Date   

moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 05:10 PM, E.M. Kirtley wrote:
I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country
-
Which was beyond the pale.  But it also seemed to be the only thing that was being laser focused on.

These complaints are not rare, and are most often, in my experience, not made by anyone who would be willing to be, literally, that xenophobic.

My only point is that the core of the complaint, not how it was stated, is not without merit.  And I thought I articulated that clearly.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

E.M. Kirtley
 

I think what Mr. Lee was objecting to was the wording about going back to their own country,.  That was uncalled for. Not only that, most of the time the call is made to them in their country.   

 

Ms. E. Kirtley

 

 

 

From: Shirley Tracy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

I’ll put my 2 cents in just once here. Give them a break. Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently. Also, I think people in general don’t think. Even my own friends forget I’m totally blind. They’ll tell me something is in the green bin or such and I have to say, “And which one is green?” It’s automatic for them.

I try not to embarrass them and just make a joke of it. But I do speak truth and often we have a good laugh. One time I got angry with a CSR rep on a website and I did say, “What about totally blind don’t you understand?” The woman apologized and I said, “It’s okay. You can still help me if you describe what you’re talking about.”

 

We do get too sensitive about things. And we need to be more up front with others. I don’t wave my blindness like a flag, but when they need to know, I tell them.

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Joseph Hudson
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:44 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Hi Marianne, I also have to work with a website that is supposed to be a company that works for the blind and visually impaired individuals. However, whenever you speak with their customer service, it's almost like talking to somebody who knows nothing about blind people. Anytime I ask them a question it's like what color was the screen or what color are the lines or do you see a orange box? I'm trying to explain to them that I am blind is like talking to a rock.

> On Mar 6, 2021, at 12:40 PM, Marianne Denning <marianne@...> wrote:

>

> I am totally 100% understanding when I am working with someone who knows nothing about blind people and how best to help us. I have a problem when someone works with a company who provides goods and services to blind people and asks me if there is a sighted person available. I am the market for these companies and their staff must know how to communicate with me in a nonvisual way. If that person can’t do it because they are new to their job they need to refer me to someone who can work with me.

> From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel

> Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:40 PM

> To: main@jfw.groups.io

> Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

> On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:25 PM, David Diamond wrote:

> There has to be a meeting in the middle though.

> -

> Oh, absolutely!   But that meeting in the middle, when you're the "exotic one" in a given situation, very often entails you educating the helper about certain things as they try to help you.

>

> There was a time when I didn't know diddly-squat about any form of assistive technology.  I learned based on the work I was doing and who I was doing it with.  Had I not needed (or chosen) to do that work with the populations I've worked with I would have absolutely no reason to know anything about it.  Every one of those populations are niche demographics.  The phrase "mainstream support" carries many shadings to the "mainstream" part.  If you are a part of any niche you had better disabuse yourself of the notion of "all things being equal, or even possibly ever being equal" with all possible haste.  And that's not because of malign intent, but because the capitalist system we live under means that businesses exist to make money, and the idea of "spending more than we get back" exists and not wanting to do that is perfectly legitimate.

>

> But even when I didn't know what I know now, I had occasion to work with a couple of folks who happened to be blind, and was able to assist them with technical problems.  I knew I couldn't use visual terms such as, "click on the red X," but I could use the more generic, "Close the window," or, "Exit the program."   I did, and should have been able to expect, that the exact how that was to be done would be known by the person being assisted.  I no sooner knew ALT+F4 than subatomic physics.

>

> Most support techs who want to be in the job will go as far as they possibly can if the other side is willing to meet in the middle.  The relationship between a sighted, but AT clueless support tech, and a blind client need not be adversarial.  When they give a visual instruction, which they will particularly before it sinks in that they can't, saying something like, "What is it that you're hoping will happen?," or, "What is it that you want me to accomplish?," will often get a response back that allows you to instantly know what you must do.

>

> There will always be idiots out there, and I'm not trying to defend them.  But it is every bit as much up to the blind client dealing with someone who does not know AT, and who is not remoted in to their machine so they can see what is going on (which, for obvious reasons, is how we with sight generally work), to help the person trying to help them when it comes to the AT side of things.  It also helps to understand that many of the signt-centric instructions are part of a script.  Far too many companies put the inexperienced on help lines and adamantly insist that they stick with the script, and when they don't know what they're doing, they have to.  It's the people who've been doing this for a while, and like doing it, who often relish being able to "step outside the box" when the opportunity presents itself.  Others, of course, will not, and if it quickly gets ugly then that's when the, "I wish to be put through to your supervisor," step gets taken, as many times as necessary and as many levels as necessary, to lodge a legitimate complaint.

> --

> Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

> One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

>            ~ André Gide

>

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

Monica S
 

Hi, one thing I do is whenever I call Microsoft, I ask them to tell me the steps with keyboard commands and I write them down.  I hope this can help someone for any future needs.

 

Sincerely,

 

Monica

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Judy
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:35 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

Mary Ann, being a person who uses a pc with jaws, but also has an iPhone, it is so different how the two companies handle their disability support. I have found that Microsoft, has to be directed like some have said, and if they want to take over and fix it for you that’s nice, but I’m not learning anything if it happens again. When I call Apple support, they go through the problem step by step, and if requires remote access to my phone, they still tell me what to do. Now I do realize that theirs is a system where everyone has voice over, unlike having a pc which can be using various screen readers, but you would still think a company as huge as Microsoft could have some people better trained. JMHO Judy & Libby

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:45 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

I am not talking about the mainstream companies. The reason we call a disability help desk in a large company like Microsoft is because they have the knowledge on how to work with people who are blind. I usually find that the people at the Microsoft help desk want to take over my computer and make the changes and I go along with it. In an ideal world they would walk us through a nonvisual way to get the job done but I know that won’t happen any time in the near future. If I need them to do all of this visually that is certainly job security for them.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:26 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

I really cannot believe that anyone who is blind does not understand this, I really can't.  And if that's offensive to say, so be it, because it is a fact, and one that is never, ever going to change. Definitely true and no I don’t find it offensive.  There has to be a meeting in the middle though. Sometimes people expect others to cater to them and on the other side of the equation, the other person can refuse to change their terminology or practices. Years ago I’d run into with my phone company those who would say, “It can’t be done!”  When I delved into it the fact was they never tried to do it, just assumed it couldn’t be done My idea is, at least try and do something don’t just say it can’t be done.        

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: March 5, 2021 9:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:36 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:

There are many reasons why this is the most imaginable offensive question.

-
Then, Diane, we definitely come from very, very different worlds.  I can come up with at least 20 questions, off the top of my head, that exceed this one in offensiveness.

There can be people who are being offensive, but I have very clearly explained why it is foolish, yes, foolish to assume that without additional evidence

And I will say, again, that all accessibility is a workaround.  In the case of screen readers, it is the substitution of audition for vision.  The two senses are in no way directly equivalent.  This will always entail compromises and while the experience can be substantially the same when it comes to text-based information, it will never be for many things that cannot be captured that way.

And the idea that "light dependence no longer needs to be the only way to access information" has been here, now, for quite a while.  But the fact is, and will always remain, that visual media, and anything on a computer besides text is just that, is going to be designed primarily with that in mind.  That it should be accessible, to the maximal extent possible, via other means should be a given in good design.  But do not delude yourself into thinking that even things most ideally designed for maximal accessibility can, or will, ever be able to give you "exactly the same information" that the sighted get, because they can't.

And, by the way, my earlier comments regarding tech support was for tech support dedicated to screen reader users or users of other assistive technology.  Most techs not in that arena have no reason to know about assistive technology.  It is not cost effective to try to train every generic help desk person in how to use a screen reader, particularly since most larger companies do have dedicated AT support and smaller companies have to pick where their money goes  If there is not a substantial blind user base of a given product, and the maker is a small company down to "mom and pop," they cannot reasonably be expected to have screen reader literate tech support.

And that's not because you're less of a person, or less worthy of respect  It's because you are part of a tiny minority in the general population and there are limited resources, financial and otherwise.  I really cannot believe that anyone who is blind does not understand this, I really can't.  And if that's offensive to say, so be it, because it is a fact, and one that is never, ever going to change.    
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: adobe choice?

Mario
 

thanks Bill.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Bill White [mailto:billwhite92701@att.net]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 6, 2021, 4:58 PM
Subject: adobe choice?
Hi, Mario. I'm not Mike, but I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

are the boxes that Unchecky unchecks become unavailable or frozen or can they be checked if the user desires to include the "freebee", not that anyone would.

Unchecky unchecks all the bundled software, and if you re-check it, it gives you a warning that this software is unrelated to the software you are trying to download, but the boxes are not frozen.

is Unchecky updated often in respect to definitions, like in preventing the installation of unwanted junk?

Yes, Unchecky is updated, and it updates automatically, so you don't need to check for updates.

Bill White

billwhite92701@att.net


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:37 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: adobe choice?

Mike, are the boxes that Unchecky unchecks become unavailable or frozen
or can they be checked if the user desires to include the "freebee", not
that anyone would. and is Unchecky updated often in respect to
definitions, like in preventing the installation of unwanted junk?

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mike B [mailto:mb69mach1@fastmail.com]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 6, 2021, 2:57 PM
Subject: adobe choice?
Hi Bill,
It does not give you a choice. It just unchecks extra boxes, at least
this has been my experience since I started running it back in 2014.
Once in awhile you might hear Jaws report Unchecky catching something
and unchecking it.
Stay safe and take care. Mike.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Bill White <mailto:billwhite92701@att.net>
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Sent:* Saturday, March 06, 2021 10:26 AM
*Subject:* Re: adobe choice?

Hi, Brian. I have hesitated to use Unchecky, because I don't always want
all options unchecked. Does Unchecky give you the option to check some
items, and leave others unchecked, or is it an across-the-board uncheck?

Bill White

billwhite92701@att.net <mailto:billwhite92701@att.net>

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
[mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, March 6, 2021 10:16 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: adobe choice?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 09:08 PM, Bill White wrote:

unless you explicitly want any of the bundled software

-
And if you want a utility with a very light footprint that unchecks all
this crap for you (at least the vast majority of the time), have look at
Unchecky <https://unchecky.com/>. Even though I tend to be about as
careful as anyone can be about unchecking "offers" for bundled software,
if I get in a rush I can sometimes miss. Unchecky has been an asset in
keeping potentially unwanted programs off my computer for around 5 years
now.


moderated Re: adobe choice?

Bill White
 

Hi, Mario. I'm not Mike, but I'll try to answer your questions as best as I can.

are the boxes that Unchecky unchecks become unavailable or frozen or can they be checked if the user desires to include the "freebee", not that anyone would.

Unchecky unchecks all the bundled software, and if you re-check it, it gives you a warning that this software is unrelated to the software you are trying to download, but the boxes are not frozen.

is Unchecky updated often in respect to definitions, like in preventing the installation of unwanted junk?

Yes, Unchecky is updated, and it updates automatically, so you don't need to check for updates.

Bill White

billwhite92701@att.net

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:37 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: adobe choice?

Mike, are the boxes that Unchecky unchecks become unavailable or frozen
or can they be checked if the user desires to include the "freebee", not
that anyone would. and is Unchecky updated often in respect to
definitions, like in preventing the installation of unwanted junk?

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mike B [mailto:mb69mach1@fastmail.com]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 6, 2021, 2:57 PM
Subject: adobe choice?
Hi Bill,
It does not give you a choice. It just unchecks extra boxes, at least
this has been my experience since I started running it back in 2014.
Once in awhile you might hear Jaws report Unchecky catching something
and unchecking it.
Stay safe and take care. Mike.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Bill White <mailto:billwhite92701@att.net>
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Sent:* Saturday, March 06, 2021 10:26 AM
*Subject:* Re: adobe choice?

Hi, Brian. I have hesitated to use Unchecky, because I don't always want
all options unchecked. Does Unchecky give you the option to check some
items, and leave others unchecked, or is it an across-the-board uncheck?

Bill White

billwhite92701@att.net <mailto:billwhite92701@att.net>

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
[mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, March 6, 2021 10:16 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: adobe choice?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 09:08 PM, Bill White wrote:

unless you explicitly want any of the bundled software

-
And if you want a utility with a very light footprint that unchecks all
this crap for you (at least the vast majority of the time), have look at
Unchecky <https://unchecky.com/>. Even though I tend to be about as
careful as anyone can be about unchecking "offers" for bundled software,
if I get in a rush I can sometimes miss. Unchecky has been an asset in
keeping potentially unwanted programs off my computer for around 5 years
now.

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

**One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
the shore for a very long time.**

~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

Cristóbal,

            If you actually have those numbers and know they're current, would you mind sharing (or if you have URLs for the appropriate pages at their support areas)?  eBay in particular is the 20th circle of hell as far as getting any sort of live support in my experience.  It never hurts to have those phone numbers in one's back pocket in case of need.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: adobe choice?

Mario
 

Mike, are the boxes that Unchecky unchecks become unavailable or frozen or can they be checked if the user desires to include the "freebee", not that anyone would. and is Unchecky updated often in respect to definitions, like in preventing the installation of unwanted junk?

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mike B [mailto:mb69mach1@fastmail.com]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 6, 2021, 2:57 PM
Subject: adobe choice?
Hi Bill,
It does not give you a choice.  It just unchecks extra boxes, at least
this has been my experience since I started running it back in 2014.
Once in awhile you might hear Jaws report Unchecky catching something
and unchecking it.
Stay safe and take care.  Mike.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* Bill White <mailto:billwhite92701@att.net>
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Sent:* Saturday, March 06, 2021 10:26 AM
*Subject:* Re: adobe choice?

Hi, Brian. I have hesitated to use Unchecky, because I don't always want
all options unchecked. Does Unchecky give you the option to check some
items, and leave others unchecked, or is it an across-the-board uncheck?

Bill White

billwhite92701@att.net <mailto:billwhite92701@att.net>

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
[mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* Saturday, March 6, 2021 10:16 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: adobe choice?

On Thu, Mar 4, 2021 at 09:08 PM, Bill White wrote:

unless you explicitly want any of the bundled software

-
And if you want a utility with a very light footprint that unchecks all
this crap for you (at least the vast majority of the time), have look at
Unchecky <https://unchecky.com/>.  Even though I tend to be about as
careful as anyone can be about unchecking "offers" for bundled software,
if I get in a rush I can sometimes miss.  Unchecky has been an asset in
keeping potentially unwanted programs off my computer for around 5 years
now.

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

**One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
the shore for a very long time.**

~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Cristóbal
 

Just a correction, eBay does still have telephonic and email support. The wife and I sell on this platform and have had to use it from time to time. Same with Amazon. You may need to jump through an extra hoop or two to get support, but it’s there.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:28 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 04:15 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:

And some major companies like EBay and PayPal have done away with custopmer service altogether and no longer offer telephone or email support of any kind,which is especially problematic for blind customers.

-
You can cut out the "blind" and, possibly, the "especially," and your observation still holds true.

There's really not much worse, from a customer perspective, than having abolutely no viable channel to communicate with a company when issues arise.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 04:15 PM, Gerald Levy wrote:
And some major companies like EBay and PayPal have done away with custopmer service altogether and no longer offer telephone or email support of any kind,which is especially problematic for blind customers.
-
You can cut out the "blind" and, possibly, the "especially," and your observation still holds true.

There's really not much worse, from a customer perspective, than having abolutely no viable channel to communicate with a company when issues arise.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Installing Jaws scripts

Mario
 

Mike, with JAWS 2020 and I suspect newer versions, one needs to enter on Utilities instead of Explore JAWS,
and continue as directed.

------- Original Message --------
From: Mike B [mailto:mb69mach1@fastmail.com]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Saturday, March 6, 2021, 2:53 PM
Subject: Installing Jaws scripts
Hi John,
Try the following:
1. Open the start menu with the windows key and open the All Programs
submenu.
2. Navigate to the version of Jaws you want to work with and press enter.
3. Press enter on, Explore Jaws, now down arrow to, Explore my settings,
and press enter.  This puts you directly into the ENU folder of this
version of Jaws and this is where you want to paste your scripts.
If you need more help just let us know.
Stay safe and take care.  Mike.
----- Original Message -----
*From:* John J. Fioravanti, Jr. <mailto:fioresq1@gmail.com>
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Sent:* Saturday, March 06, 2021 7:02 AM
*Subject:* Re: Installing Jaws scripts

Hi Udo: Actually I'm installing some old scripts for a music keyboard
editor from 2011. On this particular  machine, I'm using windows 7 and
jaws 14.

*From:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> *On Behalf Of *Udo
Egner-Walter via groups.io
*Sent:* Saturday, March 6, 2021 09:38 AM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Subject:* Re: Installing Jaws scripts

Hi John,

You can find the folder dealing with user scripts this way:

1. Depending on your JAWS installation:

a) If you start JAWS in system tray then press JAWS+J to open JAWS
context menu

b) If you don't start JAWS in system tray then Press JAWS+J to bring
JAWS window to the front and activate the menu by pressing alt key

2. Select "Utilities" and open it

3. Select "Explore Utilities Folder". Now Explorer will open with some
file links.

4. Search for "Explore my settings" file link and activate it. Another
Explorer window will now open containing your settings and user scripts.

If your script file is for a particular application you can copy the
scripts file here. If the JSB file is from an older version of JAWS it's
a good idea to open your application, then press JAWS+0 (0 in the number
row above the chars, not the number block on the right side). This will
open Script Manager with your script file. Press Control+S to compile
the script again, a new JSB will be made from JAWS.

If your script file is not for a particular application or another
script file for an application already exists, you can include your file
with a "USE" command. It this is what you need let me know and I can
describe this in detail.

Good luck with your script file

Udo



Am 06.03.2021 um 13:15 schrieb John J. Fioravanti, Jr.
<fioresq1@gmail.com <mailto:fioresq1@gmail.com>>:

Hi: perhaps it's my age, but it's been a long time, and I don't
remember how to install jaws scripts, the JSB JSD and JSS files.
Could someone walk me through it?

Thanks.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io
<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io><main@jfw.groups.io
<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>>*On Behalf Of*Brian Vogel
*Sent:*Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:55 AM
*To:*main@jfw.groups.io <mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
*Subject:*Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:36 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:

There are many reasons why this is the most imaginable offensive
question.

-
Then, Diane, we definitely come from very, very different worlds.  I
can come up with at least 20 questions, off the top of my head, that
exceed this one in offensiveness.

There can be people who are being offensive, but I have very clearly
explained why it is foolish, yes, foolish to assume that without
additional evidence.

And I will say, again, that all accessibility is a workaround.  In
the case of screen readers, it is the substitution of audition for
vision.  The two senses are in no way directly equivalent.  This
will always entail compromises and while the experience can be
substantially the same when it comes to text-based information, it
will never be for many things that cannot be captured that way.

And the idea that "light dependence no longer needs to be the only
way to access information" has been here, now, for quite a while.
But the fact is, and will always remain, that visual media, and
anything on a computer besides text is just that, is going to be
designed primarily with that in mind.  That it should be accessible,
to the maximal extent possible, via other means should be a given in
good design.  But do not delude yourself into thinking that even
things most ideally designed for maximal accessibility can, or will,
ever be able to give you "exactly the same information" that the
sighted get, because they can't.

And, by the way, my earlier comments regarding tech support was for
tech support dedicated to screen reader users or users of other
assistive technology.  Most techs not in that arena have no reason
to know about assistive technology.  It is not cost effective to try
to train every generic help desk person in how to use a screen
reader, particularly since most larger companies do have dedicated
AT support and smaller companies have to pick where their money
goes.  If there is not a substantial blind user base of a given
product, and the maker is a small company down to "mom and pop,"
they cannot reasonably be expected to have screen reader literate
tech support.

And that's not because you're less of a person, or less worthy of
respect.  It's because you are part of a tiny minority in the
general population and there are limited resources, financial and
otherwise.  I really cannot believe that anyone who is blind does
not understand this, I really can't.  And if that's offensive to
say, so be it, because it is a fact, and one that is never, ever
going to change.
--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042

*One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of
the shore for a very long time.*

~ André Gide


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 04:09 PM, Dan Longmore wrote:
as a blind person, I will always need assistance in one form or another.
-
You could cut that "blind" out of that sentence and it remains equally true.  None of us gets through this life without constant need of assistance of one form or another.  The form differs, and sometimes the amount differs, but we all need assistance, and the wise seek it out when they do.

There is a difference between trying to figure something out, and realizing you've reached the stage of throwing good effort after bad, and never lifting a finger and being truly dependent.  Frustrating oneself for hours or days rather than asking someone else who may know what it is you need is not independence, it's stupidity, and that's regardless of visual status.  And if we're talking about an employment setting, that sort of bullheadedness can get you fired.  It's about getting the work done with collaboration/assistance as needed.  Of course, constantly seeking out help before trying anything independently will get you fired, too (and make you very unpopular with your coworkers).

Life is about finding balance.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

Gerald Levy
 


The bottom line is that these large companies only care about the ,well, bottom line, and don't give a bleep about customer service and so farm it out to offshore boiler rooms who pay their workers coolie wages.  I have heard that in some countries, workers are crammed into bunkers shoulder to shoulder with total and reckless disregard for the pandemic.  And some major companies like EBay and PayPal have done away with custopmer service altogether and no longer offer telephone or email support of any kind,which is especially problematic for blind customers.

 

Gerald



On 3/6/2021 3:24 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 02:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
HOW DARE YOU!
-
I'm sorry, Joseph, but the complaint is not entirely without merit.

I have nothing against non-US-technical support, but regardless of what offshore tech support is being used by a company, there needs to be some very careful vetting with regard to proficiency with the language of the country being supported.  That has been, on more than one occasion, sadly lacking.  And that is a problem, whether you care for anyone to express it or not.  And there's nothing anti-anything about noting that fact.  People put in a position to do a given job should be able to do it for the target audience.  Those who can't are often pushed there through no fault of their own, but that doesn't matter one whit to the person on the other end of the phone.

There is a reason that some companies are now using, in my case, "US Based Support," as a selling point.  And it's precisely because of the issues I've identified above, and that may have been inelegantly expressed earlier by Mich.

I don't think it's necessarily xenophobic, as much as pure frustration, at the root of these sorts of complaints.  I also imagine they occur in any country you can name where offshore technical support is in wide use.  I've had plenty of calls with T-Mobile support where the person assisting me was perfectly lovely and polite, but where it was clear they did not understand clearly what I as asking and I did not understand clearly what they were saying.  I'm not being xenophobic (as I have no idea of exactly where these individuals are operating from, and I have no problem with immigrants, period) but I am frustrated when that occurs.  And that's the fault of the company, not the tech.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

Dan Longmore
 

Diane,

  I hear your frustration however the truth is that , as a blind person, I will always need assistance in one form or another.  I don’t think most tech supports thinks blind people are dumb .  They are just trying to get another set of eyes on the scene.

Our world has taught us that needing help is a weakness when in actuality it is a form of strength.  Strength in that it shows humility.  Believe me this is a lesson in process for me.

Dan

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Leedy Diane Bomar
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:00 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

Brian,

There are many reasons why this is the most imaginable offensive question.

It is asked by almost every help desk to which I have spoken.

Sometimes, it is said as: "is there someone there that can help?"

Which means "someone with sight" which implies that a blind person is not a ":"someone". Also, if I had this invisible friend, caretaker, babysitter, etc. wouldn't I have already thought to ask for their help? Why do sighted people assume that, we as people who cannot see, have a sighted person at our beckon call. Who pays for this helper?

 

Most of the time it is the fault of the company that a sighted assistant may be needed because their developers did not consider the needs of non-visual access. I believe in making this their problem, not mine! How will they ever learn that it is not a blindness issue, but a product development/design issue, if they always have a "sighted person" to solve the problem. That is NOT independence or encouraging full inclusion through accessibility.

 

I am always snarky in my response to this question, try to be humorous, and explain why it is the most insulting offensive question ever! I often tell them that my guide dog can see the screen, but she cannot speak. I am sick and tired of the assumption, especially at help desks, and particularly at accessibility help desks for the person I am calling for assistance wants/expects me to have a sighted person readily available! 

The problem is the lack of accessibility, not the fact that I cannot see the screen. There are so many options in design that light dependence no longer needs to be the only way to access information. I am not less of a person, less worthy of respect or assistance, because my eyes don't work. It is the developer's job to include non-visual access in their products, and I believe that we all need to let them know that.

 

Many times I may have a blind friend visiting, and the tech help desk person hears the person say something, and immediately asks if that person can get on the phone. I explain that this other person is also totally blind, and immediately they are discounted as that "someone who can help." This question, by far, is the most insulting offensive question, and the most often asked.Why that question is offensive! 

 Diane Bomar


On Mar 5, 2021, at 16:24, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 02:30 PM, Marianne Denning wrote:

I was working with someone who worked for another blindness company and the person asked me if I had a sighted person who could help.

-
I want someone to explain why this question is offensive.

When you're at a help desk, any help desk, the goal is generally to get a fix as quickly as possible.  There are times where having a sighted assistant can greatly speed things along.  There are times when there really is no substitute for sight when it comes to getting maximum speed and minimum fuss identifying what's happening.  Joseph Lee once said to me, in regard to web browsing, that the sighted (which would include me) see a webpage (but this would apply to anything displaying on a screen) as a gestalt, taking it all in at once, and filtering out the irrelevant versus relevant visually without even realizing you're doing so.  A screen reader user goes element by element through unfamiliar territory and cannot "take it all in at once."  Those are simple facts.

If you don't have access to a sighted assistant, then the answer to that query is, "No, I don't have easy access to a sighted assistant."

Asking whether such is available is not meant, not should it be taken, as a slight to someone who's blind.  I cannot imagine that most in the readership here have not, on multiple occasions, had someone who could see around who could "instantly" identify something you've been struggling with for hours such that you want to scream and rend your garments.  Examples of this completely unrelated to the computer abound, too.  My "value added" most of the time is that I can see something that's, sadly, either not accessible or not accessible quickly and easily and could take a screen reader user hours to find because of how a given program/screen is structured.

If your job is to try to fix an issue as quickly as possible you use all the tools at your disposal, and as a help desk tech there are times where a sighted assistant is a really handy tool to have.  If not available, you try another way, but in many instances it will invariably take much longer.  But if you don't ask whether an optional tool, in this case a sighted assistant, might be available you're not doing your job, or at least not doing it well.  
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

Judy
 

Mary Ann, being a person who uses a pc with jaws, but also has an iPhone, it is so different how the two companies handle their disability support. I have found that Microsoft, has to be directed like some have said, and if they want to take over and fix it for you that’s nice, but I’m not learning anything if it happens again. When I call Apple support, they go through the problem step by step, and if requires remote access to my phone, they still tell me what to do. Now I do realize that theirs is a system where everyone has voice over, unlike having a pc which can be using various screen readers, but you would still think a company as huge as Microsoft could have some people better trained. JMHO Judy & Libby

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Marianne Denning
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 1:45 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

I am not talking about the mainstream companies. The reason we call a disability help desk in a large company like Microsoft is because they have the knowledge on how to work with people who are blind. I usually find that the people at the Microsoft help desk want to take over my computer and make the changes and I go along with it. In an ideal world they would walk us through a nonvisual way to get the job done but I know that won’t happen any time in the near future. If I need them to do all of this visually that is certainly job security for them.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of David Diamond
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 12:26 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

I really cannot believe that anyone who is blind does not understand this, I really can't.  And if that's offensive to say, so be it, because it is a fact, and one that is never, ever going to change. Definitely true and no I don’t find it offensive.  There has to be a meeting in the middle though. Sometimes people expect others to cater to them and on the other side of the equation, the other person can refuse to change their terminology or practices. Years ago I’d run into with my phone company those who would say, “It can’t be done!”  When I delved into it the fact was they never tried to do it, just assumed it couldn’t be done My idea is, at least try and do something don’t just say it can’t be done.        

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: March 5, 2021 9:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 12:36 AM, Leedy Diane Bomar wrote:

There are many reasons why this is the most imaginable offensive question.

-
Then, Diane, we definitely come from very, very different worlds.  I can come up with at least 20 questions, off the top of my head, that exceed this one in offensiveness.

There can be people who are being offensive, but I have very clearly explained why it is foolish, yes, foolish to assume that without additional evidence

And I will say, again, that all accessibility is a workaround.  In the case of screen readers, it is the substitution of audition for vision.  The two senses are in no way directly equivalent.  This will always entail compromises and while the experience can be substantially the same when it comes to text-based information, it will never be for many things that cannot be captured that way.

And the idea that "light dependence no longer needs to be the only way to access information" has been here, now, for quite a while.  But the fact is, and will always remain, that visual media, and anything on a computer besides text is just that, is going to be designed primarily with that in mind.  That it should be accessible, to the maximal extent possible, via other means should be a given in good design.  But do not delude yourself into thinking that even things most ideally designed for maximal accessibility can, or will, ever be able to give you "exactly the same information" that the sighted get, because they can't.

And, by the way, my earlier comments regarding tech support was for tech support dedicated to screen reader users or users of other assistive technology.  Most techs not in that arena have no reason to know about assistive technology.  It is not cost effective to try to train every generic help desk person in how to use a screen reader, particularly since most larger companies do have dedicated AT support and smaller companies have to pick where their money goes  If there is not a substantial blind user base of a given product, and the maker is a small company down to "mom and pop," they cannot reasonably be expected to have screen reader literate tech support.

And that's not because you're less of a person, or less worthy of respect  It's because you are part of a tiny minority in the general population and there are limited resources, financial and otherwise.  I really cannot believe that anyone who is blind does not understand this, I really can't.  And if that's offensive to say, so be it, because it is a fact, and one that is never, ever going to change.    
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 03:02 PM, Shirley Tracy wrote:
Some people are partially sighted and the people helping don’t know who can see what. And they may ask to determine if you can see at all or if they need to describe differently.
-
When I was doing a lot of freelance tutoring for the Virginia Department for the Blind and Visually Impaired, I learned very quicky that the information I was provided about the clients I was going to meet for the first time was often woefully incomplete.

After several years doing this work, I started starting my first sessions, after customary pleasantries, with the question, "So, how blind are you?," and that generally got a chuckle, regardless of visual status.  I'd follow that immediately with it really helps me to help you if I know whether you have any residual vision or not, and if you do, what is the nature of that vision.  People "got" what I was getting at, and why.

When you're tutoring or assisting someone with visual impairment through total blindness, it's really helpful to know what you (the tutor/assistant) have to work with as far as what the client still has, as far as vision.  It's also helpful to know whether they are adventitiously blind or have been blind since birth.  I never use color descriptors with someone who's been blind since birth, since they're nothing more than a pure abstraction.  But if I'm working with someone who can, or could, recognize color there are times when giving visual descriptions and including color in them allows them to paint whatever sort of mental picture they can.

It's an attempt to meet that individual where they are, as who they are, with some idea of how they got to be both.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Ongoing trouble with PayPal

Bill White
 

Hi, Ron. You get to the Internet Explorer Mode setting by,

 

1. Open Edge.

2. Search for Default Browser.

3. Navigate by using H or Down Arrow, to, Default Browser.

4. TAB to Internet Explorer Mode, and check the check box that allows Internet Explorer Mode to be displayed in More Tools.

5. Restart Edge.

6. Go to the page which you wish to be displayed in Internet Explorer Mode.

7. Press ALT, and Arrow up to More Tools, and press ENTER.

8. Arrow up to Internet Explorer Mode, and press ENTER.

 

Now the page you display will be in Internet Explorer Mode.

 

I don't think there is a security concern, because the browser you are using is Microsoft Edge, not Internet Explorer. The only difference is that Microsoft Edge will use the rendering engine that Internet Explorer uses to render the website. This is especially useful if you still wish to look at RSS pages, which Edge will not render. Edge will render RSS pages if Internet Explorer Mode is used.

 

Bill White

 

billwhite92701@...

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Ron Kolesar
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 11:08 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Ongoing trouble with PayPal

 

, how can one get to this feature?

Also, we all know how unsafe ie 11 is these days.

Can we run it with the security of edge?

Many thanks.

Ron

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Bill White
Sent: Friday, March 5, 2021 17:54
To: JFW Mailing List <jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Ongoing trouble with PayPal

 

I just discovered a setting in Microsoft Edge, under the Default Browser category. It is a setting that allows websites to load in "Internet Explorer Mode". Has anyone tried Microsoft Edge with PayPal to see if this resolves the problem of not being able to use PayPal with Microsoft Edge? I do not have a PayPal account, so, cannot check this for myself.

 

Thank you.

 

Bill White

 

billwhite92701@...

 


moderated Re: Working with people at disability help desk

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 02:52 PM, Joseph Lee wrote:
HOW DARE YOU!
-
I'm sorry, Joseph, but the complaint is not entirely without merit.

I have nothing against non-US-technical support, but regardless of what offshore tech support is being used by a company, there needs to be some very careful vetting with regard to proficiency with the language of the country being supported.  That has been, on more than one occasion, sadly lacking.  And that is a problem, whether you care for anyone to express it or not.  And there's nothing anti-anything about noting that fact.  People put in a position to do a given job should be able to do it for the target audience.  Those who can't are often pushed there through no fault of their own, but that doesn't matter one whit to the person on the other end of the phone.

There is a reason that some companies are now using, in my case, "US Based Support," as a selling point.  And it's precisely because of the issues I've identified above, and that may have been inelegantly expressed earlier by Mich.

I don't think it's necessarily xenophobic, as much as pure frustration, at the root of these sorts of complaints.  I also imagine they occur in any country you can name where offshore technical support is in wide use.  I've had plenty of calls with T-Mobile support where the person assisting me was perfectly lovely and polite, but where it was clear they did not understand clearly what I as asking and I did not understand clearly what they were saying.  I'm not being xenophobic (as I have no idea of exactly where these individuals are operating from, and I have no problem with immigrants, period) but I am frustrated when that occurs.  And that's the fault of the company, not the tech.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 02:35 PM, Cristóbal wrote:
We often lose perspective on the greater picture
-
And that, right there, is the very crux of the matter.

And not just the blind/VI part, but that the folks you engage for assistance actually have expectations placed on them that have nothing to do, directly, with helping you and that are often pushing them to dispose of you and your problem with maximum possible dispatch.  That's actually a core part of the job of virtually anyone who works telephones for any purpose.  I'd imagine that the email support from Freedom Scientific also has metrics regarding how many responses they can get out and how quickly they handle the email queue.

For any one of us, no matter what our personal circumstances, it's not all about me, me, me.   I have used this quotation in rotation for my signature on more than one occasion:

It is well to remember that the entire universe, with one trifling exception, is composed of others.

         ~ John Andrew Holmes

And all those others have needs and goals that must be balanced against yours, and that are sometimes diametrically opposed to yours.  That's the big picture.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

Shirley Tracy
 

I used to depend on my husband. He began teaching me how to use the computer—but I ended up having to teach myself. He has dementia and can’t even use a computer any more. I do it all myself. I don’t mind someone asking me questions—it’s how they respond to me when I explain I have no one available so it’s up to them. oOf course, my kids are here sometimes, but not always.

 

 

Shirley Tracy

 

From: Marianne Denning
Sent: Saturday, March 6, 2021 2:02 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

I think all of us use many different methods to accomplish a goal. I think any of us who live with someone who can see call on that person for help sometimes. My sighted husband also calls on me to do things that I can do faster or better than he can. We keep our pots and pans in a lower cabinet next to the stove. Since we are both getting older I can get down on the floor to get what he needs faster than he can so he asks me to help with that.  

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Cristóbal
Sent: Friday, March 5, 2021 7:22 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

The blind men and the elephant analogy etc.…

There are times where I may have dropped or misplaced something and instead of deploying my super blindy locator skills, I just call out for my sighted wife instead. Independence be damned…

Same thing with the Internet. I can try troubleshooting something on my screen or just call her over to see what the heck is on my screen that’s giving me such fits. It’s often an overlay pop up or something that’s messing with my screen reader.

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Friday, March 5, 2021 3:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 02:30 PM, Marianne Denning wrote:

I was working with someone who worked for another blindness company and the person asked me if I had a sighted person who could help.

-
I want someone to explain why this question is offensive.

When you're at a help desk, any help desk, the goal is generally to get a fix as quickly as possible.  There are times where having a sighted assistant can greatly speed things along.  There are times when there really is no substitute for sight when it comes to getting maximum speed and minimum fuss identifying what's happening.  Joseph Lee once said to me, in regard to web browsing, that the sighted (which would include me) see a webpage (but this would apply to anything displaying on a screen) as a gestalt, taking it all in at once, and filtering out the irrelevant versus relevant visually without even realizing you're doing so.  A screen reader user goes element by element through unfamiliar territory and cannot "take it all in at once."  Those are simple facts.

If you don't have access to a sighted assistant, then the answer to that query is, "No, I don't have easy access to a sighted assistant."

Asking whether such is available is not meant, not should it be taken, as a slight to someone who's blind.  I cannot imagine that most in the readership here have not, on multiple occasions, had someone who could see around who could "instantly" identify something you've been struggling with for hours such that you want to scream and rend your garments.  Examples of this completely unrelated to the computer abound, too.  My "value added" most of the time is that I can see something that's, sadly, either not accessible or not accessible quickly and easily and could take a screen reader user hours to find because of how a given program/screen is structured.

If your job is to try to fix an issue as quickly as possible you use all the tools at your disposal, and as a help desk tech there are times where a sighted assistant is a really handy tool to have.  If not available, you try another way, but in many instances it will invariably take much longer.  But if you don't ask whether an optional tool, in this case a sighted assistant, might be available you're not doing your job, or at least not doing it well.  
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide

 


moderated Re: Need Microsoft Disability phone number!

 

On Sat, Mar 6, 2021 at 02:31 PM, mike mcglashon wrote:
Mr. Brian is not fabricating,
-
Mike, thank you for the direct support of what I've said as someone I've actually worked with.

I will make the point, though, that I really have absolutely nothing to gain by fabricating anything in this arena.  I've simply been there, done that, got the T-Shirt with both sighted and blind individuals.

I've been in the computer biz since the mid-1980s.  I literally cannot count the number of times I've been called upon to give technical support of one sort of another for individuals ranging from other IT professionals to people who barely know what a computer is.  All of my observations are a direct result of that experience, and techs talk, so it's more than my own experience, too.
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 20H2, Build 19042  

One does not discover new lands without consenting to lose sight of the shore for a very long time.

           ~ André Gide

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