Date   

moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

James,

          It is not I, but Orlando, who wants to take away your step-by-step instructions!  ;-)  I simply accept that step-by-step instruction sets need to be updated or rewritten entirely when what they're working with changes significantly.

          That "oso" was a complete accident.  It was supposed to read, "there's a big oops," as in mistake or glitch.  And I'm still using a relatively new to me laptop, and its touchpad is significantly more sensitive and I'm trying to fine tune that, but on occasion I accidentally move my insertion point and don't know it.  Usually I see it and correct whatever mess I've made, but not that time.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

Dan Longmore
 

Funny, I note that some of these posts are becoming belittling and condescending.  Just the very issues they claim to object to.

Anyway, Facebook list is fine but not nearly as easy for access as a list such as this.

Dan

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Moore
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 5:07 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

There is a great JAWS group on Facebook, and there is much discussionot, because you can comment on posts, talk live to people right there on FB and so on! I think that we should move from e-mail to other social media that is so much more interaction and people can talk back and forth live!

 

On Mon, May 17, 2021, 8:15 PM Larry Wayland <lhwayland@...> wrote:

That is the absolute truth!

Why do we even have these forms if every time someone ask a question they are told to go search on the internet?

Maybe some people like the contact with other people.  Nothing wrong with that. There is one person on here, and he is either on or has been on other forms who can’t answer a question without belittling everyone.  Too bad too because he is very knowledgeable.  Why not just answer the question and go on and don’t worry about all the other stuff. 

Larry

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 5:59 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

However, I sure could do without the preaching and belittling that takes place.

 

There is absolutely no reason to keep pointing out well if you did a google search you would of found out….

 

Shan, hope I spelled that correctly, JAWS does not go over your email address letter by letter.  Or, if it does I don’t know how to enable it.  What you describe at the top of this message is arrogance on the person making that comment.  It is talking down to someone. I don’t know if it was me or Google, however, I did a Google search for something and the info I was given was way off base. Thus I would prefer someone do the search for me. If they said, “Well if you did a google search you would of found out….” I ask someone else.       

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shan Noyes
Sent: May 17, 2021 3:06 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

Hi:

 

I also would like to know about the other jfw users list.  I’m happy to hear that the discussion stays on jaws issues more closely.

 

This group list has been pretty good. Some excellent info.  However, I sure could do without the preaching and belittling that takes place.

 

There is absolutely no reason to keep pointing out well if you did a google search you would of found out….

 

Because my approach is there is no dumb questions.  Besides who knows, maybe sure the answer is out on the net, but it was written by a either non jaws user or a sighted person who does use jaws a bit, but also has their screen on.

 

Note: Eric Danbery from Freedom Scientific is fully sighted, but he uses Jaws with his screen turned off to ensure that he is experiencing exactly what Jaws users who can not see the screen are experiencing.

 

It becomes very  important when one has to deal with complicated screen layouts.  Can a person who doesn’t see the screen easily get the information they need or not.

 

So I’ll also go check out the other list.  This list is also pretty good here, but please please everyone remember we are here to support each other.  Not to keep pointing out well if you did a google search….

 

Because the benefit of asking questions of people who use the speech program i.e. Jaws is that sometimes you will get special gems of short cuts etc from them.

 

Have a good day everyone.

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

-------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING, this email originated from outside of SaskTel.
Do not click links or open attachments unless you trust the sender and believe the contents are safe.
--------------------------------------------------------------

 

The other JFW list, the JFW-Users list, which was created in 2019 to replace the JAWS-Users list, which was abruptly shut down,  is more closely moderated and discussions that are not relevant to JAWS are not permitted.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/17/2021 4:37 PM, Ken Chernack via groups.io wrote:

Hi Gerald.

 

How does this new/alternative discussion list differ from the one we are using?

 

Are they similar? Same personalities on it? Do they complement each other?

 

Thanks for your assistance/knowledge.

Ken

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 3:07 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

 

The other list is called the JFW-Users list.  To subscribe, send a blank message to:

 

jfw-users+subscribe@groups.io

 

    Gerald

 

 

On 5/17/2021 12:48 PM, Justin Williams wrote:

 

 

What is the othe rlist called?

 

Justin

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:46 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

 

Also, the other list has stricter rules against personal attacks and member bashing.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/17/2021 4:35 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:



It's easy to get that list and this one mixed up, the other one is more strict about staying on the topic of Jaws.

Glenn

----- Original Message -----

From: CJ &AA MAY

Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 10:32 AM

Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

My apologies! You are right.

Alison

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 May 2021 16:10
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 10:47 AM, CJ &AA MAY wrote:

I beg to argue, James. I sent a message to the list asking for help as the menu options for my Dymo label printer were not being read a couple of weeks ago.

-
No, you did not.  You sent it to the JFW-Users Group.  Topic:  Dymo Label Printer
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide

NOTICE: This confidential e-mail message is only for the intended recipients. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that disclosing, copying, distributing, or any other use of this message, is strictly prohibited. In such case, please destroy this message and notify the sender.


moderated Re: Outlook Calendar over flow

Michal Nowicki
 

Pressing Enter on the overflow expands the view for that day, allowing to tab to each event.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Van Lant, Robin via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, April 27, 2021 9:26 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Outlook Calendar over flow

 

Don,

I am at a loss.  I just tried changing multiple types of settings in the calendar view and cannot replicate the issue you are having. I think this is a case where some sighted assistance to see if there is something odd with your layout would be smart. – whether that is taking advantage of the AIRA’s free JAWS help, Microsoft Accessibility, or Vispero.  I really wanted to save the day for  you, but cannot figure this one out.

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Outlook Calendar over flow

 

I’m using the day view and I always tab through each event on that day. For example, I know that I have four meetings tomorrow but when I tab, I get the first two and then get that over flow. Then it starts to try and look at the next day. It’s really quite a problem since I cannot see all my meetings and I almost missed one this morning.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Van Lant, Robin via groups.io
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 2:17 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: [External] : Re: Outlook Calendar over flow

 

Which view are you using?  I typically use Day View or week view and don’t think I get this message.  Note that it’s most efficient to use tab to move through appointments. 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: Monday, April 26, 2021 12:13 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Outlook Calendar over flow

 

WARNING: This email originated externally. Exercise caution. Think before clicking links or opening attachments.

 

Yes, the overflow is on the same date.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Stan Holdeman
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 6:41 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: [External] : Re: Outlook Calendar over flow

 

Are your start and stop dates the same?

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Don Mauck
Sent: Friday, April 16, 2021 4:26 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Outlook Calendar over flow

 

Hi, I’ve had this issue with my calendar where if I have more than two events on a certain day, I get the following message from JAWS and I cannot get to the next appointment for that day.

Message:  Overflow Button navigates to: Tuesday, April 27, 2021, from 12:00am to Wednesday, April 28, 2021 12:00am

I’m using Microsoft Outlook Subscription Version 16.0.12527.21504 any suggestions would be appreciated.

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moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

David Moore
 

There is a great JAWS group on Facebook, and there is much discussionot, because you can comment on posts, talk live to people right there on FB and so on! I think that we should move from ∈e-mail to other social media that is so much more interaction and people can talk back and forth live!


On Mon, May 17, 2021, 8:15 PM Larry Wayland <lhwayland@...> wrote:

That is the absolute truth!

Why do we even have these forms if every time someone ask a question they are told to go search on the internet?

Maybe some people like the contact with other people.  Nothing wrong with that. There is one person on here, and he is either on or has been on other forms who can’t answer a question without belittling everyone.  Too bad too because he is very knowledgeable.  Why not just answer the question and go on and don’t worry about all the other stuff. 

Larry

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 5:59 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

However, I sure could do without the preaching and belittling that takes place.

 

There is absolutely no reason to keep pointing out well if you did a google search you would of found out….

 

Shan, hope I spelled that correctly, JAWS does not go over your email address letter by letter.  Or, if it does I don’t know how to enable it.  What you describe at the top of this message is arrogance on the person making that comment.  It is talking down to someone. I don’t know if it was me or Google, however, I did a Google search for something and the info I was given was way off base. Thus I would prefer someone do the search for me. If they said, “Well if you did a google search you would of found out….” I ask someone else.       

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Shan Noyes
Sent: May 17, 2021 3:06 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

Hi:

 

I also would like to know about the other jfw users list.  I’m happy to hear that the discussion stays on jaws issues more closely.

 

This group list has been pretty good. Some excellent info.  However, I sure could do without the preaching and belittling that takes place.

 

There is absolutely no reason to keep pointing out well if you did a google search you would of found out….

 

Because my approach is there is no dumb questions.  Besides who knows, maybe sure the answer is out on the net, but it was written by a either non jaws user or a sighted person who does use jaws a bit, but also has their screen on.

 

Note: Eric Danbery from Freedom Scientific is fully sighted, but he uses Jaws with his screen turned off to ensure that he is experiencing exactly what Jaws users who can not see the screen are experiencing.

 

It becomes very  important when one has to deal with complicated screen layouts.  Can a person who doesn’t see the screen easily get the information they need or not.

 

So I’ll also go check out the other list.  This list is also pretty good here, but please please everyone remember we are here to support each other.  Not to keep pointing out well if you did a google search….

 

Because the benefit of asking questions of people who use the speech program i.e. Jaws is that sometimes you will get special gems of short cuts etc from them.

 

Have a good day everyone.

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 3:48 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

-------------------------------------------------------------
WARNING, this email originated from outside of SaskTel.
Do not click links or open attachments unless you trust the sender and believe the contents are safe.
--------------------------------------------------------------

 

The other JFW list, the JFW-Users list, which was created in 2019 to replace the JAWS-Users list, which was abruptly shut down,  is more closely moderated and discussions that are not relevant to JAWS are not permitted.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/17/2021 4:37 PM, Ken Chernack via groups.io wrote:

Hi Gerald.

 

How does this new/alternative discussion list differ from the one we are using?

 

Are they similar? Same personalities on it? Do they complement each other?

 

Thanks for your assistance/knowledge.

Ken

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 3:07 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

 

The other list is called the JFW-Users list.  To subscribe, send a blank message to:

 

jfw-users+subscribe@groups.io

 

    Gerald

 

 

On 5/17/2021 12:48 PM, Justin Williams wrote:

 

 

What is the othe rlist called?

 

Justin

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Gerald Levy via groups.io
Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 11:46 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

 

Also, the other list has stricter rules against personal attacks and member bashing.

 

Gerald

 

 

On 5/17/2021 4:35 PM, Glenn / Lenny wrote:



It's easy to get that list and this one mixed up, the other one is more strict about staying on the topic of Jaws.

Glenn

----- Original Message -----

From: CJ &AA MAY

Sent: Monday, May 17, 2021 10:32 AM

Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

My apologies! You are right.

Alison

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: 17 May 2021 16:10
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: My gripe about all the griping

 

On Mon, May 17, 2021 at 10:47 AM, CJ &AA MAY wrote:

I beg to argue, James. I sent a message to the list asking for help as the menu options for my Dymo label printer were not being read a couple of weeks ago.

-
No, you did not.  You sent it to the JFW-Users Group.  Topic:  Dymo Label Printer
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide

NOTICE: This confidential e-mail message is only for the intended recipients. If you are not the intended recipient, be advised that disclosing, copying, distributing, or any other use of this message, is strictly prohibited. In such case, please destroy this message and notify the sender.


moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

Marty Hutchings
 

Instead of Key stroke, maybe it should have been key strike.

On 5/18/2021 10:52 AM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 12:46 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
[In reference to the meaning of keystroke.] Sorry, but I'm not buying.
-
Sorry, darlin', but you're not buying the definition most commonly used for a word doesn't change the fact that it is its definition.

keystroke on Onelook.com

You're very simply not only being idiosyncratic, you're actually factually incorrect and muddying the waters.  Your opinion does not matter when it comes to commonly accepted definitions (and I hasten to add, nor does mine).  People use words as they're commonly defined to communicate shared meaning.  You don't get to pick your own. 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: JAWS And Microsoft Office 365 Spellings

Steven Hicks
 

Briliant, thanks, it was the shift+f10 that I was missing, I will give it a try.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Turner
Sent: 16 May 2021 15:55
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: JAWS And Microsoft Office 365 Spellings

 

If you put focus on the word, press shift+f10 or your applications key, and arrow up, Jaws may give you some spelling options.  If the word is too far off, then you would just have to try another spelling to get close enough to get suggestions.

If it shows the word you want, hit enter on it and it should replace the word in your document.

 

 

Richard

"The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what they become by it."

- John Ruskin, 1819-1900

 

Web site: www.turner42.com

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Steven Hicks
Sent: Sunday, May 16, 2021 7:28 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: JAWS And Microsoft Office 365 Spellings

 

Hi friends,

 

Can anyone just confirm how this works please, when I am typing and I make an error, there is a sound to indicate it, if there is an auto correct option how would I review that and accept it if it is the one I would like please?

 


moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

James Bentley
 

Brian, please don't take away my step by step directions. I'll jump in
front of a fast moving train. LOL.

And, is OSO an English word. An acronym? Or what?

Cheers,

James B

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Orlando Enrique
Fiol via groups.io
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 12:39 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

At 01:04 PM 5/18/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
>It is very difficult to get those who don't use screen readers to
>actually separate the concepts of "gain focus on" and "select" and
>"activate" because a single click on something gains you focus on it
>and selects it at a minimum. And in the case of doing so on a link,
>it does all three at one time. You most often get a sense of whether
>activation is involved as an atomic element of that click based on
>what the following instruction states. If it's something like, "Now,
>in the dialog that appears . . .," you can pretty much assume that a
>point and click instruction is an instance where all three actions
>were rolled into one single click.

Very well put. We should also assume that we'll handle selection
using cursoring keys: arrows, tab, shift+tab, etc. So, even if those
keys are never mentioned in instructions, we should try them all
until we actually move where we need to be.

>Another of my "things" is emphasizing that you (any you) must read
>through an instruction set completely before even setting out with the
>first one, and not just in computing. My own partner drives me
>insane because he doesn't do this routinely, and I can't count the
>number of times, when cooking, there's a big oso because an
>ingredient not mentioned in the ingredient list (it happens) isn't in
>the house or he skips something because he never read it through first
>and was in a rush.

Well, a recipe ingredient list should be completely comprehensive,
even if it indicates things such as "salt and pepper to taste" at the end.

>There are too many potential pitfalls in any
>complex instruction set, even those in step-by-step format, for it to
>be a good idea to start and hope you make it through unscathed without
>ever having read them first.


Better still, we need to move away from step-by-step instructions
because steps may vary considerably between user configurations and
*definitely* between Windows editions. just try to navigate to the
Advanced tab under Users and Groups in Windows Home. Not there!
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


moderated Re: Malwarebytes Tray Application

Andy
 

Or just hit ALT F4.

Andy

----- Original Message -----
From: "Tim Ford" <ttford@gmail.com>
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 11:03 AM
Subject: Re: Malwarebytes Tray Application


Yes there is a way to close that window. It pops up every time you boot your computer. Use alt + tab until JAWS announces the Megabytes window is in focus. Press alt + space bar, and up-arrow until you hear "close". Press enter and it is gone.

Tim Ford


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robbie Curtis
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 10:58 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: MalwareBytes Tray Application

Good Afternoon All,


For those of you using MalwareBytes, is there a way to get rid of the tray application window since it is not accessible? Thanks.


moderated Re: keystrokes

Richard Turner
 

Mariam Webster Dictionary:

Keystroke, Noun:

the act or an instance of depressing a key on a keyboard

 

 

 

Richard

"The highest reward for a person's toil is not what they get for it, but what they become by it."

- John Ruskin, 1819-1900

 

Web site: www.turner42.com

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 10:38 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: keystrokes

 

As a now long lost cyber-acquaintance used to say:  Context, Context, Context!!

Keystroke is unambiguous in computing terminology, which is what we're using on a group such as this.  Nothing you say can or will change that.  The untold millions of references to keystrokes in formal documentation are in no way unclear.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Malwarebytes Tray Application

Tim Ford
 

Yes there is a way to close that window. It pops up every time you boot your computer. Use alt + tab until JAWS announces the Megabytes window is in focus. Press alt + space bar, and up-arrow until you hear "close". Press enter and it is gone.

Tim Ford

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Robbie Curtis
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 10:58 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: MalwareBytes Tray Application

Good Afternoon All,


For those of you using MalwareBytes, is there a way to get rid of the tray application window since it is not accessible? Thanks.


moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 01:39 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Well, a recipe ingredient list should be completely comprehensive, even if it indicates things such as "salt and pepper to taste" at the end.
-
The following is said without a trace of snark at you, but at many recipe writers:  Should be and is are two distinctly different things.

I can think of an example in one of my favorite (and recently published) recipes for shrimp and grits.   For the grits part it gives you the measurements for the grits and the seasonings.  It's not until you get into the bowels of the recipe itself that it states, "Bring 4 1/2 cups of water to a boil in a medium saucepan and add a teaspoon of salt."  Neither the water, how much, or that particular bit of salt, is mentioned elsewhere.

This happens more than you'd think, but even I'll admit that it is an exception, rather than a rule.  But it's why I always read through a full instruction set first as a matter of principle, whether it's a recipe or not.  I'm ashamed to admit that the old saw, "One burned, twice shy," should read something like, "Burned one hundred and twenty five times, just cluing-in," when it comes to my all-to-slow adoption of this as standard practice.  And I should be ashamed, as I have no one to blame but myself for failing to be way quicker on the uptake.  One hundred deserved lashes with a wet noodle!
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide


moderated MalwareBytes Tray Application

Robbie Curtis
 

Good Afternoon All,


For those of you using MalwareBytes, is there a way to get rid of the tray application window since it is not accessible? Thanks.


moderated Re: [External] : Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 01:08 PM, Don Mauck wrote:
Another thing that gets over looked is that you are dealing with different disabilities besides just low vision. Cognitive issues being a prime example. That takes some understanding in how to write messages or instructions.
As a cognitive rehab therapist in a brain injury services program for six years, and a speech-language pathologist, don't I know it.

But no matter who is writing instructions, or when, they are writing for a presumed target audience.  If another audience happens to "get their hands on" that instruction set, and it's not ideal, that doesn't make the instructions "bad," just not intended for the user who's using them.

But I'm also not willing to go through my cyber life presuming that most that I meet have some sort of hidden disability, even on these groups.  Online, even more than in day to day interaction, no one can be the proverbial mind reader.  And if someone doesn't mention a given situation or circumstance that's relevant, there's no way that a random reader should presume something quite outside that great middle area of the bell curve within a given community.

I'll always assume "basically capable of pretty much anything most people can do" unless clued-in otherwise, with the exception of a stated disability.  I don't assume that someone who's blind can see, but I also assume that they're otherwise like most other folks I know other than in that respect.  And that's because the vast majority of individuals I've known who are blind have been just that. And that comes from working with these folks as my coworkers, clients, and, at one time, my young students.  That, and having one of my dearest friends having been blind since birth (she passed away this past January, but I knew her for years).
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: [External] : Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:08 PM 5/18/2021, Don Mauck wrote:
Another thing that gets over looked is that you are dealing with
different disabilities besides just low vision. Cognitive issues being
a prime example. That takes some understanding in how to write
messages or instructions.
That's very true, Don. However, as disabled people, we need to know what we need and how to ask for it, rather than assume that others are supposed to know and deliver it to us piping hot on silver platters. If someone is rattling off instructions such as, "click on the mixer icon and drag the dial to the desired track," I have to look out for my own needs and say, "Hold up, back up. That icon is probably unlabeled. Is it near any standard control to which I could navigate? Is there any alternative to dragging that dial? Do the arrows move it?"
So, if a cognitively-challenged person doesn't understand a portion of provided instructions, they have to step up and say/write, "I don't understand that. Please clarify," or even: "This makes no sense; can I call you and be walked through this?" Very likely, someone will be willing to do that, especially during these gradually reopening times. I sure am willing to help people by phone or audio/video chat, which is often more meaningful than email or text.


Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 01:04 PM 5/18/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
It is very difficult to get those who don't use screen readers to
actually separate the concepts of "gain focus on" and "select" and
"activate" because a single click on something gains you focus on it
and selects it at a minimum. And in the case of doing so on a link,
it does all three at one time. You most often get a sense of whether
activation is involved as an atomic element of that click based on
what the following instruction states. If it's something like, "Now,
in the dialog that appears . . .," you can pretty much assume that a
point and click instruction is an instance where all three actions
were rolled into one single click.
Very well put. We should also assume that we'll handle selection using cursoring keys: arrows, tab, shift+tab, etc. So, even if those keys are never mentioned in instructions, we should try them all until we actually move where we need to be.

Another of my "things" is emphasizing that you (any you) must read
through an instruction set completely before even setting out with the
first one, and not just in computing. My own partner drives me
insane because he doesn't do this routinely, and I can't count the
number of times, when cooking, there's a big oso because an
ingredient not mentioned in the ingredient list (it happens) isn't in
the house or he skips something because he never read it through first
and was in a rush.
Well, a recipe ingredient list should be completely comprehensive, even if it indicates things such as "salt and pepper to taste" at the end.

There are too many potential pitfalls in any
complex instruction set, even those in step-by-step format, for it to
be a good idea to start and hope you make it through unscathed without
ever having read them first.

Better still, we need to move away from step-by-step instructions because steps may vary considerably between user configurations and *definitely* between Windows editions. just try to navigate to the Advanced tab under Users and Groups in Windows Home. Not there!
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


moderated Re: keystrokes

 

As a now long lost cyber-acquaintance used to say:  Context, Context, Context!!

Keystroke is unambiguous in computing terminology, which is what we're using on a group such as this.  Nothing you say can or will change that.  The untold millions of references to keystrokes in formal documentation are in no way unclear.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: keystrokes

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

Sorry, darlin', but you're not buying the definition most commonly
used for a word doesn't change the fact that it is its definition.
Sorry, sweet cheeks, but thousands of English words have developed imprecise usages over time, acknowledged by reputable dictionaries.

keystroke on Onelook.com ( https://www.onelook.com/?w=keystroke )
You're very simply not only being idiosyncratic, you're actually
factually incorrect and muddying the waters. Your opinion does not
matter when it comes to commonly accepted definitions (and I hasten to
add, nor does mine). People use words as they're commonly defined to
communicate shared meaning. You don't get to pick your own.


Au contraire, mon frère. As a life-long pianist/keyboardist, the difference between stroking and pressing means silence or sound, full versus empty pockets. It ain't my fault that folks have conflated two verbs, press and stroke. That conflation doesn't become physiologically precise by fiat.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

Orlando Enrique Fiol
 

At 11:20 AM 5/18/2021, Brian Vogel wrote:
God bless you. I have been waiting for someone who is blind to say
this, and this clearly, for ages now. When I say it the response is
always hostile and generally met with some form of, "You're sighted,
so you don't understand." I am sighted, but I do understand, all too well.
Somewhat off topic, but analogous, I was "watching" the most recent episode of My 600-Pound Life last night. This week's subject was 39-year-old Chrystal, mother of two girls, 4'9" and 611 pounds. She lived in filth and squalor, immobile and depending on her daughters to cook, "clean" and wash her, to the point where our Iranian hero, Dr. Nowzardan, commented on her offensive body odor during her first appointment.
Anyway, throughout her lengthy, whiny narrative, she kept insisting that non-obese people don't understand food addiction, how much she *needs* food for comfort and to help her through unspeakable trauma. Well, as it turns out, Honey Pie, my beloved and I do indeed understand binge eating and food addiction. Except, rather than live in squalor with the highest BMI recorded on that TLC series, we did something about it and had bariatric surgery before we reached such critical obesity levels.
Digression aside, the point is, some people insist that no one understands in order to complain on the throne of their own pity party, as though understanding entails letting them off the hook from taking any action. They get bent out of shape when someone in their same situation uses their indisputable empathy to advocate for tangible change rather than justify incessant complaining.
Don't get me wrong, there are many aspects of my life that I cannot personally change, about which I complain and advocate whenever possible. But, rather than throw in the towel with things I can control, I especially relish opportunities to do for myself, to start from 0, work hard and proudly assert that victory is mine.

And even if someone is a neophyte, and does not know how to search for
information, the first thing they need to do is learn how, And those
who react negatively (including myself) to the asking of questions
such as, "What is aquamail?," will be glad to assist you in gaining
the skills you need if you don't have them. But when we say, "You
really should have done a search for that," we're not wrong.
you're not wrong, but admonishing them to search online before asking questions invariably takes up more characters than answering their questions, as your example below illustrates.

That's a real-world example of something that just passed by on another
list. Someone had mentioned using aquamail. The question itself,
if put in a search engine, any search engine, gets you the homepage
for the product as the first result, and the homepage for the product
answers all the basic questions one might have. The questioner
waited many hours for the one line answer, "It's an email client for
Android," then followed up with, "Does it run on the PC?," which I
answered with, "No," and gave a direct link to the AquaMail home
page. If someone can tell me why they think it's a kindness to allow
this sort of thing to drag out, over hours, multiple messages, and
multiple participants rather than saying, "You really need to have
done a web search before asking something like this," then I want
their rationale.
Fewer characters?

It certainly isn't kind from where I sit.
In any potential act of kindness, one must balance between the giver and receiver's perceptions. Were I to have gone to Chrystal's house and thrown out all her junk food, she likely would not have interpreted it as kindness even though it surely was.

And if you are someone who doesn't know how to do one, then the follow-up
should be, "I'm not good at that, would you help me."
As I explained to you privately, blindies have this peculiar trait; if we've spent our entire lives having our initiative smacked down, sabotaged or thwarted by uncontrollable circumstances, we often fail to take initiative when circumstances change to be in our favor. Someone who has always felt intimidated by the internet is going to hold fast to that belief rather than gradually prove to themselves that it's not that intimidating at all. This brings up one of my all-time pet peeves: Blindies are all too often rote trained for very specific tasks. If any variable in those tasks' execution changes, or if a new task is presented, they're literally lost because they lack general conceptual grounding within the framework in which that task is one of many.
The only skill necessary to perform online searches and make sense of their results is to master one's screen reader's and web browser's navigation keys. When I Google search, all I need is E, which moves me between edit fields, and H, which moves me between headings; that's how each search result is displayed. Since there's so little text in each search result's thumbnail presentation, navigating by textual unit with N or shift+N usually does little good. I occasionally arrow up and down to catch whatever text is included with each hit link, rather than continuous read, which can quickly get out of control, like a runaway freight train.
So yeah, yall, if you know how to type in an edit field and navigate by heading, yall can search for, I don't know, midgets in 19th-century Mongolian literature.

But in 2021 it is not unreasonable in any way, shape, or form to
presume that anyone, blind or sighted, that's an active participant on
a list such as this one doesn't already know how to do a web search
and review the results. There will be the rare complete newbie who
may not, but it would be insane to believe that most people you meet
in cyberspace don't already know how, and should consider when, too.
If anyone, anywhere, says to you, "You could have found that with a
web search," you had better considering that you are very likely in
the wrong for having asked a question that you could have easily found
the answer to yourself. That sort of response doesn't come from
asking complicated, or even just unusual, questions that don't have
thousands of ready-made answers that can be found with a simple web
search. I have never seen anyone, including my
much-hated-in-these-venues self, say that to anyone asking a question
that doesn't have a dirt simple answer that has often been answered
both here, and on the web, literally thousands to hundreds of
thousands to times in total and that can be found with fewer words in
a search than the message asking took to type out. That matters.

Okay, let's address the time/speed issue. Part of many blind computer users' fundamental feeling of intimidation is the unfathomable quantity of information being thrown at them. Their solution is often to try and suppress as much information as possible, which can be dangerous. As an easy example, suppressing notifications would "blind" you to a warning about a program you really need, such as your screen reader, that your antivirus deems malicious and will either quarantine or remove. If you happen to activate this notification mistakenly and again happen to activate the Remove button, your entire computer access is kaput.
So, no, suppressing information is not the way to go. The way to go, dear friends, is *directed listening*. The most important skill with a screen reader is knowing what to listen for. If you don't hear that, or something related to that, keep it moving.
When you first open Google, you don't need to hear "I'm feeling lucky" or "I'm feeling hungry," Advertising, Business or "Google for Everyone". In fact, in Chrome and Edge, every screen reader places you right in the edit field where you'll type your search. So, if your screen reader is not reporting control type and state information, turn that stuff on right now! There is also a wonderful Chromium extension called Chrome Sound Effects. It's like web Sonic, previously discussed here, except that it covers browser events that Web Sonic does not, including a typing sound for input fields.
Since I have that extension installed, if I type even one character and don't hear that manual typewriter sound, I know that my focus ain't in the edit field. If that extension is on, I press enter on a link and don't hear the click of a new page loading, I kknow the friggin page never loaded.
Anyway, all you gotta do is type your search term in that edit field and press enter, which activates the Search button. You can also tab just once to it and press space or enter. Once the result page loads, navigate by heading using H until you hear "Search Results" or "Displaying Search Results". Don't let the new page read, even if your screen reader is configured to do so; mine is because I prefer being able to silence speech with the control key, something I can quickly do with one finger, than invoke continuous reading, for which I need two fingers.
Anyway, *Directed Listening* tells me that I want to hear "Search Results for..." the stuff I just typed in the search field on the previous page. If I don't hear that, I navigate by heading or text unit until I do. If I get really frustrated, I go back a page with alt+left-arrow, retype my search terms, reload the results page and move by heading until my results appear. For each result I want to read, I press enter and navigate the new page. I then return to the previous page and navigate by heading for the next result, rinse and repeat until my question is answered or I throw up both jazz hands in resigned frustration.
Folks, that's all yall need to do online searches: something to type in the search field, and some simple web navigation skills.
If any of you don't know how to navigate a web page by textual unit, heading, frame, control, edit field, check box, etc., bone up on that or ask us old heads. And, above all, when we answer your questions with phrases such as, "JAWS will say: ..." that's probably the most important information we're providing, because, it may take two or five tab presses to get to that Change button. It might take seven down-arrows because your lis box has more items than mine. But, what your screen reader needs to say is the same in everyone's Windows dialogues and in everyone's application windows using identical versions.
OK, over and out. Point and click.
Orlando Enrique Fiol
Charlotte, North Carolina
Professional Pianist/Keyboardist, Percussionist and Pedagogue
Ph.D. in Music theory
University of Pennsylvania: November, 2018
Home: (980) 585-1516
Mobile: (267) 971-7090


moderated Re: [External] : Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

Don Mauck
 

Another thing that gets over looked is that you are dealing with different disabilities besides just low vision. Cognitive issues being a prime example. That takes some understanding in how to write messages or instructions.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Tuesday, May 18, 2021 11:04 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: [External] : Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 12:46 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:

Sightling instructions tend not to specify in which type of control environment the desired item is located. As such, the true action taken by clicks can be ambiguous. In list views, pointing at items doesn't actually select them; it only brings focus to them, whereas clicking actually selects them.

-
You'll get no argument from me there.  But I never said there are no ambiguities, and that's a lesson I've learned about writing instructions once I got into the screen reader world.  But writing out the control I'm talking about is dirt simple, so I now do.  But I get why those who are writing for a target audience they presume can see, when discussing a graphical user interface, omit words in favor of pictures.   I have scads of old instruction sets I wrote prior to using alt-text routinely for graphics where the graphic itself makes it immediately obvious to the viewer what's being talked about.  I now try to avoid both relying strictly on graphics, including the necessary specifics, and include alt-text for the graphics even if that's just something along the lines of, "Selecting the {insert specific thing here}," as the description.

It is very difficult to get those who don't use screen readers to actually separate the concepts of "gain focus on" and "select" and "activate" because a single click on something gains you focus on it and selects it at a minimum.  And in the case of doing so on a link, it does all three at one time.  You most often get a sense of whether activation is involved as an atomic element of that click based on what the following instruction states.  If it's something like, "Now, in the dialog that appears . . .," you can pretty much assume that a point and click instruction is an instance where all three actions were rolled into one single click.  

Another of my "things" is emphasizing that you (any you) must read through an instruction set completely before even setting out with the first one, and not just in computing.  My own partner drives me insane because he doesn't do this routinely, and I can't count the number of times, when cooking, there's a big oops because an ingredient not mentioned in the ingredient list (it happens) isn't in the house or he skips something because he never read it through first and was in a rush.  There are too many potential pitfalls in any complex instruction set, even those in step-by-step format, for it to be a good idea to start and hope you make it through unscathed without ever having read them first.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: more about another jfw list discussion list

 

On Tue, May 18, 2021 at 12:46 PM, Orlando Enrique Fiol wrote:
Sightling instructions tend not to specify in which type of control environment the desired item is located. As such, the true action taken by clicks can be ambiguous. In list views, pointing at items doesn't actually select them; it only brings focus to them, whereas clicking actually selects them.
-
You'll get no argument from me there.  But I never said there are no ambiguities, and that's a lesson I've learned about writing instructions once I got into the screen reader world.  But writing out the control I'm talking about is dirt simple, so I now do.  But I get why those who are writing for a target audience they presume can see, when discussing a graphical user interface, omit words in favor of pictures.   I have scads of old instruction sets I wrote prior to using alt-text routinely for graphics where the graphic itself makes it immediately obvious to the viewer what's being talked about.  I now try to avoid both relying strictly on graphics, including the necessary specifics, and include alt-text for the graphics even if that's just something along the lines of, "Selecting the {insert specific thing here}," as the description.

It is very difficult to get those who don't use screen readers to actually separate the concepts of "gain focus on" and "select" and "activate" because a single click on something gains you focus on it and selects it at a minimum.  And in the case of doing so on a link, it does all three at one time.  You most often get a sense of whether activation is involved as an atomic element of that click based on what the following instruction states.  If it's something like, "Now, in the dialog that appears . . .," you can pretty much assume that a point and click instruction is an instance where all three actions were rolled into one single click.  

Another of my "things" is emphasizing that you (any you) must read through an instruction set completely before even setting out with the first one, and not just in computing.  My own partner drives me insane because he doesn't do this routinely, and I can't count the number of times, when cooking, there's a big oops because an ingredient not mentioned in the ingredient list (it happens) isn't in the house or he skips something because he never read it through first and was in a rush.  There are too many potential pitfalls in any complex instruction set, even those in step-by-step format, for it to be a good idea to start and hope you make it through unscathed without ever having read them first.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not.

           ~ André Gide

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