Date   

moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 11:22 AM, David Diamond wrote:
I think there are a lot of techs  who can’t think outside the box. If it’s not written down they’ve got no clue.
-
Absolutely.  And it isn't just support techs.

But it really does amaze me that there are certain people who remain in the business for years, yet never develop the ability to move beyond the walls of that box.  One of the things that separates a great technician from the rest is to take the sum of their work history and use that to make great leaps when the opportunity presents itself.  You should be able to get a "Spidey Sense" about what's going on even with incomplete, and possibly partially incorrect, information and explore that immediately rather than spending ungodly amounts of time stepping someone through "the script."  A great many never can.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

To think is to differ.
      ~ Clarence Darrow


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Vaughn Brown
 

I recall when they were helping me install Windows 10 they deleted the operating system for Mac which completely made the computer useless. Then they said, cheerfully, “you now have Windows 10, enjoy”.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 8:22 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

The other thing is too, I think there are a lot of techs  who can’t think outside the box. If it’s not written down they’ve got no clue. A while back I talked to a tech because I needed something done, she fixed what needed to be done and I asked her why her co-workers could not do it.  She said sometimes if they don’t know how to do it, they just say, “We don’t do that, or it can’t be done.”  Which gets back to an earlier comment about not even trying. I’m not sure if I buy the reasoning of blaming the company for these people who are incapable of understanding what we want or need. Does the company go to these people’s houses and drag them out of their bed so they can work for the company? Now, I’m being facetious.       

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Wood
Sent: March 6, 2021 11:34 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hello,

Chip on my shoulder? I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic with that or not.

As a blind person/person with a disability, I am simply explaining what I have seen again and again, especially as it relates to the real world.

This goes well above and beyond accessibility. It is a question of how we interact with those around us and how one action by one person in our demographic, as it were, can change how we are viewed by general society. I am a very patient individual who is willing to educate, explain, and generally attempt to verse a person on what would help me accomplish a task, and I like to try and encourage those in similar situations to do likewise. I’m not a fan of yelling and screaming without identifying information on what  would make a product more accessible, make me as a person more or less comfortable, and encourage those around me to treat me as a normal every day person in a way that educates and helps them understand where I am coming from.

I am also willing to view our shortcomings – and that is to say we, as blind individuals, tend to do the exact same thing as those sighted people around us. Thus, we do not understand where *they* are coming from, at times, regardless of their explanations. Someone can try and explain time and time again what colors look like, but I will never understand it, apart from the most general sense.

 

Thus, if there are lights flashing on a router, and as that is how the tech support is trained to troubleshoot issues, yes, I am more than willing to try and get sighted help. In the real world, agents, and companies, would like to train people in a similar vein so there are no inconsistencies. This isn’t a slight against me. This is simple fact – much as I dislike it. I’m not going to refuse to do something because I need to reach out and ask for help, and that’s what I take issue with. It also very much depends on the support agent in question. I remember calling Netflix a while ago regarding a Talkback issue on Android. I ended up getting transferred right up the chain. By the last call of the evening, I had a gentlemen on the line who was willing to go above and beyond what his training provided. He ran talkback, took the time to ask me questions on how to navigate with it, and we went through the issues I was having together. This was after countless phone calls with support agents who continuously used every day references – click the three dots at the top right, etc etc. As much as we may think it may be their job to know our technology, we must also take into consideration that we need to have a general understanding of the terms they use so we can better help the person on the end of the line help us. That is, also, simple fact, and not a slight against us. It sounds easy now in hindsight, but patience can truly make or break these types of things. Take a few deep breaths, remember that the agent is simply trying their best to help.

 

Regarding agents from other countries – or who I struggle to understand – this can definitely add some frustration. They may be trying to tell me something and I am not understanding, or vice versa. It is not a slight against them, it is a slight against the company. The company put them in this situation, and thus me, too.

That being said, I’ve had some truly enlightening conversations that resulted in software or firmware fixes with those across the pond, as it were, so I’d also encourage not immediately dismissing them and explaining your issue as best you are able.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 1:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Tyler Wood, it almost sounds like you are implying the blind have a chip on their shoulder by your verbiage.  My hard of hearing cousin had an expression which is almost verbatim what you said, “Yell and scream and you will get whatever you want!” I enjoy groups like this because it debunks the idea that I was told years ago by a blind person.  “David, you have to realize that most blind people have no life and all they do is post emails to groups.”   

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Leedy Diane Bomar
Sent: March 6, 2021 7:30 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

 

 Diane Bomar


On Mar 6, 2021, at 15:32, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:



Hi,

My $.02.

Part of my job involves meeting with customers and showing them, via my screen and audio, how my screen reader interacts with various content be it a website, an application, or something in between.

People don’t generally encounter blind or visually impaired individuals. Demanding that someone immediately cater to your needs without attempting to educate that person is worse than the person trying to help using visual landmarks. We are the minority. We must help educate, even if we want an issue fixed right away. You can do a great deal to broaden someone’s understanding of what you’re dealing with by attempting to explain where you are on the screen, what your screen reader is speaking, what you expect to happen and what is actually happening. Demanding that you want to speak to someone who can talk to you in nonvisual lingo isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself, because that person will not be able to help the next person who comes along and does not get educated about how to go about conducting themselves with someone who can’t see. It’s a missed opportunity on both sides. You’d be surprised what doesn’t cross someone’s mind and they take for granted.

Is it frustrating? You bet it is. It’s also empowering to help someone understand alternate views on certain aspects of life in general, the issues faced with regards to accessibility and the methods in which they can be alleviated. Hint: yelling, screaming and demanding fixes nothing, apart from making companies less apt to work with us.

I think several also forget that, just because you’re calling the disability support line, doesn’t mean your disability is the only one out there. There are tons of others that are equally misrepresented or unaccounted for.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of E.M. Kirtley
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When speech output was relatively new, I worked as a systems analyst at a local utility company. The VP of that department, I suspect hired me just for the excuse of buying a talking IBM terminal. I was expected to be prepared, without notice, to make it read the pledge of allegiance to anyone he brought to my office. They did not like it as much if I turned off the screen.

 

 

We must educate society, and insist on full inclusion. What really gets to me is the seeming assumption that I have to have a sighted person readily available, and that if that is the case I would not have already asked for their assistance if eyes would solve the problem. I need to know how to solve issues, by myself, for future problems of that nature.

 

 

Amazon Kindle tech support should know, for instance, how one turns speech output on/off. Two years ago, they insisted that I had to have "sighted assistance" which, of course, is untrue. I went round and round with them for over an hour before figuring it out for myself.


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Richard B. McDonald
 

Indeed!

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2021 9:11 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 02:02 AM, David Diamond wrote:

implying the blind have a chip on their shoulder

-
Some do.  Note, I said some, but it becomes pretty obvious, pretty quickly, who falls into that demographic.  In my opinion, Mr. Spivey doesn't.

I have no compunction about saying that there are plenty of chips out there, and most are because the world is not exactly as they want it, and not only that, can't ever be as they want it.

There's a difference between trying to explain why things are the way they are, stating that further change is needed and can be made, but that the fantasy world that's being sought will never occur and saying, "Shut up and be happy with what you've got."

There really is a Grand Scheme of Things, and when you're part of a minority (mine happens to be being gay) you should learn very quickly that the world is never going to cater precisely as you might like to "your tribe" because "your tribe" is a very tiny part of the whole.  

It also helps to realize when "your tribe" has outsized influence relative to numbers.  And when it comes to the world of computing, accessibility, and the blind, the community's influence is hugely outsized compared to your actual numbers.  I've said before, and I'll say again, accessibility is not a money maker, at least not directly.  But the public relations benefits (and, lets admit this too, the penalties that would be incurred for saying "screw you, blind people" if you're a major in the business) for developing an accessibility focus and having dedicated support is huge.  Worth it's weight in gold in places where it can matter a lot, which is not with the general public, really, as prior comments in this topic clearly indicate.

That doesn't mean things are perfect, or cannot use a lot of improvement.  It does mean plaints about being ignored, no one caring about making things better, and the like are pure, unadulterated BS.  I lived through the periods in computing where accessibility wasn't even thought of, where it became grudgingly thought about as an after thought (at best) and badly reverse-engineered, became thought about at design (but infrequently), to the point where it is now taught as part of computer science programs and is built-in to most large scale newly developed software.  That's an absolutely tectonic shift.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

To think is to differ.
      ~ Clarence Darrow


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sun, Mar 7, 2021 at 02:02 AM, David Diamond wrote:
implying the blind have a chip on their shoulder
-
Some do.  Note, I said some, but it becomes pretty obvious, pretty quickly, who falls into that demographic.  In my opinion, Mr. Spivey doesn't.

I have no compunction about saying that there are plenty of chips out there, and most are because the world is not exactly as they want it, and not only that, can't ever be as they want it.

There's a difference between trying to explain why things are the way they are, stating that further change is needed and can be made, but that the fantasy world that's being sought will never occur and saying, "Shut up and be happy with what you've got."

There really is a Grand Scheme of Things, and when you're part of a minority (mine happens to be being gay) you should learn very quickly that the world is never going to cater precisely as you might like to "your tribe" because "your tribe" is a very tiny part of the whole.  

It also helps to realize when "your tribe" has outsized influence relative to numbers.  And when it comes to the world of computing, accessibility, and the blind, the community's influence is hugely outsized compared to your actual numbers.  I've said before, and I'll say again, accessibility is not a money maker, at least not directly.  But the public relations benefits (and, lets admit this too, the penalties that would be incurred for saying "screw you, blind people" if you're a major in the business) for developing an accessibility focus and having dedicated support is huge.  Worth it's weight in gold in places where it can matter a lot, which is not with the general public, really, as prior comments in this topic clearly indicate.

That doesn't mean things are perfect, or cannot use a lot of improvement.  It does mean plaints about being ignored, no one caring about making things better, and the like are pure, unadulterated BS.  I lived through the periods in computing where accessibility wasn't even thought of, where it became grudgingly thought about as an after thought (at best) and badly reverse-engineered, became thought about at design (but infrequently), to the point where it is now taught as part of computer science programs and is built-in to most large scale newly developed software.  That's an absolutely tectonic shift.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

To think is to differ.
      ~ Clarence Darrow


moderated Re: Problem when in Outlook 2016

Richard Turner
 

No, but this sounds like something Microsoft Accessibility could help with by logging in with you through their support app and figure out what is happening.

It sounds like maybe more than one instance of outlook is trying to run or something equally odd.

 

 

 

Richard

 

Ralph's Observation:  It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object<>to realize that you are in a hurry.

 

 

My web site, www.turner42.com

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of kevin meyers
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 8:25 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Problem when in Outlook 2016

 

Hello,

Since the most recent version of Jaws 2021 Outlook has been acting weird. I’m using windows10 and Outlook 2016 most recent versions. I will be in Outlook 2016 and out of the clear blue it looks like I’m taken out of Outlook. I have to switch windows back to Outlook. Then a few minutes later Outlook freezes and email I had deleted return to the inbox. Then Outlook seems to have multiple windows open as I decide to close Outlook and emails I never opened are now open. I have to press alt F4 closing out of emails as escape doesn’t work. Then I close out of a window that has Outlook open and it looks like I’m then in another window of Outlook. Then a number of times the short cut on the desk stop disappears and I have to add it. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks, Kevin


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

The fact is that these support agents are in their own country, if you don't like the fact that Microsoft outsources their support to countries like India and the Philippines the complain to them.

In any case, very rarely do you get somebody whose English is truly bad, they typically don't get the job if they are not profficient but of course they do often have a bit of an accent, but then again there are places in the US where people have a harder to understand accent than 99% of the support agents from India or the Philippines. And, by the way, if you had your narrow-minded wish and all the foreign workers who work here in Canada and the US were sent home our economies would collapse utterly.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mich Verrier
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 10:52 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I have a problem when calling these places and get to some one who can hardly speek English and who lives in indiea or some forin place like that to me if you can’t speek English or hardly can then go back to your oan contrey. Also I am worried when working with ms accessibillidey that they are always going to screw something up when they want to fix your pc remotely. From Mich.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
Sent: March 6, 2021 1:40 PMi am always worried when working with ms disibillidey desk that they are going to screw up my pc when they ae wanting to remotely access it. From Mich.
To:I have a problem when I call places and get transferd to some one who hardly knows English sorry but if you don’t know English then get another job or move back to your oan contrey. That is just my thoughts on this also as far as working with the Microsoft disibillidey desk I have had no problums with them in the past how ever I am always worried when they start messing around with y pc that they are going to screw something up. From Mich.
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

-
Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Problem when in Outlook 2016

kevin meyers
 

Hello,

Since the most recent version of Jaws 2021 Outlook has been acting weird. I’m using windows10 and Outlook 2016 most recent versions. I will be in Outlook 2016 and out of the clear blue it looks like I’m taken out of Outlook. I have to switch windows back to Outlook. Then a few minutes later Outlook freezes and email I had deleted return to the inbox. Then Outlook seems to have multiple windows open as I decide to close Outlook and emails I never opened are now open. I have to press alt F4 closing out of emails as escape doesn’t work. Then I close out of a window that has Outlook open and it looks like I’m then in another window of Outlook. Then a number of times the short cut on the desk stop disappears and I have to add it. Has anyone experienced this problem? Thanks, Kevin


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

David Diamond
 

The other thing is too, I think there are a lot of techs  who can’t think outside the box. If it’s not written down they’ve got no clue. A while back I talked to a tech because I needed something done, she fixed what needed to be done and I asked her why her co-workers could not do it.  She said sometimes if they don’t know how to do it, they just say, “We don’t do that, or it can’t be done.”  Which gets back to an earlier comment about not even trying. I’m not sure if I buy the reasoning of blaming the company for these people who are incapable of understanding what we want or need. Does the company go to these people’s houses and drag them out of their bed so they can work for the company? Now, I’m being facetious.       

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Tyler Wood
Sent: March 6, 2021 11:34 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hello,

Chip on my shoulder? I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic with that or not.

As a blind person/person with a disability, I am simply explaining what I have seen again and again, especially as it relates to the real world.

This goes well above and beyond accessibility. It is a question of how we interact with those around us and how one action by one person in our demographic, as it were, can change how we are viewed by general society. I am a very patient individual who is willing to educate, explain, and generally attempt to verse a person on what would help me accomplish a task, and I like to try and encourage those in similar situations to do likewise. I’m not a fan of yelling and screaming without identifying information on what  would make a product more accessible, make me as a person more or less comfortable, and encourage those around me to treat me as a normal every day person in a way that educates and helps them understand where I am coming from.

I am also willing to view our shortcomings – and that is to say we, as blind individuals, tend to do the exact same thing as those sighted people around us. Thus, we do not understand where *they* are coming from, at times, regardless of their explanations. Someone can try and explain time and time again what colors look like, but I will never understand it, apart from the most general sense.

 

Thus, if there are lights flashing on a router, and as that is how the tech support is trained to troubleshoot issues, yes, I am more than willing to try and get sighted help. In the real world, agents, and companies, would like to train people in a similar vein so there are no inconsistencies. This isn’t a slight against me. This is simple fact – much as I dislike it. I’m not going to refuse to do something because I need to reach out and ask for help, and that’s what I take issue with. It also very much depends on the support agent in question. I remember calling Netflix a while ago regarding a Talkback issue on Android. I ended up getting transferred right up the chain. By the last call of the evening, I had a gentlemen on the line who was willing to go above and beyond what his training provided. He ran talkback, took the time to ask me questions on how to navigate with it, and we went through the issues I was having together. This was after countless phone calls with support agents who continuously used every day references – click the three dots at the top right, etc etc. As much as we may think it may be their job to know our technology, we must also take into consideration that we need to have a general understanding of the terms they use so we can better help the person on the end of the line help us. That is, also, simple fact, and not a slight against us. It sounds easy now in hindsight, but patience can truly make or break these types of things. Take a few deep breaths, remember that the agent is simply trying their best to help.

 

Regarding agents from other countries – or who I struggle to understand – this can definitely add some frustration. They may be trying to tell me something and I am not understanding, or vice versa. It is not a slight against them, it is a slight against the company. The company put them in this situation, and thus me, too.

That being said, I’ve had some truly enlightening conversations that resulted in software or firmware fixes with those across the pond, as it were, so I’d also encourage not immediately dismissing them and explaining your issue as best you are able.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 1:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Tyler Wood, it almost sounds like you are implying the blind have a chip on their shoulder by your verbiage.  My hard of hearing cousin had an expression which is almost verbatim what you said, “Yell and scream and you will get whatever you want!” I enjoy groups like this because it debunks the idea that I was told years ago by a blind person.  “David, you have to realize that most blind people have no life and all they do is post emails to groups.”   

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Leedy Diane Bomar
Sent: March 6, 2021 7:30 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

 

 Diane Bomar


On Mar 6, 2021, at 15:32, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:



Hi,

My $.02.

Part of my job involves meeting with customers and showing them, via my screen and audio, how my screen reader interacts with various content be it a website, an application, or something in between.

People don’t generally encounter blind or visually impaired individuals. Demanding that someone immediately cater to your needs without attempting to educate that person is worse than the person trying to help using visual landmarks. We are the minority. We must help educate, even if we want an issue fixed right away. You can do a great deal to broaden someone’s understanding of what you’re dealing with by attempting to explain where you are on the screen, what your screen reader is speaking, what you expect to happen and what is actually happening. Demanding that you want to speak to someone who can talk to you in nonvisual lingo isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself, because that person will not be able to help the next person who comes along and does not get educated about how to go about conducting themselves with someone who can’t see. It’s a missed opportunity on both sides. You’d be surprised what doesn’t cross someone’s mind and they take for granted.

Is it frustrating? You bet it is. It’s also empowering to help someone understand alternate views on certain aspects of life in general, the issues faced with regards to accessibility and the methods in which they can be alleviated. Hint: yelling, screaming and demanding fixes nothing, apart from making companies less apt to work with us.

I think several also forget that, just because you’re calling the disability support line, doesn’t mean your disability is the only one out there. There are tons of others that are equally misrepresented or unaccounted for.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of E.M. Kirtley
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When speech output was relatively new, I worked as a systems analyst at a local utility company. The VP of that department, I suspect hired me just for the excuse of buying a talking IBM terminal. I was expected to be prepared, without notice, to make it read the pledge of allegiance to anyone he brought to my office. They did not like it as much if I turned off the screen.

 

 

We must educate society, and insist on full inclusion. What really gets to me is the seeming assumption that I have to have a sighted person readily available, and that if that is the case I would not have already asked for their assistance if eyes would solve the problem. I need to know how to solve issues, by myself, for future problems of that nature.

 

 

Amazon Kindle tech support should know, for instance, how one turns speech output on/off. Two years ago, they insisted that I had to have "sighted assistance" which, of course, is untrue. I went round and round with them for over an hour before figuring it out for myself.


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Jaws versions install separately from each other, just unload Jaws after you log in, then run Jaws 2021 and once it is running go to Options > Basic > Automatically Start Jaws and make your selections for what happens at the login screen and after login.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Albert Cutolo
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 7:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Good morning Milton, 

 

I have two Icons on my desktop for Jaws.  One says, Jaws2020, and the other Icon says jaws2021.  I realize that this is  short notice, But I’m available for you to help now, that is, if your available.  My landline phone number is as follows.  212 (366-6748)  If there is a charge for your help,  let me know by sending an email message.    t

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 9:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

If you are interested in allowing me to do a tandam into your computer, I’d glad to help fix the problem. I think that you have an older version of JAWS that is starting up when you first turn on your computer.

 

If you are interested in the tandam contact me via this e-mail address to arrange the connection. I’m not busy this afternoon and I’m in central time.

 

Milton Ota

Mota1252@...

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Albert Cutolo
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 7:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Good morning Milton and Richard,

I’m supposed to be running Jaws 2021 on my laptop computer along with windows 10. When the last two updates came along, Like the one the was posted on January 19th, and the last update that was posted on February,  I installed them by going too the check for updates and installed them in the normal way.  Now, when I go to my desktop and enter on one of my Icons like outlook, or any of the others that are on their, it doesn’t say too edit the selected item, press f2.  Second,  Their’s no voice assistant that’s supposed to come up when I press the insert or jaws key the alt key and the spacebar, which is supposed too automatically bringup the voice assistant.  Third, when I go too where it says Jaws home manual and go to the utilities menu and arrow down to the settings senter,and arrow down to where it says, users, and then open it with the right arrow too open it, their’s no item there for me to enable a setting for me to enable voice assistant. The first item that comes up in   the users section says, progress messages  anouncement five second intervols. The next item says,      typing echo caracters.  Well, I thin you’ll get the picture. 

 

I don’t want too keep calling them and have them think that I’m some kind of nut who justwants attention.      

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:20 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

It would be very helpful if you were to give us more detailed description of your problem by telling us if you are using the most recent update of JAWS, if you are running Windows 10 and what did tech support at Vispero/Freedom Scientific do to fix the problem.

 

Doing this will keep the clutter and flood of e-mail messages going back and forth to try and help.

 

 

Milton Ota

ICAN Island Computer Access Now

4273 Coventry Dr., S.

Unit E

Fargo, ND 58104-4498

 

Ph: (701) 731-0511

Email: mota1252@...

 

               

 


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Richard Turner
 

Albert,

I pasted parts of your message below to give context to my responses.

But, first, when you press insert+j hit insert+control+v and make sure you are running Jaws 2021.

If so, read on.  If not, you have the wrong version starting when you start your computer.

 

You said: Now, when I go to my desktop and enter on one of my Icons like outlook, or any of the others that are on their, it doesn’t say too edit the selected item, press f2. 

I have never heard it say that but my settings are for the very least chatter from Jaws.

If you want those messages back, Open the Jaws settings with insert+j, select basic settings and hit enter.  These settings are about the jaws messages, you want it to say: Announce menu and control help radio button‑ checked‑ item

Arrow to that item and hit enter.

You said: Second,  Their’s no voice assistant that’s supposed to come up when I press the insert or jaws key the alt key and the spacebar, which is supposed too automatically bringup the voice assistant.  Third, when I go too where it says Jaws home manual and go to the utilities menu and arrow down to the settings senter,and arrow down to where it says, users, and then open it with the right arrow too open it, their’s no item there for me to enable a setting for me to enable voice assistant. The first item that comes up in   the users section says, progress messages  anouncement five second intervols. The next

 

You don’t want to be in the user section to get the Voice Assistant settings, press insert+j, go to the utility submenu, and the first item should be Voice Assistant.

It sounds like it got disabled.

 

 

Richard

 

Ralph's Observation:  It is a mistake to allow any mechanical object<>to realize that you are in a hurry.

 

 

My web site, www.turner42.com

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Albert Cutolo
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 5:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Good morning Milton and Richard,

I’m supposed to be running Jaws 2021 on my laptop computer along with windows 10. When the last two updates came along, Like the one the was posted on January 19th, and the last update that was posted on February,  I installed them by going too the check for updates and installed them in the normal way.  Now, when I go to my desktop and enter on one of my Icons like outlook, or any of the others that are on their, it doesn’t say too edit the selected item, press f2.  Second,  Their’s no voice assistant that’s supposed to come up when I press the insert or jaws key the alt key and the spacebar, which is supposed too automatically bringup the voice assistant.  Third, when I go too where it says Jaws home manual and go to the utilities menu and arrow down to the settings senter,and arrow down to where it says, users, and then open it with the right arrow too open it, their’s no item there for me to enable a setting for me to enable voice assistant. The first item that comes up in   the users section says, progress messages  anouncement five second intervols. The next item says,      typing echo caracters.  Well, I thin you’ll get the picture. 

 

I don’t want too keep calling them and have them think that I’m some kind of nut who justwants attention.      

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:20 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

It would be very helpful if you were to give us more detailed description of your problem by telling us if you are using the most recent update of JAWS, if you are running Windows 10 and what did tech support at Vispero/Freedom Scientific do to fix the problem.

 

Doing this will keep the clutter and flood of e-mail messages going back and forth to try and help.

 

 

Milton Ota

ICAN Island Computer Access Now

4273 Coventry Dr., S.

Unit E

Fargo, ND 58104-4498

 

Ph: (701) 731-0511

Email: mota1252@...

 

               

 


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Albert Cutolo
 

Good morning Milton, 

 

I have two Icons on my desktop for Jaws.  One says, Jaws2020, and the other Icon says jaws2021.  I realize that this is  short notice, But I’m available for you to help now, that is, if your available.  My landline phone number is as follows.  212 (366-6748)  If there is a charge for your help,  let me know by sending an email message.    t

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 9:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

If you are interested in allowing me to do a tandam into your computer, I’d glad to help fix the problem. I think that you have an older version of JAWS that is starting up when you first turn on your computer.

 

If you are interested in the tandam contact me via this e-mail address to arrange the connection. I’m not busy this afternoon and I’m in central time.

 

Milton Ota

Mota1252@...

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Albert Cutolo
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 7:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Good morning Milton and Richard,

I’m supposed to be running Jaws 2021 on my laptop computer along with windows 10. When the last two updates came along, Like the one the was posted on January 19th, and the last update that was posted on February,  I installed them by going too the check for updates and installed them in the normal way.  Now, when I go to my desktop and enter on one of my Icons like outlook, or any of the others that are on their, it doesn’t say too edit the selected item, press f2.  Second,  Their’s no voice assistant that’s supposed to come up when I press the insert or jaws key the alt key and the spacebar, which is supposed too automatically bringup the voice assistant.  Third, when I go too where it says Jaws home manual and go to the utilities menu and arrow down to the settings senter,and arrow down to where it says, users, and then open it with the right arrow too open it, their’s no item there for me to enable a setting for me to enable voice assistant. The first item that comes up in   the users section says, progress messages  anouncement five second intervols. The next item says,      typing echo caracters.  Well, I thin you’ll get the picture. 

 

I don’t want too keep calling them and have them think that I’m some kind of nut who justwants attention.      

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:20 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

It would be very helpful if you were to give us more detailed description of your problem by telling us if you are using the most recent update of JAWS, if you are running Windows 10 and what did tech support at Vispero/Freedom Scientific do to fix the problem.

 

Doing this will keep the clutter and flood of e-mail messages going back and forth to try and help.

 

 

Milton Ota

ICAN Island Computer Access Now

4273 Coventry Dr., S.

Unit E

Fargo, ND 58104-4498

 

Ph: (701) 731-0511

Email: mota1252@...

 

               

 


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Albert Cutolo
 

Good morning Mike, 

 

Some time ago, I did install a Jaws update that you posted using a direct download  link that you provided.  It seems that when I  first downloaded the jaws upgrade for jaws 2021, any updates that came out  after that,  Jaws seems to have gone nuts.     I did have the technician at freedomscientific, do a remote screen sharing session.  Things seemed to be working fine, but as I pointed out, now nothing is working properly with jaws.       


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Milton Ota
 

Hello Albert,

 

If you are interested in allowing me to do a tandam into your computer, I’d glad to help fix the problem. I think that you have an older version of JAWS that is starting up when you first turn on your computer.

 

If you are interested in the tandam contact me via this e-mail address to arrange the connection. I’m not busy this afternoon and I’m in central time.

 

Milton Ota

Mota1252@...

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Albert Cutolo
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 7:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Good morning Milton and Richard,

I’m supposed to be running Jaws 2021 on my laptop computer along with windows 10. When the last two updates came along, Like the one the was posted on January 19th, and the last update that was posted on February,  I installed them by going too the check for updates and installed them in the normal way.  Now, when I go to my desktop and enter on one of my Icons like outlook, or any of the others that are on their, it doesn’t say too edit the selected item, press f2.  Second,  Their’s no voice assistant that’s supposed to come up when I press the insert or jaws key the alt key and the spacebar, which is supposed too automatically bringup the voice assistant.  Third, when I go too where it says Jaws home manual and go to the utilities menu and arrow down to the settings senter,and arrow down to where it says, users, and then open it with the right arrow too open it, their’s no item there for me to enable a setting for me to enable voice assistant. The first item that comes up in   the users section says, progress messages  anouncement five second intervols. The next item says,      typing echo caracters.  Well, I thin you’ll get the picture. 

 

I don’t want too keep calling them and have them think that I’m some kind of nut who justwants attention.      

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:20 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

It would be very helpful if you were to give us more detailed description of your problem by telling us if you are using the most recent update of JAWS, if you are running Windows 10 and what did tech support at Vispero/Freedom Scientific do to fix the problem.

 

Doing this will keep the clutter and flood of e-mail messages going back and forth to try and help.

 

 

Milton Ota

ICAN Island Computer Access Now

4273 Coventry Dr., S.

Unit E

Fargo, ND 58104-4498

 

Ph: (701) 731-0511

Email: mota1252@...

 

               

 


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Mike B.
 

Hi Albert,
 
You should probably download the Jaws updates to your computer and install them from there verses using the Jaws update feature.  Some people don't have any problems updating using the Jaws update feature but, more often than not people have problems with their updated version of Jaws updating via the Jaws update feature.
 
Whenever a Jaws update comes out     I post a direct download link and what's new with with the updated version.  Below is the link to the download page, if you would like to download the latest version.
 
 
Or, here's the direct download link for the February update:
 
Stay safe and take care.  Mike.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Sunday, March 07, 2021 5:01 AM
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Good morning Milton and Richard,

I’m supposed to be running Jaws 2021 on my laptop computer along with windows 10. When the last two updates came along, Like the one the was posted on January 19th, and the last update that was posted on February,  I installed them by going too the check for updates and installed them in the normal way.  Now, when I go to my desktop and enter on one of my Icons like outlook, or any of the others that are on their, it doesn’t say too edit the selected item, press f2.  Second,  Their’s no voice assistant that’s supposed to come up when I press the insert or jaws key the alt key and the spacebar, which is supposed too automatically bringup the voice assistant.  Third, when I go too where it says Jaws home manual and go to the utilities menu and arrow down to the settings senter,and arrow down to where it says, users, and then open it with the right arrow too open it, their’s no item there for me to enable a setting for me to enable voice assistant. The first item that comes up in   the users section says, progress messages  anouncement five second intervols. The next item says,      typing echo caracters.  Well, I thin you’ll get the picture. 

 

I don’t want too keep calling them and have them think that I’m some kind of nut who justwants attention.      

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:20 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

It would be very helpful if you were to give us more detailed description of your problem by telling us if you are using the most recent update of JAWS, if you are running Windows 10 and what did tech support at Vispero/Freedom Scientific do to fix the problem.

 

Doing this will keep the clutter and flood of e-mail messages going back and forth to try and help.

 

 

Milton Ota

ICAN Island Computer Access Now

4273 Coventry Dr., S.

Unit E

Fargo, ND 58104-4498

 

Ph: (701) 731-0511

Email: mota1252@...

 

               

 


moderated Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

Albert Cutolo
 

Good morning Milton and Richard,

I’m supposed to be running Jaws 2021 on my laptop computer along with windows 10. When the last two updates came along, Like the one the was posted on January 19th, and the last update that was posted on February,  I installed them by going too the check for updates and installed them in the normal way.  Now, when I go to my desktop and enter on one of my Icons like outlook, or any of the others that are on their, it doesn’t say too edit the selected item, press f2.  Second,  Their’s no voice assistant that’s supposed to come up when I press the insert or jaws key the alt key and the spacebar, which is supposed too automatically bringup the voice assistant.  Third, when I go too where it says Jaws home manual and go to the utilities menu and arrow down to the settings senter,and arrow down to where it says, users, and then open it with the right arrow too open it, their’s no item there for me to enable a setting for me to enable voice assistant. The first item that comes up in   the users section says, progress messages  anouncement five second intervols. The next item says,      typing echo caracters.  Well, I thin you’ll get the picture. 

 

I don’t want too keep calling them and have them think that I’m some kind of nut who justwants attention.      

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Milton Ota
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 8:20 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Jaws isn't able to retain my Jaws 2021 settings.

 

Hello Albert,

 

It would be very helpful if you were to give us more detailed description of your problem by telling us if you are using the most recent update of JAWS, if you are running Windows 10 and what did tech support at Vispero/Freedom Scientific do to fix the problem.

 

Doing this will keep the clutter and flood of e-mail messages going back and forth to try and help.

 

 

Milton Ota

ICAN Island Computer Access Now

4273 Coventry Dr., S.

Unit E

Fargo, ND 58104-4498

 

Ph: (701) 731-0511

Email: mota1252@...

 

               

 


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

val and david paul <valanddavidp@...>
 

Lucky someone who would get you for support!


Val.

On 06/03/2021 19:19, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 01:44 PM, Marianne Denning wrote:

If I need them to do all of this visually that is certainly job
security for them.

-
As an aside, and there are members here who can attest to this, even when I am assisting a blind client to DIY I still ask for remote access with screen sharing at a minimum, but full remote control typically.

I may never touch a thing, but it helps me to make sure that what I'm telling someone to do, and what actually happens after they do it, are what I expect.  There are times when I give an incorrect directive, and there are times when the person being assisted does not follow a directive correctly even though they intended to.

My being able to actively monitor what's occurring using sight, since I happen to have it, is a bit of an insurance policy against unintended results.

I actually prefer, when I am taking control from my end, that a screen reader user keeps their screen reader on, as I like for it to narrate what's going on as I do it.  I can tune a screen reader out when I want to with ease, but I don't want the client to be unaware of what's going on, and I'll give added verbal information as needed.
--

Brian -Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

*One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.*

~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

val and david paul <valanddavidp@...>
 

I quite agree with everything that's being said on this subject.

I had an occasion to have to contact the microsoft disability desk about a problem I was having.

Firstly, I got someone who didn't even know what a screen reader was, and secondly the person I got, couldn't get it into their heads that I was totally blind, and couldn't tell him what was coming up on the screen as he had switched off my speach.


Val.

On 06/03/2021 18:51, Mich Verrier wrote:

I have a problem when calling these places and get to some one who can hardly speek English and who lives in indiea or some forin place like that to me if you can’t speek English or hardly can then go back to your oan contrey. Also I am worried when working with ms accessibillidey that they are always going to screw something up when they want to fix your pc remotely. From Mich.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Marianne Denning
*Sent:* March 6, 2021 1:40 PMi am always worried when working with ms disibillidey desk that they are going to screw up my pc when they ae wanting to remotely access it. From Mich.
*To:*I have a problem when I call places and get transferd to some one who hardly knows English sorry but if you don’t know English then get another job or move back to your oan contrey. That is just my thoughts on this also as far as working with the Microsoft disibillidey desk I have had no problums with them in the past how ever I am always worried when they start messing around with y pc that they are going to screw something up. From Mich.
*Subject:* Re: Working with people at disability help desk

I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io> <main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

-
Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

*One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.*

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Tyler Wood
 

Hello,

Chip on my shoulder? I’m not sure if you’re being sarcastic with that or not.

As a blind person/person with a disability, I am simply explaining what I have seen again and again, especially as it relates to the real world.

This goes well above and beyond accessibility. It is a question of how we interact with those around us and how one action by one person in our demographic, as it were, can change how we are viewed by general society. I am a very patient individual who is willing to educate, explain, and generally attempt to verse a person on what would help me accomplish a task, and I like to try and encourage those in similar situations to do likewise. I’m not a fan of yelling and screaming without identifying information on what  would make a product more accessible, make me as a person more or less comfortable, and encourage those around me to treat me as a normal every day person in a way that educates and helps them understand where I am coming from.

I am also willing to view our shortcomings – and that is to say we, as blind individuals, tend to do the exact same thing as those sighted people around us. Thus, we do not understand where *they* are coming from, at times, regardless of their explanations. Someone can try and explain time and time again what colors look like, but I will never understand it, apart from the most general sense.

 

Thus, if there are lights flashing on a router, and as that is how the tech support is trained to troubleshoot issues, yes, I am more than willing to try and get sighted help. In the real world, agents, and companies, would like to train people in a similar vein so there are no inconsistencies. This isn’t a slight against me. This is simple fact – much as I dislike it. I’m not going to refuse to do something because I need to reach out and ask for help, and that’s what I take issue with. It also very much depends on the support agent in question. I remember calling Netflix a while ago regarding a Talkback issue on Android. I ended up getting transferred right up the chain. By the last call of the evening, I had a gentlemen on the line who was willing to go above and beyond what his training provided. He ran talkback, took the time to ask me questions on how to navigate with it, and we went through the issues I was having together. This was after countless phone calls with support agents who continuously used every day references – click the three dots at the top right, etc etc. As much as we may think it may be their job to know our technology, we must also take into consideration that we need to have a general understanding of the terms they use so we can better help the person on the end of the line help us. That is, also, simple fact, and not a slight against us. It sounds easy now in hindsight, but patience can truly make or break these types of things. Take a few deep breaths, remember that the agent is simply trying their best to help.

 

Regarding agents from other countries – or who I struggle to understand – this can definitely add some frustration. They may be trying to tell me something and I am not understanding, or vice versa. It is not a slight against them, it is a slight against the company. The company put them in this situation, and thus me, too.

That being said, I’ve had some truly enlightening conversations that resulted in software or firmware fixes with those across the pond, as it were, so I’d also encourage not immediately dismissing them and explaining your issue as best you are able.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Sunday, March 7, 2021 1:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Tyler Wood, it almost sounds like you are implying the blind have a chip on their shoulder by your verbiage.  My hard of hearing cousin had an expression which is almost verbatim what you said, “Yell and scream and you will get whatever you want!” I enjoy groups like this because it debunks the idea that I was told years ago by a blind person.  “David, you have to realize that most blind people have no life and all they do is post emails to groups.”   

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Leedy Diane Bomar
Sent: March 6, 2021 7:30 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

 

 Diane Bomar


On Mar 6, 2021, at 15:32, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:



Hi,

My $.02.

Part of my job involves meeting with customers and showing them, via my screen and audio, how my screen reader interacts with various content be it a website, an application, or something in between.

People don’t generally encounter blind or visually impaired individuals. Demanding that someone immediately cater to your needs without attempting to educate that person is worse than the person trying to help using visual landmarks. We are the minority. We must help educate, even if we want an issue fixed right away. You can do a great deal to broaden someone’s understanding of what you’re dealing with by attempting to explain where you are on the screen, what your screen reader is speaking, what you expect to happen and what is actually happening. Demanding that you want to speak to someone who can talk to you in nonvisual lingo isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself, because that person will not be able to help the next person who comes along and does not get educated about how to go about conducting themselves with someone who can’t see. It’s a missed opportunity on both sides. You’d be surprised what doesn’t cross someone’s mind and they take for granted.

Is it frustrating? You bet it is. It’s also empowering to help someone understand alternate views on certain aspects of life in general, the issues faced with regards to accessibility and the methods in which they can be alleviated. Hint: yelling, screaming and demanding fixes nothing, apart from making companies less apt to work with us.

I think several also forget that, just because you’re calling the disability support line, doesn’t mean your disability is the only one out there. There are tons of others that are equally misrepresented or unaccounted for.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of E.M. Kirtley
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When speech output was relatively new, I worked as a systems analyst at a local utility company. The VP of that department, I suspect hired me just for the excuse of buying a talking IBM terminal. I was expected to be prepared, without notice, to make it read the pledge of allegiance to anyone he brought to my office. They did not like it as much if I turned off the screen.

 

 

We must educate society, and insist on full inclusion. What really gets to me is the seeming assumption that I have to have a sighted person readily available, and that if that is the case I would not have already asked for their assistance if eyes would solve the problem. I need to know how to solve issues, by myself, for future problems of that nature.

 

 

Amazon Kindle tech support should know, for instance, how one turns speech output on/off. Two years ago, they insisted that I had to have "sighted assistance" which, of course, is untrue. I went round and round with them for over an hour before figuring it out for myself.


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

David Diamond
 

Tyler Wood, it almost sounds like you are implying the blind have a chip on their shoulder by your verbiage.  My hard of hearing cousin had an expression which is almost verbatim what you said, “Yell and scream and you will get whatever you want!” I enjoy groups like this because it debunks the idea that I was told years ago by a blind person.  “David, you have to realize that most blind people have no life and all they do is post emails to groups.”   

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Leedy Diane Bomar
Sent: March 6, 2021 7:30 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

 

 Diane Bomar


On Mar 6, 2021, at 15:32, Tyler Wood <tcwood12@...> wrote:



Hi,

My $.02.

Part of my job involves meeting with customers and showing them, via my screen and audio, how my screen reader interacts with various content be it a website, an application, or something in between.

People don’t generally encounter blind or visually impaired individuals. Demanding that someone immediately cater to your needs without attempting to educate that person is worse than the person trying to help using visual landmarks. We are the minority. We must help educate, even if we want an issue fixed right away. You can do a great deal to broaden someone’s understanding of what you’re dealing with by attempting to explain where you are on the screen, what your screen reader is speaking, what you expect to happen and what is actually happening. Demanding that you want to speak to someone who can talk to you in nonvisual lingo isn’t helping anyone, least of all yourself, because that person will not be able to help the next person who comes along and does not get educated about how to go about conducting themselves with someone who can’t see. It’s a missed opportunity on both sides. You’d be surprised what doesn’t cross someone’s mind and they take for granted.

Is it frustrating? You bet it is. It’s also empowering to help someone understand alternate views on certain aspects of life in general, the issues faced with regards to accessibility and the methods in which they can be alleviated. Hint: yelling, screaming and demanding fixes nothing, apart from making companies less apt to work with us.

I think several also forget that, just because you’re calling the disability support line, doesn’t mean your disability is the only one out there. There are tons of others that are equally misrepresented or unaccounted for.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of E.M. Kirtley
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

When speech output was relatively new, I worked as a systems analyst at a local utility company. The VP of that department, I suspect hired me just for the excuse of buying a talking IBM terminal. I was expected to be prepared, without notice, to make it read the pledge of allegiance to anyone he brought to my office. They did not like it as much if I turned off the screen.

 

 

We must educate society, and insist on full inclusion. What really gets to me is the seeming assumption that I have to have a sighted person readily available, and that if that is the case I would not have already asked for their assistance if eyes would solve the problem. I need to know how to solve issues, by myself, for future problems of that nature.

 

 

Amazon Kindle tech support should know, for instance, how one turns speech output on/off. Two years ago, they insisted that I had to have "sighted assistance" which, of course, is untrue. I went round and round with them for over an hour before figuring it out for myself.


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Joseph Hudson
 

Hello Shirley, well the thing is I give them quite a bit of information to access my file. It should be notated somewhere on my account that I am a blind and visually impaired individual.

On Mar 6, 2021, at 2:02 PM, Shirley Tracy <shirleytracy16@gmail.com> wrote:

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.
I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

Shirley Tracy

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.
On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@denningweb.com> wrote:

I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:
There has to be a meeting in the middle though.
-
Oh, absolutely! But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology. I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with. Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it. Every one of those populations are niche demographics. The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part. If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste. And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems. I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program." I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted. I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle. The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial. When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them. But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things. It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script. Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to. It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself. Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

--
Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042
One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.
~ André Gide





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