Hello Tom, if you go to the groups.io <http://groups.io> website, and
login to the website, and then go and find the group that you want,
and click on manage subscription. There is a button that says leave
group. Perhaps that would possibly be easier for you. If you need
more instructions on working the website please feel free to reach
out.

On Dec 22, 2021, at 11:03 PM, bushyx008@... <mailto:bushyx008@...> wrote:
Hi, If Madison uses anOutlook.com <http://outlook.com/>account and
hopes things will improve under Thunderbird then she may be
disappointed.
Outlook 2013,usingoutlook.com <http://outlook.com/>, gave me many problems so I changed the email client to Thunderbird but this was
not without its problems either.
Currently,groups.io <http://groups.io/>is returning all
myoutlook.com <http://outlook.com/>based messages sent to the two
lists which usegroups.io <http://groups.io/>and has been doing so
for the past month or more. The messages are returned as
undeliverable.
I have had to switch to a different email account while using
Thunderbird
Now I am having a problem unsubscribing from the listsbecause of
the problem withOutlook.com <http://outlook.com/>andgroups.io <http://groups.io/>.
Anyone got an address forgroups.io <http://groups.io/>where it will
be possible to unsubscribe?
Thanks Tom
On 23/12/2021 12:04 pm, Bill White wrote:

Hi, Ken. Madison knows she has Outlook. It's not working properly
for her, so she's contemplating the differences between
Thunderbird and Outlook. Bill White billwhite92701@...
<mailto:billwhite92701@...> -----Original Message----- From:
main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ken Chernack via groups.io Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2021 5:11
PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: Re: email client question Good
evening. If you have Office365 then you already have Outlook! HTH, Ken -----Original Message----- From: main@jfw.groups.io
<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Madison Martin Sent: Wednesday,
December 22, 2021 4:01 PM To: main@jfw.groups.io Subject: email
client question Hi all, I got to wondering, what are the
differences and similarities between Outlook and Thunderbird in
terms of keystrokes, using them with Jaws etc.? I know the big
one, that Thunderbird is free and Outlook isn't. I currently use
Office 365, but I've heard people talking about Thunderbird and so I got curious. If it's pretty similar and if there wouldn't be
much of a learning curve then I might think about trying it
especially if it would solve the issue with my Outlook.com
account. Using latest versions of Jaws and Windows 10. Look
forward to any info that anyone can provide me!! Thanks Madison

This message may get long, but I'm going to describe what's going on as best I can.  But the long and the short of it is that the bounce messages members have been receiving that just so happened to be using an outlook.com address are not, in all probability, connected to that at all.
First, it's important to note that virtually all of the blind-tech-centric groups are NOT what Groups.io calls a restricted group.  When you send a subscribe message, you are instantly accepted for membership in the group without any need for the group owner's or moderator's manual intervention to approve your membership.  Your first message is, by groups.io default, held for review by the group owner or moderator before subsequent messages can post.
A very great many (not all, but many) non-blind-tech-centric groups are, in fact, restricted groups where, after sending the subscribe message, and after replying to the confirm message, you are still not a member of the group you are attempting to subscribe to until and unless someone in group administration approves you for membership.  If you attempt to send any message to the group prior to your membership in the group being approved, you will receive a bounce message that, by all appearances, makes it seem as though the groups.io posting address for the group you're trying to send a message to does not exist.  Here is a snippet of what I got back, twice, when attempting to send a message to a testing group, that was a restricted group, before my membership was approved:
--------------------------------------------
*Delivery has failed to these recipients or groups:*
main@shalstest.groups.io (main@shalstest.groups.io) <mailto:main@shalstest.groups.io>
Your message couldn't be delivered. When Office 365 tried to send the message, the external email server returned the error below.
.
.
.
*Diagnostic information for administrators:*
Generating server: CH2PR19MB3989.namprd19.prod.outlook.com
main@shalstest.groups.io <mailto:main@shalstest.groups.io>
Remote Server returned '550 5.0.350 Remote server returned an error -> 500 Your subscription has not yet been approved.'
--------------------------------------------
The actual reason for the bounce message is buried way, way, way further down in the administrator diagnostic information: Your subscription has not yet been approved.
Once your membership is approved, you then get whatever welcome message that group's administration has set up to go out for new members.
After you have received the welcome message, you will no longer get the bounce messages like the one noted above.  But your first message will still be held for review and no other messages will go out to the group if you send them until the group administration has reviewed and released your first one.
So, if you get a bounce message, it makes sense to search it for the phrase, /*Diagnostic information for administrators*/, and then review a few of the lines below that line.  Right after the group's main address you should hit the line that tells you precisely why you got the bounce message.
This is likely to remain the same for the foreseeable future, and if you're joining a lot of groups you cannot presume that they're all unrestricted groups like most of the blind-tech-centric groups are.
--
Brian -Windows 10, 64-Bit, Version 21H1, Build 19043
*/Science has become just another voice in the room; it has lost its platform.  Now, you simply declare your own truth./*
~ Dr. Paul A. Offit, in /New York Times/ article, /How Anti-Vaccine Sentiment Took Hold in the United States/ <https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/23/health/anti-vaccination-movement-us.html>/,/September 23, 2019

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel.

One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11^th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn

I would buy an external keyboard



If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

 

David Goldfield,

Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist

JAWS Certified, 2019

Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.

Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

 

www.DavidGoldfield.org

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

 

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference. 

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room.

On Dec 23, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Zachary Morris <morriszachary99@...> wrote:

I think I remember that issue on my old dell laptop. Although I’m not quite sure if it was because of realtek drivers or some other reason; when I switched to the microsoft audio driver, I don’t quite remember if that fixed it; I remember doing way too much configuration for my own good when I started using that laptop.
Regards,
Zach
Sent from my MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020)

On Dec 23, 2021, at 11:43, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel.
One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.DavidGoldfield.org__;!!LteP8qm
F6ok6!cJXa_0coE5L5z_8rMQzeP3HwVHza-3Zv6G0DrNVnK_nGf3PM_kWUCxruo7nnvhq
3cjc$



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lori Lynn
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn


From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Abraham
Sweiss
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:53 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I would buy an external keyboard

Thanks,abraham


On Dec 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:


If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.DavidGoldfield.org__;!!LteP8qm
F6ok6!cJXa_0coE5L5z_8rMQzeP3HwVHza-3Zv6G0DrNVnK_nGf3PM_kWUCxruo7nnvhq
3cjc$



From: main@jfw.groups.io<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip
Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference.

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room.

On Dec 23, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Zachary Morris <morriszachary99@...> wrote:

I think I remember that issue on my old dell laptop. Although I’m not quite sure if it was because of realtek drivers or some other reason; when I switched to the microsoft audio driver, I don’t quite remember if that fixed it; I remember doing way too much configuration for my own good when I started using that laptop.
Regards,
Zach
Sent from my MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020)

On Dec 23, 2021, at 11:43, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel.
One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.DavidGoldfield.org__;!!LteP8qm
F6ok6!cJXa_0coE5L5z_8rMQzeP3HwVHza-3Zv6G0DrNVnK_nGf3PM_kWUCxruo7nnvhq
3cjc$



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lori Lynn
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn


From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Abraham
Sweiss
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:53 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I would buy an external keyboard

Thanks,abraham


On Dec 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:


If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.DavidGoldfield.org__;!!LteP8qm
F6ok6!cJXa_0coE5L5z_8rMQzeP3HwVHza-3Zv6G0DrNVnK_nGf3PM_kWUCxruo7nnvhq
3cjc$



From: main@jfw.groups.io<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip
Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference.

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room.

On Dec 23, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Zachary Morris <morriszachary99@...> wrote:

I think I remember that issue on my old dell laptop. Although I’m not quite sure if it was because of realtek drivers or some other reason; when I switched to the microsoft audio driver, I don’t quite remember if that fixed it; I remember doing way too much configuration for my own good when I started using that laptop.
Regards,
Zach
Sent from my MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020)

On Dec 23, 2021, at 11:43, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel.
One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.DavidGoldfield.org__;!!LteP8qm
F6ok6!ft9-7KxksbEdQp-sUQKfzbUCA99syjof6D3S35IRfE2iD08fSF3SXHa3PSh2wKf
R2DI$



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lori Lynn
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn


From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Abraham
Sweiss
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:53 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I would buy an external keyboard

Thanks,abraham


On Dec 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:


If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

https://urldefense.com/v3/__http://www.DavidGoldfield.org__;!!LteP8qm
F6ok6!ft9-7KxksbEdQp-sUQKfzbUCA99syjof6D3S35IRfE2iD08fSF3SXHa3PSh2wKf
R2DI$



From: main@jfw.groups.io<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip
Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference.

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room.

On Dec 24, 2021, at 11:56 AM, Joseph Hudson <jhud7789@...> wrote:

Hi Tom, yes this is absolutely correct.

On Dec 23, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Tom Behler <tombehler@...> wrote:

All:

I may have more questions about this as I proceed further, but if you purchase a windows tablet or laptop without a numpad, will there be any problems invoking certain Jaws reading commands, like Insert 2, Insert 3, etc.?

I would assume you could use the numbers on the main number row, and the insert key on the normal keyboard.

Is this correct?

Thank you!

Dr.  Tom Behler From Michigan



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bonnie Vegiard
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 2:51 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on buying the laptop. I am so used to the desktop layout that I have relied on the NUM pad, and I found it difficult to switch over. Also, I have some vision, so a larger screen is helpful. The guy who is going to make a recommendation did  come through, but he recommended one with a touchscreen, which I think is only going to complicate things for me. Still trying to decide whether to get a bigger laptop, or just get a num pad to go with the one I’ve got. But I appreciate all your thoughts.

Bonnie Vegiard

On Dec 23, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Zachary Morris <morriszachary99@...> wrote:

I think I remember that issue on my old dell laptop. Although I’m not quite sure if it was because of realtek drivers or some other reason; when I switched to the microsoft audio driver, I don’t quite remember if that fixed it; I remember doing way too much configuration for my own good when I started using that laptop.
Regards,
Zach
Sent from my MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020)

On Dec 23, 2021, at 11:43, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel. 
One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019 
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lori Lynn
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn


From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Abraham 
Sweiss
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:53 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I would buy an external keyboard

Thanks,abraham


On Dec 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:


If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019 
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip 
Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference. 

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room. 

On Dec 23, 2021, at 1:55 PM, Tom Behler <tombehler@...> wrote:

All:

I may have more questions about this as I proceed further, but if you purchase a windows tablet or laptop without a numpad, will there be any problems invoking certain Jaws reading commands, like Insert 2, Insert 3, etc.?

I would assume you could use the numbers on the main number row, and the insert key on the normal keyboard.

Is this correct?

Thank you!

Dr.  Tom Behler From Michigan



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bonnie Vegiard
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 2:51 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

Thanks everyone for your thoughts on buying the laptop. I am so used to the desktop layout that I have relied on the NUM pad, and I found it difficult to switch over. Also, I have some vision, so a larger screen is helpful. The guy who is going to make a recommendation did  come through, but he recommended one with a touchscreen, which I think is only going to complicate things for me. Still trying to decide whether to get a bigger laptop, or just get a num pad to go with the one I’ve got. But I appreciate all your thoughts.

Bonnie Vegiard

On Dec 23, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Zachary Morris <morriszachary99@...> wrote:

I think I remember that issue on my old dell laptop. Although I’m not quite sure if it was because of realtek drivers or some other reason; when I switched to the microsoft audio driver, I don’t quite remember if that fixed it; I remember doing way too much configuration for my own good when I started using that laptop.
Regards,
Zach
Sent from my MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020)

On Dec 23, 2021, at 11:43, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel. 
One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019 
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lori Lynn
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn


From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Abraham 
Sweiss
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:53 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I would buy an external keyboard

Thanks,abraham


On Dec 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:


If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019 
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip 
Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference. 

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room. 

On Dec 23, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Zachary Morris <morriszachary99@...> wrote:

I think I remember that issue on my old dell laptop. Although I’m not quite sure if it was because of realtek drivers or some other reason; when I switched to the microsoft audio driver, I don’t quite remember if that fixed it; I remember doing way too much configuration for my own good when I started using that laptop.
Regards,
Zach
Sent from my MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020)

On Dec 23, 2021, at 11:43, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel.
One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lori Lynn
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn


From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Abraham
Sweiss
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:53 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I would buy an external keyboard

Thanks,abraham


On Dec 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:


If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip
Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference.

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room.

On Dec 23, 2021, at 12:50 PM, Zachary Morris <morriszachary99@...> wrote:

I think I remember that issue on my old dell laptop. Although I’m not quite sure if it was because of realtek drivers or some other reason; when I switched to the microsoft audio driver, I don’t quite remember if that fixed it; I remember doing way too much configuration for my own good when I started using that laptop.
Regards,
Zach
Sent from my MacBook Air (Retina, 13-inch, 2020)

On Dec 23, 2021, at 11:43, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:

Lori is correct. If a user prefers a number pad as part of the keyboard and if having one makes things easier then the user should have it. While I’m personally fine with using my preferred external keyboard with my laptop this definitely reduces the portability if you frequently travel.
One consideration that hasn’t been mentioned is the problematic audio latency issues when using screen readers with some (but definitely not all) Realtek drivers. The Microsoft store had a sale with an Asus Vivobook laptop which I bought for my sighted wife. Its performance was impressive but I noticed a delay between pressing a key and hearing the screen reader speak the results of that key press. This was true for both typing characters as well as navigating with arrow keys. Disabling audio enhancements definitely helped but there was still a slight delay which I was unable to fix no matter what I tried which included installing the latest Realtek drivers and running the SFC and Dism commands. My sixth generation I7 Dell Lattitude, which also uses Realtek drivers, provides completely instant response and if I can’t have that same level of responsiveness with an 11th-generation I5 I don’t want the laptop. I’ve alerted Asus about this but wanted to throw that out there as a possible warning. Based on feedback from these groups I’m assuming the problem isn’t all that common but it happens enough that I think some organized advocacy with Realtek is definitely in order.


David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Lori Lynn
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 12:12 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I also went through the process of buying a new laptop this summer. It was more complicated by the fact that I live in a very small town and the nearest place to actually look at more than 2 or 3 is about 50 miles away. I also strongly wanted a numpad as well. Part of it is I’m older and wanted what I’m use to having. Part of it is also because I felt that having a separate keyboard was more cumbersome than I wanted to deal with. I ended up getting a 17 inch Del through Amazon. I found that if it has a numpad then it will be mentioned in the description. Remember that you are the one who will be using it, so get what you want and can afford.

Lori Lynn


From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Abraham
Sweiss
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 10:53 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I would buy an external keyboard

Thanks,abraham


On Dec 23, 2021, at 9:54 AM, David Goldfield <david.goldfield@...> wrote:


If having a numeric keypad on your laptop’s keyboard is important to you I’d recommend two things. First, look at the description of the laptop on the page since it might mention that a number pad is included. If it doesn’t I would send a link to a sighted person to ask if they see a number pad on the keyboard.

David Goldfield,
Blindness Assistive Technology Specialist JAWS Certified, 2019
Subscribe to the Tech-VI announcement list to receive emails regarding news and events in the blindness assistive technology field.
Email: tech-vi+subscribe@groups.io

www.DavidGoldfield.org



From: main@jfw.groups.io<main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Phillip
Gross
Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2021 9:07 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Buying a laptop

I, like others, don't use the numpad. In fact, at home where I use a bluetooth keyboard, I still use laptop layout, but that's just my preference.

Anyway, you have two options. If you never travel with your laptop, then I would go get a keyboard that you like. Try several and see which one fits you best. If you do travel with your laptop, then get an external numpad. That will fit in a laptop bag and shouldn't take up much room.