On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 12:32 PM, Soronel Haetir wrote:

I find that more difficult for programs using the ribbon but I still try.

-
If you have not already done so, please read Gene Asner's tutorial on using the ribbons, in which he also covers the Windows split button as a thing of its own:
Using Ribbons to Control Program Functions in Microsoft Windows - G. Asner

Then my two:
Using the Ribbon Interface in Windows via the Keyboard
Deeper Detail on the Ribbon Interface and Navigating It

Then Microsoft's own: Microsoft Support:  Use the Keyboard to Work with the Ribbon

The ribbons are menus, they are just navigated differently.  I don't like them as much as I liked the old menu system, but the old menu system was becoming unmanageable with submenu depth, and too much was completely hidden.  And, as you've noted, they're not going away and are the default UI for virtually all things Windows.

Once you get used to navigating the ribbon by command control groups, which is dirt simple once you've done it a couple of times, it starts to feel very "old menu like."  It's just the exact how you get where you're going that changes.

I encourage any user, blind or sighted, to create their own "Greatest Hits Cheat Sheet" for the direct keyboard shortcuts to the commands they use either constantly or frequently, which was even common practice during the menu era.  It's way faster to use those for what you do frequently, but having explored the all the ribbons in an application, as you used to do for all the menus in a program, lets you have something in the back of your head about having encountered something when you hit an occasion where you need it.

Things like Word have become so complex that the ribbons as a whole are not comprehensive in presenting each and every command.  There are some that are so obscure, and so infrequently used except by a select group of users, that you need to customize specific ribbons or even add one of the normally hidden ribbons.  Since I do work with creating fillable MS-Word templates for forms of various types I have the Developer tab/ribbon shown in the collection of tabs.  Many people who use Word will never encounter that ribbon because they don't ever have occasion to use it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044  

Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.

       ~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States, September 23, 2019

Hello Lists,

I currently have a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 64-bit. I have Jaws 2022 on it with a Focus 40 Braille display.

When I go to Windows update, it keeps asking me to upgrade to Windows 11.

I am wondering if anyone on either list has done this.

Were you able to do it successfully with no sighted assistance, or do you need sighted assistance.

Can you please provide some guidance.

When the Windows upgrad to Windows 11 runs, will it kick out the Jaws installation, ore will it remain.

I am just trying to figure this out.

Thanks,

Jeff Lukacsena

On Wed, Feb 2, 2022 at 12:32 PM, Soronel Haetir wrote:

I find that more difficult for programs using the ribbon but I still try.

-
If you have not already done so, please read Gene Asner's tutorial on using
the ribbons, in which he also covers the Windows split button as a thing of
its own:
Using Ribbons to Control Program Functions in Microsoft Windows - G. Asner (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1uTKhZZxWZ2QtF3KQgFCnO__gDdBKWmEn
)

Then my two:
Using the Ribbon Interface in Windows via the Keyboard (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=0B98uELZbPFnOTUI1dDhDaHpwTk0
)
Deeper Detail on the Ribbon Interface and Navigating It (
https://drive.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1kaM3GbWPo9MgqJlQzmcBpqLvsTmGjGOX
)

Then Microsoft's own: Microsoft Support:  Use the Keyboard to Work with the
Ribbon (
https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/use-the-keyboard-to-work-with-the-ribbon-954cd3f7-2f77-4983-978d-c09b20e31f0e
)

The ribbons are menus, they are just navigated differently.  I don't like
them as much as I liked the old menu system, but the old menu system was
becoming unmanageable with submenu depth, and too much was completely
hidden.  And, as you've noted, they're not going away and are the default UI
for virtually all things Windows.

Once you get used to navigating the ribbon by command control groups, which
is dirt simple once you've done it a couple of times, it starts to feel very
"old menu like."  It's just the exact how you get where you're going that
changes.

I encourage any user, blind or sighted, to create their own "Greatest Hits
Cheat Sheet" for the direct keyboard shortcuts to the commands they use
either constantly or frequently, which was even common practice during the
menu era.  It's way faster to use those for what you do frequently, but
having explored the all the ribbons in an application, as you used to do for
all the menus in a program, lets you have something in the back of your head
about having encountered something when you hit an occasion where you need
it.

Things like Word have become so complex that the ribbons as a whole are not
comprehensive in presenting each and every command.  There are some that are
so obscure, and so infrequently used except by a select group of users, that
you need to customize specific ribbons or even add one of the normally
hidden ribbons.  Since I do work with creating fillable MS-Word templates
for forms of various types I have the Developer tab/ribbon shown in the
collection of tabs.  Many people who use Word will never encounter that
ribbon because they don't ever have occasion to use it.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
) , September 23, 2019

Hello Lists,

I currently have a Lenovo laptop running Windows 10 64-bit. I have Jaws 2022 on it with a Focus 40 Braille display.

When I go to Windows update, it keeps asking me to upgrade to Windows 11.

I am wondering if anyone on either list has done this.

Were you able to do it successfully with no sighted assistance, or do you need sighted assistance.

Can you please provide some guidance.

When the Windows upgrad to Windows 11 runs, will it kick out the Jaws installation, ore will it remain.

I am just trying to figure this out.

Thanks,

Jeff Lukacsena

Because installed applications and apps both can have very different UIs,
you'll probably get more responses, and of higher quality, if you provide a
couple of examples of applications or apps you're thinking about.

This is a very difficult question to answer purely in the abstract, as so
much depends on the "style" of the given apps or applications.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform. Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
) , September 23, 2019

Because installed applications and apps both can have very different UIs,
you'll probably get more responses, and of higher quality, if you provide a
couple of examples of applications or apps you're thinking about.

This is a very difficult question to answer purely in the abstract, as so
much depends on the "style" of the given apps or applications.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform. Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
) , September 23, 2019

Because installed applications and apps both can have very different UIs,
you'll probably get more responses, and of higher quality, if you provide a
couple of examples of applications or apps you're thinking about.

This is a very difficult question to answer purely in the abstract, as so
much depends on the "style" of the given apps or applications.
--

Brian - Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H2, Build 19044

*Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its
platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth.*

~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in New York Times article, How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment
Took Hold in the United States (
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html
) , September 23, 2019

I have definitely seen this when the site opens a PDF document, as is the case with my internal benefits site at work.  If I know this will happen, I will do the application key and have it open in a new tab or window.  I’ve also done this with search results when arrowing back to the search page doesn’t bring me back in the search results list where I left off. 

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I have definitely seen this when the site opens a PDF document, as is the case with my internal benefits site at work.  If I know this will happen, I will do the application key and have it open in a new tab or window.  I’ve also done this with search results when arrowing back to the search page doesn’t bring me back in the search results list where I left off. 

KeyCorp Public

This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. No confidentiality or privilege is waived or lost as a result of any transmission errors. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you have received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy.

This communication is for informational purposes only, is not an offer, solicitation, recommendation or commitment for any transaction or to buy or sell any security or other financial product, and is not intended as investment advice or as a confirmation of any transaction. Any market price, indicative value, estimate, view, opinion, data or other information herein is not warranted as to completeness or accuracy, is subject to change without notice, and KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. accepts no liability for its use or to update or keep it current. Any views or opinions are those of the individual sender, not necessarily of KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc.

The sender of this communication is a licensed securities representative employed by or associated with KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Member FINRA/SIPC and may also represent KeyBank National Association (“KeyBank N.A.”). Securities products and services are offered by KeyBanc Capital Markets Inc. Banking products and services are offered by KeyBank N.A.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114

If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key send an e-mail to DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.