just because it has a braille display built
into it did not convince me in the least. Everything the Apex had, the iPad
already came with or I could find an app to get that particular feature and
more often than not, the app was simply better.

Having the tablet frees me from being tied to my computer in many instances.
The iPhone too is a great example of a swiss army knife of accessible
goodness. All the apps mentioned above and with a better camera makes other
apps like money identification, color identification, scanning text to
speech, taking photos of canned or boxed items and tagging them with a voice
lable for later reference, barcode reader, GPS and so on.

Again, even if one were to purchase just the phone unlocked at $800.00 or so
for a larger model, that's a lot less than what it would cost to buy all the
various accessible gizmos to replicate similar actions. I'm completely blind
so all the low vision stuff is irrelevent to me, but for partially sighted
folks, the iPad (especially the newest model) can be used with its camera as
a cctv along with all the other magnification features it's got built into
it. So, again, for $800.00 for a larger storage iPad, iPod or iPhone for
that matter, how is that not a great deal and why wouldn't state agencies
consider such devices? Numbers don't lie. These devices are in many
instances a solid replacement for a bundle of all those other things at much
less of an overall cost.

I'm glad my acquaintance was able to get what he wanted and not get talked
into a crazy priced note taker which is basically a stripped down netbook
with braille display just because of whatever cosy relationship vendors may
have with agencies.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes and
contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad. With
a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display. Everything
in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function of
a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone. To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands. Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers, not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a Mac ,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac, for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be willing
to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non petitioner, to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

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09/23/12

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Re: A Modest Proposal

Drew Hunthausen
 

I agree with you, but where do we draw the line. It is also distracting to
eat while walking or driving not to mention listening to the radio. We can't
make everything illegal.
We have to trust that people have at least some sense and can do what's
right. This is my last post on this.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:43 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


That's why "distracted walking" should be made a punishable offense like
distracted driving. As unsafe as it is for a sighted person to walk around
while using a mobile device, it is even more dangerous for a blind person to
do so.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Hunthausen" <dhunthausen@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:11 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


That goes with adaptive devices as well. People with full sight can't go
around sending e-mails or surfing the web while walking either. It doesn't
mean they don't do it, but they run into just as many people as we do.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:53 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to
send
emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued
to
one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just
asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a
sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind
person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the
contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dierckens" <matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the
IPhone
to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple
Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or
home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad.
With a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience
and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor
in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function
of a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can
ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't
even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically
impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard.
Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a
device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please
don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone.
To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of
schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system
such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean
that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands.
Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally
incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab
agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train
clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers,
not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a
Mac
,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen
readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that
we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do
anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner,
to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed
version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12


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Re: A Modest Proposal

Drew Hunthausen
 

This has nothing to do with being blind/ disabled. I-devices as well as any
cell phone and mobile devices don't work well on subways. These devices are
also distracting for anyone to use; no different than Braille note takers
made specifically for the blind.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:41 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Well, unless you are lucky or rich enough to travel to work by taxi or
chauffeur-driven limo, it is totally impractical for a blind person to use a
mobile device on a bus or train, because they are distracting and could make
the user a potential target for a mugger. Here in New York City, I-device
theft is the fastest-growing crime. Besides, I-devices don't work on
underground portions of subway and commuter train routes.

Gerald



Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Now out will come a few people to the rescue broadening the definition of
"on-the-go".
As I don't email in that condition let me just guess, um, how about on the
bus, the train, in a car, taxi etc. etc.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:53 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to
send
emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued
to
one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just
asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a
sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind
person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the
contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dierckens" <matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the
IPhone
to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple
Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or
home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad.
With a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience
and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor
in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function
of a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can
ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't
even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically
impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard.
Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a
device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please
don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone.
To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of
schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system
such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean
that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands.
Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally
incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab
agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train
clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers,
not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a
Mac
,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen
readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that
we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do
anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner,
to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed
version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
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attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
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--------------------------------------------------
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Re: administrator in windows 7

Soronel Haetir
 

If anything I would increase it to 100%, but I don't think that would
do anything about your instant issue.

If you are comfortable working from the command prompt, you could type
'cmd' into the search bar, then bring up the context menu and select
'run as administrator' and perform your file copy from there.

On 9/24/12, Stan Holdeman <sholdeman@msn.com> wrote:
Soronel: I got into something about UAC settings. Mine are set at 67 percent

whatever that means. Do you think I need to adjust this?


Stan


-----Original Message-----
From: Soronel Haetir
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:24 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: administrator in windows 7

Dunno what to tell you, I would expect either the UAC chime or that a
UAC request is waiting in the background somewhere.

On 9/24/12, Stan Holdeman <sholdeman@msn.com> wrote:
Soronel: Yes, it is as you say except that when I hit continue the
dialogue

is closed but nothing else happens.

Stan


-----Original Message-----
From: Soronel Haetir
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:42 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: administrator in windows 7

You probably already have admin rights but were just running with the
normal user token rather than elevated. Didn't the window telling
you there was a problem also have something like a Continue button?
That will usually trigger the UAC elevation sequence and after hitting
Yes there then you can perform whatever operation you were attempting.

On 9/23/12, Stan Holdeman <sholdeman@msn.com> wrote:
Listers: When I tried to paste my seasoned jaws 13 dictionary file
)default.jdf) from my old machine into my new windows 7 jaws
13/settings/enu
folder on my new machine, I was told I must have administrative
permission
to do this.

I guess this means that I must set up an administrator account unless
there
is some way around it that I don't know about.

Are there any good suggestions about setting this up to have the least
hassle at log in, etc.?

Thanks for your help.

Stan


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Re: A Modest Proposal

Chris Smart <csmart8@...>
 

I have a slate and stylus in the drawer here if Gerald wants it.



At 05:47 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Why wouldn't state agencies consider such devices? Well, because Gerald
Levy doesn't think blind people should use them on the job, off the job, or
on the go. LOL!


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Cristobal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:30 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

I have four separate email accounts on my iPad (one personal and 3
business), Google Voice and Skype for textign and making calls, note taking
apps, video and audio recording capabilities apps for reading of books be it
in mp3, daisy, ebooks, etc. Other accessibility related apps include
Learning Ally, NFB Newsline color identification apps (though not the best
with an iPad, can work in a pinch) and so on. Not to mention everything else
one can do with the tablet that is impossible with just a note taker by
itself for example. When I was doing my homework on whether to get the Apex,
I was talking to a rep about it and even though it was their job to talk up
the product, their arguements just didn't convince me. Yes, those types of
blindness targetted devices may have in some aspects more designs and
features taylored to a visually impaired user, but the idea of dropping
nearly $6,000.00 on something just because it has a braille display built
into it did not convince me in the least. Everything the Apex had, the iPad
already came with or I could find an app to get that particular feature and
more often than not, the app was simply better.

Having the tablet frees me from being tied to my computer in many instances.
The iPhone too is a great example of a swiss army knife of accessible
goodness. All the apps mentioned above and with a better camera makes other
apps like money identification, color identification, scanning text to
speech, taking photos of canned or boxed items and tagging them with a voice
lable for later reference, barcode reader, GPS and so on.

Again, even if one were to purchase just the phone unlocked at $800.00 or so
for a larger model, that's a lot less than what it would cost to buy all the
various accessible gizmos to replicate similar actions. I'm completely blind
so all the low vision stuff is irrelevent to me, but for partially sighted
folks, the iPad (especially the newest model) can be used with its camera as
a cctv along with all the other magnification features it's got built into
it. So, again, for $800.00 for a larger storage iPad, iPod or iPhone for
that matter, how is that not a great deal and why wouldn't state agencies
consider such devices? Numbers don't lie. These devices are in many
instances a solid replacement for a bundle of all those other things at much
less of an overall cost.

I'm glad my acquaintance was able to get what he wanted and not get talked
into a crazy priced note taker which is basically a stripped down netbook
with braille display just because of whatever cosy relationship vendors may
have with agencies.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes and
contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a
traditional note
taker. I think he also received a Braille display (I don't know
which
model) and if memory serves, everything came out cheaper than
the note
taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from
Humanware
and after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of
the
iPad. With
a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in my circumstance came out to a third of the cost
than the
Apex would have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard,
display and
phone is still less than the note taker. When my acquaintance
asked me
for my opinion when he was working with his case manager, I
commented
to him my experience and he pitched it to his rep and low and
behold... He received what he requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers,
but in
my opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a
candle to
accessible tablets or accessible smart phones anymore.
Especially when
you factor in the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into
consideration the various accessibility related apps that can
often
replace the function of a blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab
agencies
for clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these
agencies are largely funded by state commissions for the
blind. No
I-device can ever completely replace a computer. They are
designed to
be mobile devices, not devices that can be used in a typical work
environment. They don't even have tactile keyboards just
touchscreens, so it is physically impossible to type on them as
fast
as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can you compose
and
print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better
with an
IPad than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay
for such
a device when you can accomplish the same thing with a
telephone? And
please don't tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the
IPad and IPhone. To me, the I-devices are little more than
overpriced
status symbols whose functionality can be duplicated by cheaper
devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on
both platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a
lot of
schools for LD students who (in the old days) might have used a
PC-based system such as K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a
major
blind rehab agency that they will never consider Apple
computers as
an alternative to Windows computers for their
clients. Why? Because
it would mean that their technology trainers would have to be
familiar with two totally different operating systems, program
sets
and keyboard commands. Plus, the rehab center would have to
purchase
and maintain two totally incompatible groups of
hardware. That costs
a lot of money, which most rehab agencies simply don't have.
Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients for jobs
in the
business world which relies heavily on Windows computers, not
Macs.
I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to
use a
Mac , I would have to do it on my own. This particular agency
has had
a long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their
hardware from them. So naturally, their clients only receive
training on Windows machines. To their credit, they did offer
me a
choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training,
I was
totally unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm
still
glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the
population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product
in the
first place, we need to insist to those who are doing the
purchasing
that we want something else. If some agency is buying computer
equipment for blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a
Mac,
for example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a
grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue
source
(fill in agency names here) and recommend that they support
another
competing product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit
anyone to
do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the
people
Freedom Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of
customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner, to sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a
stable,
bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular
number of
SMAs left or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest for persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond
what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that
they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going
to buy
a screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT
INTENDED
OR WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER
FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is
privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable
law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the
sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12


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Re: A Modest Proposal

Drew Hunthausen
 

thanks for this; always good to hear "positive" outlooks.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Richard Holloway
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:38 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

How interesting for you to know the exact abilities of all blind persons.

Do you know that blind and sighted persons can simply speak to an iPhone and
have it send a text or email from voice input. People not comfortable
walking with an iPhone even have the option to stand still or sit and use
the device at their leisure.

Do you not think that blind people walk about and make notes and comments on
notetakers just like the rest of the sighted population on a regular basis?

You have a very limited and discouraging view of what life should be for the
blind.

I hope a more optimistic view of life finds a way to you, and I say this
with all sincerity.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 24, 2012, at 4:52 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to send
emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued to
one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just
asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a
sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind
person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the
contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dierckens"
<matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the
IPhone to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
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Re: A Modest Proposal

Drew Hunthausen
 

I'm getting an iphone in the very near future and would be very interested
in which apps you use on your ipad. I'd really appreciate it if you could
e-mail me off list to discuss this. Thanks
dhunthausen@gmail.com

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Cristobal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:30 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

I have four separate email accounts on my iPad (one personal and 3
business), Google Voice and Skype for textign and making calls, note taking
apps, video and audio recording capabilities apps for reading of books be it
in mp3, daisy, ebooks, etc. Other accessibility related apps include
Learning Ally, NFB Newsline color identification apps (though not the best
with an iPad, can work in a pinch) and so on. Not to mention everything else
one can do with the tablet that is impossible with just a note taker by
itself for example. When I was doing my homework on whether to get the Apex,
I was talking to a rep about it and even though it was their job to talk up
the product, their arguements just didn't convince me. Yes, those types of
blindness targetted devices may have in some aspects more designs and
features taylored to a visually impaired user, but the idea of dropping
nearly $6,000.00 on something just because it has a braille display built
into it did not convince me in the least. Everything the Apex had, the iPad
already came with or I could find an app to get that particular feature and
more often than not, the app was simply better.

Having the tablet frees me from being tied to my computer in many instances.
The iPhone too is a great example of a swiss army knife of accessible
goodness. All the apps mentioned above and with a better camera makes other
apps like money identification, color identification, scanning text to
speech, taking photos of canned or boxed items and tagging them with a voice
lable for later reference, barcode reader, GPS and so on.

Again, even if one were to purchase just the phone unlocked at $800.00 or so
for a larger model, that's a lot less than what it would cost to buy all the
various accessible gizmos to replicate similar actions. I'm completely blind
so all the low vision stuff is irrelevent to me, but for partially sighted
folks, the iPad (especially the newest model) can be used with its camera as
a cctv along with all the other magnification features it's got built into
it. So, again, for $800.00 for a larger storage iPad, iPod or iPhone for
that matter, how is that not a great deal and why wouldn't state agencies
consider such devices? Numbers don't lie. These devices are in many
instances a solid replacement for a bundle of all those other things at much
less of an overall cost.

I'm glad my acquaintance was able to get what he wanted and not get talked
into a crazy priced note taker which is basically a stripped down netbook
with braille display just because of whatever cosy relationship vendors may
have with agencies.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes and
contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note
taker. I think he also received a Braille display (I don't know which
model) and if memory serves, everything came out cheaper than the note
taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the
iPad. With
a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the
Apex would have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and
phone is still less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me
for my opinion when he was working with his case manager, I commented
to him my experience and he pitched it to his rep and low and
behold... He received what he requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in
my opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when
you factor in the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into
consideration the various accessibility related apps that can often
replace the function of a blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these
agencies are largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No
I-device can ever completely replace a computer. They are designed to
be mobile devices, not devices that can be used in a typical work
environment. They don't even have tactile keyboards just
touchscreens, so it is physically impossible to type on them as fast
as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can you compose and
print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such
a device when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And
please don't tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the
IPad and IPhone. To me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced
status symbols whose functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on
both platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of
schools for LD students who (in the old days) might have used a
PC-based system such as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as
an alternative to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because
it would mean that their technology trainers would have to be
familiar with two totally different operating systems, program sets
and keyboard commands. Plus, the rehab center would have to purchase
and maintain two totally incompatible groups of hardware. That costs
a lot of money, which most rehab agencies simply don't have.
Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients for jobs in the
business world which relies heavily on Windows computers, not Macs.
I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a
Mac , I would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had
a long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their
hardware from them. So naturally, their clients only receive
training on Windows machines. To their credit, they did offer me a
choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still
glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing
that we want something else. If some agency is buying computer
equipment for blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to
do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of
customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner, to sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable,
bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs left or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest for persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy
a screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
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Re: A Modest Proposal

DJ
 

Why wouldn't state agencies consider such devices? Well, because Gerald
Levy doesn't think blind people should use them on the job, off the job, or
on the go. LOL!

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Cristobal
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:30 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

I have four separate email accounts on my iPad (one personal and 3
business), Google Voice and Skype for textign and making calls, note taking
apps, video and audio recording capabilities apps for reading of books be it
in mp3, daisy, ebooks, etc. Other accessibility related apps include
Learning Ally, NFB Newsline color identification apps (though not the best
with an iPad, can work in a pinch) and so on. Not to mention everything else
one can do with the tablet that is impossible with just a note taker by
itself for example. When I was doing my homework on whether to get the Apex,
I was talking to a rep about it and even though it was their job to talk up
the product, their arguements just didn't convince me. Yes, those types of
blindness targetted devices may have in some aspects more designs and
features taylored to a visually impaired user, but the idea of dropping
nearly $6,000.00 on something just because it has a braille display built
into it did not convince me in the least. Everything the Apex had, the iPad
already came with or I could find an app to get that particular feature and
more often than not, the app was simply better.

Having the tablet frees me from being tied to my computer in many instances.
The iPhone too is a great example of a swiss army knife of accessible
goodness. All the apps mentioned above and with a better camera makes other
apps like money identification, color identification, scanning text to
speech, taking photos of canned or boxed items and tagging them with a voice
lable for later reference, barcode reader, GPS and so on.

Again, even if one were to purchase just the phone unlocked at $800.00 or so
for a larger model, that's a lot less than what it would cost to buy all the
various accessible gizmos to replicate similar actions. I'm completely blind
so all the low vision stuff is irrelevent to me, but for partially sighted
folks, the iPad (especially the newest model) can be used with its camera as
a cctv along with all the other magnification features it's got built into
it. So, again, for $800.00 for a larger storage iPad, iPod or iPhone for
that matter, how is that not a great deal and why wouldn't state agencies
consider such devices? Numbers don't lie. These devices are in many
instances a solid replacement for a bundle of all those other things at much
less of an overall cost.

I'm glad my acquaintance was able to get what he wanted and not get talked
into a crazy priced note taker which is basically a stripped down netbook
with braille display just because of whatever cosy relationship vendors may
have with agencies.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:17 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes and
contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus
digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it
seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note
taker. I think he also received a Braille display (I don't know which
model) and if memory serves, everything came out cheaper than the note
taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the
iPad. With
a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the
Apex would have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and
phone is still less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me
for my opinion when he was working with his case manager, I commented
to him my experience and he pitched it to his rep and low and
behold... He received what he requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in
my opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when
you factor in the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into
consideration the various accessibility related apps that can often
replace the function of a blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these
agencies are largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No
I-device can ever completely replace a computer. They are designed to
be mobile devices, not devices that can be used in a typical work
environment. They don't even have tactile keyboards just
touchscreens, so it is physically impossible to type on them as fast
as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can you compose and
print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such
a device when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And
please don't tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the
IPad and IPhone. To me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced
status symbols whose functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on
both platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of
schools for LD students who (in the old days) might have used a
PC-based system such as K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as
an alternative to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because
it would mean that their technology trainers would have to be
familiar with two totally different operating systems, program sets
and keyboard commands. Plus, the rehab center would have to purchase
and maintain two totally incompatible groups of hardware. That costs
a lot of money, which most rehab agencies simply don't have.
Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients for jobs in the
business world which relies heavily on Windows computers, not Macs.
I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a
Mac , I would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had
a long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their
hardware from them. So naturally, their clients only receive
training on Windows machines. To their credit, they did offer me a
choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still
glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing
that we want something else. If some agency is buying computer
equipment for blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to
do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of
customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner, to sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable,
bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs left or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest for persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy
a screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED
OR WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12


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--------------------------------------------------
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/CTSMASTERING
BLOG: www.ctsmastering.com/blog
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Re: A Modest Proposal

Gerald Levy
 

That's why "distracted walking" should be made a punishable offense like distracted driving. As unsafe as it is for a sighted person to walk around while using a mobile device, it is even more dangerous for a blind person to do so.

Gerald

----- Original Message -----
From: "Drew Hunthausen" <dhunthausen@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:11 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


That goes with adaptive devices as well. People with full sight can't go
around sending e-mails or surfing the web while walking either. It doesn't
mean they don't do it, but they run into just as many people as we do.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:53 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to send
emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued to
one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just
asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a
sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind
person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the
contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dierckens" <matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the IPhone
to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple
Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or
home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad.
With a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience
and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor
in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function
of a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a
device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please
don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone.
To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system
such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean
that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands. Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally
incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab
agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train
clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers,
not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a Mac
,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen
readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac, for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non petitioner,
to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed
version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12


_______________________________________________
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Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
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--------------------------------------------------
CTS MASTERING, affordable and professional mixing and mastering:
http://www.ctsmastering.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/CTSMASTERING
BLOG: www.ctsmastering.com/blog
Linked In: http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/chris-smart/46/824/536


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Version: 10.0.1427 / Virus Database: 2441/5289 - Release Date: 09/24/12


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Re: A Modest Proposal

Gerald Levy
 

Well, unless you are lucky or rich enough to travel to work by taxi or chauffeur-driven limo, it is totally impractical for a blind person to use a mobile device on a bus or train, because they are distracting and could make the user a potential target for a mugger. Here in New York City, I-device theft is the fastest-growing crime. Besides, I-devices don't work on underground portions of subway and commuter train routes.

Gerald



Gerald

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 5:09 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Now out will come a few people to the rescue broadening the definition of
"on-the-go".
As I don't email in that condition let me just guess, um, how about on the
bus, the train, in a car, taxi etc. etc.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:53 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to send
emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued to
one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just
asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a
sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind
person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the
contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Matt Dierckens" <matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the IPhone
to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes
and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple
Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or
home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained
an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional note taker. I
think
he also received a Braille display (I don't know which model) and if
memory
serves, everything came out cheaper than the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from Humanware
and
after testing it out, I was more sold on the flexibility of the iPad.
With a
keyboard instead of the Apex. I also bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually
on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display and phone is
still
less than the note taker. When my acquaintance asked me for my opinion
when
he was working with his case manager, I commented to him my experience
and
he pitched it to his rep and low and behold... He received what he
requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in my
opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible
tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially when you factor
in
the cost of all devices. That's not even taking into consideration the
various accessibility related apps that can often replace the function
of a
blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies for
clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these agencies are
largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No I-device can ever
completely replace a computer. They are designed to be mobile devices,
not
devices that can be used in a typical work environment. They don't even
have tactile keyboards just touchscreens, so it is physically impossible
to
type on them as fast as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can
you
compose and print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course
not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an IPad
than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for such a
device
when you can accomplish the same thing with a telephone? And please
don't
tell me about all those "cool" apps available for the IPad and IPhone.
To
me, the I-devices are little more than overpriced status symbols whose
functionality can be duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious
training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on both
platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot of schools
for
LD students who (in the old days) might have used a PC-based system
such
as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind
rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as an
alternative
to Windows computers for their clients. Why? Because it would mean
that
their technology trainers would have to be familiar with two totally
different operating systems, program sets and keyboard commands. Plus,
the
rehab center would have to purchase and maintain two totally
incompatible
groups of hardware. That costs a lot of money, which most rehab
agencies
simply don't have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train
clients
for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows computers,
not
Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology trainer at the rehab
center, and his attitude was that if I wanted to learn how to use a Mac
,
I
would have to do it on my own. This particular agency has had a
long-standing relationship with Dell and purchases all their hardware
from
them. So naturally, their clients only receive training on Windows
machines. To their credit, they did offer me a choice of screen
readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I was
totally
unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population of
users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in the
first
place, we need to insist to those who are doing the purchasing that we
want something else. If some agency is buying computer equipment for
blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac, for
example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand per
computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue source
(fill
in agency names here) and recommend that they support another
competing
product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to
sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone to do anything.
It
just underscores how serious the problem has become to the people
Freedom
Scientific Depends on most, ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non petitioner,
to
sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for such
assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners
would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable, bug-fixed
version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number of
SMAs
left
or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you suggest
for
persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com

_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release Date:
09/23/12


_______________________________________________
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_______________________________________________
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http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
--------------------------------------------------
CTS MASTERING, affordable and professional mixing and mastering:
http://www.ctsmastering.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/CTSMASTERING
BLOG: www.ctsmastering.com/blog
Linked In: http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/chris-smart/46/824/536


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Using avast internet security?

Carliss
 

Listers,

I am using avast internet security and all is working well except, I can't
seem to get the scan computer button to work. I can go any where I need to
go in avast internet security. But not the scan button. Is this not
accessibal to usthat use Jaws? I'm usingJaws13.

Thanks!



Carliss



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Re: A Modest Proposal

Cristóbal
 

Even sighted people have to deal with these hazards. Just get a keyboard for
the phone and away you go. And yes, one can become pretty proficient with a
bluetooth keyboard for a cell phone. Don't forget the whole crackberry
condition. Even on my old HTC TYTN with it's slide out keyboard, I could
shoot off texts with minimal effort. There are some very nice keyboards for
the complete touch screen smartphones now that have only improved the
experience.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Chris Smart
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 2:14 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

boy Gerald, you assume that your situation applies to everyone else's. *LOL*
But yes, these things are distracting, not just for the blind. Ever heard of
distracted drivers not looking at the road while texting, and speeding along
at 70 mph?



At 04:52 PM 9/24/2012, you wrote:

Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size
tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to
send emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an
IPhone glued to one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the
other hand is just asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a
greatmobile device for a sighted person, it can be a potential
distracting nightmare for a blind person. Sorry, but no blind person ,
no matter what they claim to the contrary, can safely walk around and
use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dierckens"
<matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the
IPhone to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little
keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy"
<bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store
notes and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a
simple Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at
work or home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal"
<crismunoz54@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 3:22 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Not so fast... I have an acquaintance who through his state agency
obtained an iPad and Bluetooth keyboard instead of a traditional
note taker. I think he also received a Braille display (I don't know
which model) and if memory serves, everything came out cheaper than
the note taker would have.
Earlier this year, I too was considering buying an Apex from
Humanware and after testing it out, I was more sold on the
flexibility of the iPad. With a keyboard instead of the Apex. I also
bought a 40 cell display.
Everything in
my circumstance came out to a third of the cost than the Apex would
have.
Even if I were to throw in my iPhone in an unlocked scenario (I'm
actually on contract), the cost for the tablet, keyboard, display
and phone is still less than the note taker. When my acquaintance
asked me for my opinion when he was working with his case manager, I
commented to him my experience and he pitched it to his rep and low
and behold... He received what he requested.

It's true that tablets aren't yet replacements for computers, but in
my opinion anyway, note takers for the blind can't hold a candle to
accessible tablets or accessible smart phones anymore. Especially
when you factor in the cost of all devices. That's not even taking
into consideration the various accessibility related apps that can
often replace the function of a blindness oriented gadget.

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 11:30 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


To be perfectly honest, purchasing I-devices by blind rehab agencies
for clients is an outrageous waste of taxpayer money, as these
agencies are largely funded by state commissions for the blind. No
I-device can ever completely replace a computer. They are designed
to be mobile devices, not devices that can be used in a typical work
environment. They don't even have tactile keyboards just
touchscreens, so it is physically impossible to type on them as fast
as you can on a standard , full size keyboard. Can you compose and
print documents or read your mail with an IPad? Of course not.
But, you say, you can send and receive text messages better with an
IPad than with a computer. But why should a blind agency pay for
such a device when you can accomplish the same thing with a
telephone? And please don't tell me about all those "cool" apps
available for the IPad and IPhone. To me, the I-devices are little
more than overpriced status symbols whose functionality can be
duplicated by cheaper devices.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Jon Pierson" <joncpierson@gmail.com>
To: "'The Jaws for Windows support list.'" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 1:31 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


Hi,
Actually it may never happen in some places, but MN is doing some
serious training and providing iDevices in many situations.
I know of a person in CA who's already started teaching people on
both platforms as well. The iPad is also being purchased by a lot
of schools for LD students who (in the old days) might have used a
PC-based system such as
K3000 or Magic.
So the times, they are a'changin'.

Jon

-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Gerald Levy
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 9:26 AM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


Never happen. I can tell you from personal experience with a major
blind rehab agency that they will never consider Apple computers as
an alternative to Windows computers for their clients. Why?
Because it would mean that their technology trainers would have to
be familiar with two totally different operating systems, program
sets and keyboard commands. Plus, the rehab center would have to
purchase and maintain two totally incompatible groups of hardware.
That costs a lot of money, which most rehab agencies simply don't
have. Besides, the goal of blind rehab is to train clients for
jobs in the business world which relies heavily on Windows
computers, not Macs. I discussed this issue with my technology
trainer at the rehab center, and his attitude was that if I wanted
to learn how to use a Mac , I would have to do it on my own. This
particular agency has had a long-standing relationship with Dell
and purchases all their hardware from them. So naturally, their
clients only receive training on Windows machines. To their
credit, they did offer me a choice of screen readers:
JAWS or System Access. Atthe the time I received my training, I
was totally unfamiliar with System Access, so I chose JAWS. I'm
still glad I did.

Gerald


----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 10:40 AM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


agreed. since many here, and probably many more in the population
of users
who are not on this mailing list did not pay for the product in
the first place, we need to insist to those who are doing the
purchasing that we want something else. If some agency is buying
computer equipment for blind
folks and they find out that most people would be served by a Mac,
for example, even a Mac Mini, which would save them over a grand
per computer,
they might consider it.



At 04:01 AM 9/24/2012, you wrote:
Hi,
I think that stating that the clients would go to the revenue
source (fill in agency names here) and recommend that they
support another competing product.
Money usually talks.

Jon



-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:30 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

No. We could drop the idea of sacrificing an SMA if that is too
problematic. The idea of stating that the petitioners would be
willing to sacrifice an SMA doesn't really legally commit anyone
to do anything. It just underscores how serious the problem has
become to the people Freedom Scientific Depends on most,
ultimately, its base of customers.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Guido Corona
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:19 PM
To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.'
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

Ed, are the petitioners volunteering me, definitely a non
petitioner, to sacrifice an SMA?

Are you trying to spend my own money? I do not recall asking for
such assistance.

Guido


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Marquette, Ed
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:00 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal

The petition, as I'm envisioning it, would just state that the
petitioners would be willing to sacrifice an SMA to get a stable,
bug-fixed version.
No
one is actually warranting that they have any particular number
of SMAs left or otherwise available.


-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com
[mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com]
On Behalf Of Karen Hughes
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 8:52 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal

i do not have any upgrades left in a s m a, so what would you
suggest for persons like me. karen

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marquette, Ed" <Ed.Marquette@KutakRock.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 9:42 PM
Subject: RE: A Modest Proposal


OK.
The idea of sacrificing one SMA was really to underscore the
seriousness of the petitioners. I admit it may be beyond
what is
essential.
It is one thing simply to sign a petition. Pretty much
anyone
can do
that, but if users are so serious about the situation
that they
would
willingly pay one SMA just to get what they should have been
delivered
anyway, that sends a powerful message. If you were going
to buy a
screen reader for the first time or even if you were
recommending to
an agency the screen reader to endorse, wouldn't you hesitate
to go
with a product with users in revolt? Well, that's the
idea. Right
now, JAWS is the only screen reader that will do what I need
done, and I'm
grateful for that.
It is just ... Well I've said it already.

Making the SMA sacrifice a part of the petition was just an
idea. I
regard it as optional. Remember, I'm inviting comment, and I
appreciate yours.
ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD
NOT BE
USED OR
REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING
OF ANY
ENTITY,
INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT
INTENDED OR
WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE
PURPOSE
OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE.

This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the
named
recipients above and may contain information that is
privileged,
attorney work product or otherwise protected by
applicable law.
If you
have received this message in error, please notify the
sender at
402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message.
Thank you.

_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com


_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
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_______________________________________________
Jfw mailing list
Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com
http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release
Date: 09/23/12

-----
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2012.0.2197 / Virus Database: 2441/5287 - Release
Date: 09/23/12


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_______________________________________________
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--------------------------------------------------
CTS MASTERING, affordable and professional mixing and mastering:
http://www.ctsmastering.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/#!/CTSMASTERING
BLOG: www.ctsmastering.com/blog
Linked In: http://ca.linkedin.com/pub/chris-smart/46/824/536


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Re: administrator in windows 7

Stan Holdeman
 

Soronel: I got into something about UAC settings. Mine are set at 67 percent whatever that means. Do you think I need to adjust this?


Stan

-----Original Message-----
From: Soronel Haetir
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:24 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: administrator in windows 7

Dunno what to tell you, I would expect either the UAC chime or that a
UAC request is waiting in the background somewhere.

On 9/24/12, Stan Holdeman <sholdeman@msn.com> wrote:
Soronel: Yes, it is as you say except that when I hit continue the dialogue

is closed but nothing else happens.

Stan


-----Original Message-----
From: Soronel Haetir
Sent: Sunday, September 23, 2012 7:42 PM
To: The Jaws for Windows support list.
Subject: Re: administrator in windows 7

You probably already have admin rights but were just running with the
normal user token rather than elevated. Didn't the window telling
you there was a problem also have something like a Continue button?
That will usually trigger the UAC elevation sequence and after hitting
Yes there then you can perform whatever operation you were attempting.

On 9/23/12, Stan Holdeman <sholdeman@msn.com> wrote:
Listers: When I tried to paste my seasoned jaws 13 dictionary file
)default.jdf) from my old machine into my new windows 7 jaws
13/settings/enu
folder on my new machine, I was told I must have administrative
permission
to do this.

I guess this means that I must set up an administrator account unless
there
is some way around it that I don't know about.

Are there any good suggestions about setting this up to have the least
hassle at log in, etc.?

Thanks for your help.

Stan


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soronel.haetir@gmail.com

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Re: A Modest Proposal

Richard Holloway
 

How interesting for you to know the exact abilities of all blind persons.

Do you know that blind and sighted persons can simply speak to an iPhone and have it send a text or email from voice input. People not comfortable walking with an iPhone even have the option to stand still or sit and use the device at their leisure.

Do you not think that blind people walk about and make notes and comments on notetakers just like the rest of the sighted population on a regular basis?

You have a very limited and discouraging view of what life should be for the blind.

I hope a more optimistic view of life finds a way to you, and I say this with all sincerity.

Sent from my iPad

On Sep 24, 2012, at 4:52 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


Once again, you can type far faster and more efficiently on a full-size tactile keyboard. And please don't tell me that you use your IPhone to send emails on the go. Any blind person who walks around with an IPhone glued to one ear with a white cane or guide dog harness in the other hand is just asking for trouble. So while an IPhone may be a greatmobile device for a sighted person, it can be a potential distracting nightmare for a blind person. Sorry, but no blind person , no matter what they claim to the contrary, can safely walk around and use a mobile device at the same time.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt Dierckens" <matt.dierckens@gmail.com>
To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com>
Sent: Monday, September 24, 2012 4:32 PM
Subject: Re: A Modest Proposal


regarding your comment on not being able to type quickly on an IPhone?
RII mini-bluetooth keyboard, $45 from AT Guys. Using it now, on the IPhone to write this email.
It fits in your pocket, about the size of the phone. Very great little keyboard.
Matt
Sent from my Iphone.

On 2012-09-24, at 2:17 PM, "Gerald Levy" <bwaylimited@verizon.net> wrote:


So exactly what do you use your IPad for? If you use it to store notes and contacts, this can be accomplished far more cheaply by a simple Olympus digital recorder. If you already have a computer at work or home, then it seems to me that an IPad is superfluous.

Gerald


----- Original Message ----- From: "Cristobal" <crismunoz54@gmail.com>