----- Original Message -----

From: Richard Turner

To: main@jfw.groups.io

Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 5:03 PM

Subject: Re: how does one join the new JAWS list

Brian,

I could not agree more.

Why people were so quick to recreate a group when this one was running fine is a mystery to me.

Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 

On Aug 26, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 05:42 PM, Richard Turner wrote:

Since, as far as know, there isn't an official group run by Freedom Scientific, nor one run by Mozilla for Thunderbird, etc.

And for this I am grateful, as I do not want my support groups beholden to the companies that make any given product or service.  User groups need to allow users to be entirely free to criticize the maker of the product being discussed, provided it's constructive or brief venting.  Intractable rants don't help anyone and drive serious participants away.

I realize that there sometimes more than one group/list for a given product, and a lot of that can be the result of history.   But when you have several groups, covering the same territory in the same first language on the same venue, common sense dictates trying to integrate them.  In this case, it was a perfectly convenient time to do that, but apparently it won't happen secondary to the "rush to reconstitute" rather than coming into this fold.

Unless there is some compelling case, I stand against fragmentation of information sharing for a given arena/product on principle.  It makes it harder to find what you need to know.

And I hasten to add that this is, in no way, saying that this group is superior to any other on the same topic.  It's just that it is one with a large membership and well-established reputation and track record with regard to JAWS.  Others (and I have been on some, typically briefly) have paled in comparison in my opinion and when they dissolve it would be nice to try to encourage those displaced to transfer allegiances rather than setting up replacements.   If this were the group that had less than half the membership of "its next competitor" and it were to go out of existence, I'd certainly say, "Well, it's time to join the one that's still standing."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

I agree. there should be one list for JAWS, just like there's one for
NVDA, Windows 10, Thunderbird, etc. questions.

------- Original Message --------
From: JM Casey [mailto:jmcasey@teksavvy.com]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 26, 2019, 5:17 PM
Subject: how does one join the new JAWS list

Sounds reasonable to me. Besides which, if there are 2+ lists
essentially covering the same ground, and a bunch of people are on
both/all of them, what’ll happen is that you’ll end up seeing the same
question repeated multiple times.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 26, 2019 4:41 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: how does one join the new JAWS list

OK, I hope that our estimable group owner here on this group will not
find what I'm about to do upsetting, but now I must:

Why, oh why, does there even need to be another JAWS users group on
Groups.io?

It seems that all the refugees (for lack of a better term) from the now
defunct group that have landed on our shores have been welcomed to our
island.  Why on earth form another island, again, for information
sharing about exactly the same software that we share about here?  Why
not just come here and join our happy family?

What is the pressing need for JAWS user's groups two through N, at least
within any given language community? What am I missing?

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: Monday, August 26, 2019 2:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: how does one join the new JAWS list

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 05:42 PM, Richard Turner wrote:

Since, as far as know, there isn't an official group run by Freedom Scientific, nor one run by Mozilla for Thunderbird, etc.

And for this I am grateful, as I do not want my support groups beholden to the companies that make any given product or service.  User groups need to allow users to be entirely free to criticize the maker of the product being discussed, provided it's constructive or brief venting.  Intractable rants don't help anyone and drive serious participants away.

I realize that there sometimes more than one group/list for a given product, and a lot of that can be the result of history.   But when you have several groups, covering the same territory in the same first language on the same venue, common sense dictates trying to integrate them.  In this case, it was a perfectly convenient time to do that, but apparently it won't happen secondary to the "rush to reconstitute" rather than coming into this fold.

Unless there is some compelling case, I stand against fragmentation of information sharing for a given arena/product on principle.  It makes it harder to find what you need to know.

And I hasten to add that this is, in no way, saying that this group is superior to any other on the same topic.  It's just that it is one with a large membership and well-established reputation and track record with regard to JAWS.  Others (and I have been on some, typically briefly) have paled in comparison in my opinion and when they dissolve it would be nice to try to encourage those displaced to transfer allegiances rather than setting up replacements.   If this were the group that had less than half the membership of "its next competitor" and it were to go out of existence, I'd certainly say, "Well, it's time to join the one that's still standing."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

On Aug 26, 2019, at 2:54 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Mon, Aug 26, 2019 at 05:42 PM, Richard Turner wrote:

Since, as far as know, there isn't an official group run by Freedom Scientific, nor one run by Mozilla for Thunderbird, etc.

And for this I am grateful, as I do not want my support groups beholden to the companies that make any given product or service.  User groups need to allow users to be entirely free to criticize the maker of the product being discussed, provided it's constructive or brief venting.  Intractable rants don't help anyone and drive serious participants away.

I realize that there sometimes more than one group/list for a given product, and a lot of that can be the result of history.   But when you have several groups, covering the same territory in the same first language on the same venue, common sense dictates trying to integrate them.  In this case, it was a perfectly convenient time to do that, but apparently it won't happen secondary to the "rush to reconstitute" rather than coming into this fold.

Unless there is some compelling case, I stand against fragmentation of information sharing for a given arena/product on principle.  It makes it harder to find what you need to know.

And I hasten to add that this is, in no way, saying that this group is superior to any other on the same topic.  It's just that it is one with a large membership and well-established reputation and track record with regard to JAWS.  Others (and I have been on some, typically briefly) have paled in comparison in my opinion and when they dissolve it would be nice to try to encourage those displaced to transfer allegiances rather than setting up replacements.   If this were the group that had less than half the membership of "its next competitor" and it were to go out of existence, I'd certainly say, "Well, it's time to join the one that's still standing."
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer

On Aug 26, 2019, at 2:34 PM, Mario <mrb620@...> wrote:

I agree. there should be one list for JAWS, just like there's one for
NVDA, Windows 10, Thunderbird, etc.  questions.

------- Original Message --------
From: JM Casey [mailto:jmcasey@...]
To: <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 26, 2019, 5:17 PM
Subject: how does one join the new JAWS list

Sounds reasonable to me. Besides which, if there are 2+ lists
essentially covering the same ground, and a bunch of people are on
both/all of them, what’ll happen is that you’ll end up seeing the same
question repeated multiple times.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 26, 2019 4:41 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: how does one join the new JAWS list

OK, I hope that our estimable group owner here on this group will not
find what I'm about to do upsetting, but now I must:

Why, oh why, does there even need to be another JAWS users group on
Groups.io?

It seems that all the refugees (for lack of a better term) from the now
defunct group that have landed on our shores have been welcomed to our
island.  Why on earth form another island, again, for information
sharing about exactly the same software that we share about here?  Why
not just come here and join our happy family?

What is the pressing need for JAWS user's groups two through N, at least
within any given language community? What am I missing?

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

          ~ Eric Hoffer

Sounds reasonable to me. Besides which, if there are 2+ lists essentially covering the same ground, and a bunch of people are on both/all of them, what???ll happen is that you???ll end up seeing the same question repeated multiple times.

*From:*main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> *On Behalf Of *Brian Vogel
*Sent:* August 26, 2019 4:41 PM
*To:* main@jfw.groups.io
*Subject:* Re: how does one join the new JAWS list

OK, I hope that our estimable group owner here on this group will not find what I'm about to do upsetting, but now I must:

Why, oh why, does there even need to be another JAWS users group on Groups.io?

It seems that all the refugees (for lack of a better term) from the now defunct group that have landed on our shores have been welcomed to our island.?? Why on earth form another island, again, for information sharing about exactly the same software that we share about here??? Why not just come here and join our happy family?

What is the pressing need for JAWS user's groups two through N, at least within any given language community? What am I missing?

--

Brian *-*Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit,??Version 1903, Build 18362

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

~ Eric Hoffer

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Brian Vogel
Sent: August 26, 2019 4:41 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: how does one join the new JAWS list

OK, I hope that our estimable group owner here on this group will not find what I'm about to do upsetting, but now I must:

Why, oh why, does there even need to be another JAWS users group on Groups.io?

It seems that all the refugees (for lack of a better term) from the now defunct group that have landed on our shores have been welcomed to our island.  Why on earth form another island, again, for information sharing about exactly the same software that we share about here?  Why not just come here and join our happy family?

What is the pressing need for JAWS user's groups two through N, at least within any given language community? What am I missing?

--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer