Date   

moderated One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong. was RE: Esoteric punctuation question.

Richard Turner
 

Here is the text of an article that I’d encourage those interested to read to the end.

 

I’ll put the link to this article at the end as well.

 

One space between each sentence, they said. Science just proved them wrong.

By  Avi Selk

Avi Selk

Reporter

May 4, 2018

 

In the beginning, the rules of the space bar were simple.  Two spaces after each period.  Every time.  Easy.

 

That made sense in the age of the typewriter. Letters of uniform width looked cramped without extra space after the period. Typists learned not to do it.

 

But then, at the end of the 20th century, the typewriter gave way to the word processor, and the computer,  and modern variable-width fonts.  And the world divided.

 

Some insisted on keeping the two-space rule.  They couldn't get used to seeing just one space after a period.  It simply looked wrong.

 

Some said this was blasphemy. The designers of modern fonts had built the perfect amount of spacing, they said. Anything more than a single space between sentences was too much.

 

And so the rules of typography fell into chaos. “Typing two spaces after a period is totally, completely, utterly, and inarguably wrong,” Farhad Manjoo wrote in Slate in 2011.  “You can have my double space when you pry it from my cold, dead hands,” Megan McArdle wrote in the Atlantic the same year.  (And yes, she double-spaced it.)

 

This schism has actually existed throughout most of typed history, the writer and type enthusiast James Felici once observed (in a single-spaced essay).

 

The rules of spacing have been wildly inconsistent going back to the invention of the printing press. The original printing of the U.S. Declaration of Independence used extra long spaces between sentences. John Baskerville's 1763 Bible used a single space. WhoevenknowswhateffectPietroBembowasgoingforhere.Single spaces. Double spaces.  Em spaces.   Trends went back and forth between continents and eras for hundreds of years, Felici wrote.It's not a good look.

 

And that's just English. Somewrittenlanguageshavenospacesatall and o thers re quire a space be tween ev e ry syl la ble.

 

Ob viously, thereneed to be standards. Unless    you're doing avant - garde po e try, or    something , you  can'tjustspacew ords ho w e v   e    r   y      o        u            want.     That would be insanity. Or at least,

obnoxious.

 

Enter three psychology researchers from Skidmore College, who decided it's time for modern science to sort this out once and for all.

 

“Professionals and amateurs in a variety of fields have passionately argued for either one or two spaces following this punctuation mark,” they wrote in a paper published last week in the journal Attention, Perception, & Psychophysics.

 

They cite dozens of theories and previous research, arguing for one space or two.  A 2005 study that found two spaces reduced lateral interference in the eye and helped reading.  A 2015 study that found the opposite.  A 1998 experiment that suggested it didn't matter.

 

“However,” they wrote, “to date, there has been no direct empirical evidence in support of these claims, nor in favor of the one-space convention.”

 

So the researchers,  Rebecca L. Johnson,  Becky Bui  and Lindsay L. Schmitt,  rounded up 60 students and some eye-tracking equipment,  and set out to heal the divide.

 

First, they put the students in front of computers and dictated a short paragraph, to see how many spaces they naturally used. Turns out, 21 of the 60 were “two-spacers,” and the rest typed with close-spaced sentences that would have horrified the Founding Fathers.

 

The researchers then clamped each student's head into place, and used an Eyelink 1000 to record where they looked as they silently read 20 paragraphs. The paragraphs were written in various styles: one-spaced, two-spaced,  and strange combinations like two spaces after commas,  but only one after periods.  And vice versa, too.

 

And the verdict was: two spaces after the period is better.  It makes reading slightly easier.  Congratulations, Yale University professor Nicholas A. Christakis.  Sorry, Lifehacker.

 

               Hurray! Science vindicates my longstanding practice, learned at age 12, of using TWO SPACES after periods in text. NOT ONE SPACE. Text is easier to read that way. Of course, on twitter, I use one space, given 280 characters. https://t.co/4xI6sVbF88 Will arm-wrestle @Neuro_Skeptic pic.twitter.com/XpEr4KFR4x

 

               — Nicholas A. Christakis (@NAChristakis) April 28, 2018

Actually, Lifehacker's one-space purist Nick Douglas pointed out some important caveats to the study's conclusion.

 

Most notably, the test subjects read paragraphs in Courier New, a fixed-width font similar to the old typewriters, and rarely used on modern computers.

 

Johnson, one of the authors, told Douglas that the fixed-width font was standard for eye-tracking tests, and the benefits of two-spacing should carry over to any modern font.

 

Douglas found more solace in the fact that the benefits of two-spacing, as described in the study, appear to be very minor.

 

Reading speed only improved marginally, the paper found, and only for the 21 “two-spacers,” who naturally typed with two spaces between sentences.  The majority of one-spacers, on the other hand, read at pretty much the same speed either way.  And reading comprehension was unaffected for everyone, regardless of how many spaces followed a period.

 

The major reason to use two spaces, the researchers wrote, was to make the reading process smoother, not faster.  Everyone tended to spend fewer milliseconds staring at periods when a little extra blank space followed it.

 

(Putting two spaces after a comma,  if you're wondering,  slowed down reading speed,  so don't do that.)

 

The study's authors concluded that two-spacers in the digital age actually have science on their side, and more research should be done to “investigate why reading is facilitated when periods are followed by two spaces.”

 

But no sooner did the paper publish than the researchers discovered that science doesn't necessarily govern matters of the space bar.

 

Johnson told Lifehacker that she and her co-authors submitted the paper with two spaces after each period — as was proper. And the journal deleted all the extra spaces anyway.

 

Note: An earlier version of this story published incorrectly because, seriously, putting two spaces in the headline broke the web code.

 

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/speaking-of-science/wp/2018/05/04/one-space-between-each-sentence-they-said-science-just-proved-them-wrong-2/

 

 

Richard

 

🖖 Live long and prosper


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Marty Hutchings
 

Thanks brian.  This one worked.  What an issue.  One more thing to bring division among folks.  Rediculas!
 
Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
 

Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:58 PM
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.
 
On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:54 PM, Marty Hutchings wrote:
Firefox said that this is a 404 page.
That's because the e-mail client broke the full link across two lines, so when you're activating it's not got the full URL.

Here it is, naked:  https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-should-never-ever-do-it.html

and, in case this should be broken, too, as click through text:  Space Invaders:  Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.

I happen to disagree, but hey.  I still use two spaces after the end of a sentence as I still find it easier to read text, even word processed text, where that convention is followed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

On Mon, Aug 19, 2019 at 10:54 PM, Marty Hutchings wrote:
Firefox said that this is a 404 page.
That's because the e-mail client broke the full link across two lines, so when you're activating it's not got the full URL.

Here it is, naked:  https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-should-never-ever-do-it.html

and, in case this should be broken, too, as click through text:  Space Invaders:  Why you should never, ever use two spaces after a period.

I happen to disagree, but hey.  I still use two spaces after the end of a sentence as I still find it easier to read text, even word processed text, where that convention is followed.
 
--

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1903, Build 18362  

Many of the insights of the saint stem from his experience as a sinner.

         ~ Eric Hoffer


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Marty Hutchings
 

Firefox said that this is a 404 page.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 4:42 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi.

At the risk of going a bit off-topic for the list -- how long ago was your
keyboarding class?
The reason people used to put two spaces after periods had to do with manual
typewriters and the "monospace" font style they used. Every character took
up exactly the same amount of horizontal space on a piece of paper, so as a
result, it could sometimes be difficult to tell there was a space at all at
the end of some sentences unless the typist used two of them. This has
changed since the advent of electric typewriters, and, indeed, computers,
with their myriad numbers of proportional font styles. In fact though, the
so-called two space rule you would have learned in keyboarding class was
introduced *only* because of the typewriter. You would not have seen a
professionally typeset book done this way.

The tone is maybe a little bit strident, but this article from Slate
explains the history of it all pretty well.
https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-shoul
d-never-ever-do-it.html


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Hutchings
Sent: August 19, 2019 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a
period at the end of each sentence. I notice too many times lately in
things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period. this could
make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the
spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist
in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@hotmail.com]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net<mailto:fenderwal@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

netbat66
 

i stopped useing capital letters years ago because this is considered yelling at the readers. grin

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:05 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Yes, that's what I just said. If a capital letter is not seen after a period, it "assumes" that the period is present for some other purpose besides ending a sentence, and thus does not pause.\
See, it's encouraging us to follow proper grammar/language rules. A good thing, surely! 8grins*


-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of netbat66
Sent: August 19, 2019 1:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no
pause at all. I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one
there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope. I’ll play with the
recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some
synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from
Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period
and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well
hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar.
Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what
you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries,
and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work
with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It
is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing
or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error,
please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic
personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose
such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which
you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from
Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional E-mails' in
the SUBJECT line.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

Hi.

At the risk of going a bit off-topic for the list -- how long ago was your
keyboarding class?
The reason people used to put two spaces after periods had to do with manual
typewriters and the "monospace" font style they used. Every character took
up exactly the same amount of horizontal space on a piece of paper, so as a
result, it could sometimes be difficult to tell there was a space at all at
the end of some sentences unless the typist used two of them. This has
changed since the advent of electric typewriters, and, indeed, computers,
with their myriad numbers of proportional font styles. In fact though, the
so-called two space rule you would have learned in keyboarding class was
introduced *only* because of the typewriter. You would not have seen a
professionally typeset book done this way.

The tone is maybe a little bit strident, but this article from Slate
explains the history of it all pretty well.
https://slate.com/technology/2011/01/two-spaces-after-a-period-why-you-shoul
d-never-ever-do-it.html

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Marty Hutchings
Sent: August 19, 2019 4:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a
period at the end of each sentence. I notice too many times lately in
things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period. this could
make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers,
against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the
spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist
in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@hotmail.com]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net<mailto:fenderwal@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: unselecting all desktop items

David Moore
 

Hello to deselect all icons on your desktop, press Windows key + m to go to your desktop. Then, Pratt hold down the Ctrl key and press the spacebar to deselect the item you are on. Then, press the applications key or shift + f10 and go down to where you can organize your desktop items. Have a great day David Moore


On Mon, Aug 19, 2019, 8:03 AM Alan Robbins <arobbin2@... wrote:

What is the Jaws key stroke to unselect everything on the desktop so I can select to alphabetize the icons?

 

Thanks,

Al           


moderated Re: updates

Panagiotis Antonopoulos
 

I too would like tu upload this step by vispero. If something needs change/fixing, I would not mind having an update each day.

                                                                Cheers,

                                                                Takis

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of Larry Wayland
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 9:40 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: updates

 

Because Micro Soft updates a lot, and no software package is perfect. It is good they do update a lot.  It is for your benefit.

Larry

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of T. Civitello
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 6:29 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

I don’t believe I have ever heard a synth take the number of spaces into account in this way. The reason for this is that some people still have the habit of leaving two spaces after a period. I don’t think this was ever the standard everywhere, but certainly in for example letter writing and other types of documents. I believe in printed books, a single space has been the standard for a really long time.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Turner
Sent: August 19, 2019 4:21 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

Good point Marty. That was the standard. But, like many things, standards have slipped. 

But, the synthesizers may have been programmed under the old standard.

It would be worth someone who is having these issues to write a few sentences with each sentence separated by one space and then some separated with two spaces and see if they have more natural pauses when two spaces separate them.

 

Richard

 

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 

 



On Aug 19, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Marty Hutchings <mhutchings152730@...> wrote:

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a period at the end of each sentence.  I notice too many times lately in things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period.  this could make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message----- From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all.  I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
  I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...<mailto:fenderwal@...>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.











moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Richard Turner
 

Good point Marty. That was the standard. But, like many things, standards have slipped. 
But, the synthesizers may have been programmed under the old standard.
It would be worth someone who is having these issues to write a few sentences with each sentence separated by one space and then some separated with two spaces and see if they have more natural pauses when two spaces separate them.


Richard

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 


On Aug 19, 2019, at 1:11 PM, Marty Hutchings <mhutchings152730@...> wrote:

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a period at the end of each sentence.  I notice too many times lately in things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period.  this could make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13
-----Original Message----- From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant@...]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all.  I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
  I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@...<mailto:fenderwal@...>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.












moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Marty Hutchings
 

I remember back in my keyboarding class that you are to put 2 spaces after a period at the end of each sentence. I notice too many times lately in things that I read that there is only 1 space after the period. this could make some difference.



Love in Christ
Marty
For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.
Therefore, take up the full armor of God, so that you will be able to resist in the evil day, and having done everything, to stand firm.
Ephesians 6:12, 13

-----Original Message-----
From: JM Casey
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.



-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@hotmail.com]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net<mailto:fenderwal@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: updates

Lino Morales
 

I'm just glad its only once a month sometimes 2 like this month.

On 8/19/2019 2:40 PM, Larry Wayland wrote:

Because Micro Soft updates a lot, and no software package is perfect. It is good they do update a lot.  It is for your benefit.

Larry

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of T. Civitello
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 6:29 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?


moderated Re: updates

Larry Wayland
 

Because Micro Soft updates a lot, and no software package is perfect. It is good they do update a lot.  It is for your benefit.

Larry

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io [mailto:main@jfw.groups.io] On Behalf Of T. Civitello
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 6:29 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: updates

 

Why so many updates to Jaws?


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

It's not JAWS or NVDA, but the synthesiser you are using, I think, that
injects pauses where appropriate, or not, as the case may be.

Why would you end a sentence and not begin the next one with a capital
letter? That is proper. The synth has rules that it tries to follow, and
those rules should approximate actual grammar rules.

What synth are you using with NVDA? If you switch to the same synth using
JAWS, I bet you will find their behaviour will also be the same. I can't
guarantee it, because this isn't something I have thought about much. I like
a very short pause; the 1core voices from Microsoft drive me nuts with their
default setting of a pause of, I think, over a second after a period.
Eloquence is about right, for me.

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Mario
Sent: August 19, 2019 2:16 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after a
period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if this
is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read, then why
does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence following a period
and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@hotmail.com]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it doesn't
make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that it's an NVDA
issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if there is
no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find
one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between
both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in
a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think Eloquence has
anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this
isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft
voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net<mailto:fenderwal@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not
work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information.
It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the
intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying,
distributing or using any of this information. If you received this
communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy
the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This
communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers
subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not
directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose
other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the
information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services
from Key send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Mario
 

I just tried with NVDA and discovered that if a following sentence after
a period and space starts with a capitol letter, the pause is there. if
this is the correct way to have a pause before a new sentense is read,
then why does JAWS pause even if the first letter of a sentence
following a period and a space is not capitolized, is this wrong?

I'd still would like to know those tweaks Robin eluded too.

-------- Original Message --------
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@hotmail.com]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 1:36 PM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it
doesn't make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that
it's an NVDA issue? if not, what can I do about it?





-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if
there is no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a
period and find one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause
between both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can
adjust this in a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think
Eloquence has anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate
(although I know this isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or
one of the Microsoft voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net<mailto:fenderwal@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS
kind of rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation
pause intervals. With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character
after char.chr dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause
interval. This does not work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To
my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential
information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you
are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from
disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If
you received this communication in error, please contact the sender
immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic
or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic personal
information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or
redisclose such information for any purpose other than to provide the
services for which you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or
services from Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the
SUBJECT line.








.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

Yes, that's what I just said. If a capital letter is not seen after a period, it "assumes" that the period is present for some other purpose besides ending a sentence, and thus does not pause.\
See, it's encouraging us to follow proper grammar/language rules. A good thing, surely! 8grins*

-----Original Message-----
From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of netbat66
Sent: August 19, 2019 1:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no
pause at all. I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one
there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope. I’ll play with the
recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some
synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from
Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period
and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well
hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar.
Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what
you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries,
and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of
rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals.
With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr
dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work
with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It
is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended
recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing
or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error,
please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety,
whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic
personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose
such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which
you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from
Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional E-mails' in
the SUBJECT line.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

netbat66
 

i know sighted people would complain about puntuation. But the only way i can get the vocalizer voices to pause at the end of a sentence is to use a comma instead of a period.
BTW.
i noticed that this message did pause on sentences.
so i investigated. grin. If you don't capatalize the first letter of the sentence jaws will not pause with the vocalizer voices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: monday, August 19, 2019 7:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.



I don’t think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no pause at all. I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope. I’ll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.













From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.





I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.







From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of fenderwal@sbcglobal.net
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.







Hi, folks.







I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries, and, a few puzzles.







Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals. With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.







Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?







Thank you in advance for your help,



Lou N.







This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114



If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

JM Casey
 

I find that Vocalizer will not pause much after a period – if it is not followed by a capital letter. This is actually a good way for me to hear when I have mistyped. Now that I have a braille display though, such nuances don’t seem so necessary.

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
Sent: August 19, 2019 10:47 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

I don’t think Vocalizer is any better.  Much of the time the pause is an acceptable level, but there are enough times when it’s almost as if there is no pause at all.  I’ll go back to see if I forgot to type a period and find one there, but Vocalizer doesn’t pause as I would hope.   I’ll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.

 

 

 

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So some synths will insert longer ones, others won’t. By default, the 1core voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause between both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can adjust this in a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don’t think Eloquence has anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate (although I know this isn’t exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or one of the Microsoft voices.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of fenderwal@...
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

 

Hi, folks.

 

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

 

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS kind of rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation pause intervals. With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character after char.chr dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause interval. This does not work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To my question.

 

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

 

Thank you in advance for your help,

Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If you received this communication in error, please contact the sender immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic personal information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or redisclose such information for any purpose other than to provide the services for which you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114


If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or services from Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@... with 'No Promotional E-mails' in the SUBJECT line.


moderated Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

Mario
 

if I may ask, what tweaks would that be? I find that using the Espeak NG
with NVDA, sometimes there is a pause after a period and sometimes there
isn't any pause. it's like two sentences spoken as one long one. it
doesn't make any difference which variant is tried. so it seems that
it's an NVDA issue? if not, what can I do about it?

-------- Original Message --------
From: Van Lant, Robin via Groups.Io
[mailto:Robin_Van_Lant=Key.com@groups.io]
To: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io>
Date: Monday, August 19, 2019, 10:47 AM
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

I don't think Vocalizer is any better. Much of the time the pause is an
acceptable level, but there are enough times when it's almost as if
there is no pause at all. I'll go back to see if I forgot to type a
period and find one there, but Vocalizer doesn't pause as I would hope.
I'll play with the recommended tweaks someone posted.





From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of JM Casey
Sent: Saturday, August 17, 2019 2:33 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Esoteric punctuation question.

I think that a pause after a period is largely synthesiser dependent. So
some synths will insert longer ones, others won't. By default, the 1core
voices from Microsoft have what is, to me, an insanely lengthy pause
between both period and the next sentence and after a comma. You can
adjust this in a very well hidden and protected .ini file. I don't think
Eloquence has anything similar. Maybe reduce the general speech rate
(although I know this isn't exactly what you want), or try Vocalizer, or
one of the Microsoft voices.


From: main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>
<main@jfw.groups.io<mailto:main@jfw.groups.io>> On Behalf Of
fenderwal@sbcglobal.net<mailto:fenderwal@sbcglobal.net>
Sent: August 17, 2019 7:05 AM
To: jfw@groups.io<mailto:jfw@groups.io>
Subject: Esoteric punctuation question.

Hi, folks.

I decided to get serious about learning JFW. Lots of interesting
discoveries, and, a few puzzles.

Here is one. I noticed that with or without punctuation spoken, JAWS
kind of rushes past what I consider to be normal length punctuation
pause intervals. With Window-Eyes, I was able to put a period character
after char.chr dictionary entries, thereby increasing the pause
interval. This does not work with the JAWS Eloquence voice, however. To
my question.

Is there a setting in JAWS to adjust punctuation pause intervals?

Thank you in advance for your help,
Lou N.



This communication may contain privileged and/or confidential
information. It is intended solely for the use of the addressee. If you
are not the intended recipient, you are strictly prohibited from
disclosing, copying, distributing or using any of this information. If
you received this communication in error, please contact the sender
immediately and destroy the material in its entirety, whether electronic
or hard copy. This communication may contain nonpublic personal
information about consumers subject to the restrictions of the
Gramm-Leach-Bliley Act. You may not directly or indirectly reuse or
redisclose such information for any purpose other than to provide the
services for which you are receiving the information.

127 Public Square, Cleveland, OH 44114
If you prefer not to receive future e-mail offers for products or
services from Key
send an e-mail to mailto:DNERequests@key.com with 'No Promotional
E-mails' in the
SUBJECT line.


moderated Re: Setting shortcut keys for apps

Dean Martineau <topdot@...>
 

Fascinating. Too many incidents of this type feed the fuel of those who disapprove of JAWS. Thanks for the feedback.

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Richard Turner
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 12:11 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Setting shortcut keys for apps

 

Dean

Well, my system running Jaws 2019 latest version and Windows 10 1903 blocks my use of desktop shortcut keys. I've had one session when Eric Damery remoted into my system and it has him and their developers stumped. There are at least two others that he is dealing with directly with the same issue.

If I unload Jaws 2019 and load Jaws 2018, all the shortcuts work perfectly.

I now use pinning my most used programs to the Task Bar and use the Windows Key with their corresponding number to launch them.

So, the whole point of this is to say, avoid making blanket statements.

 

Richard

 

Always look out for #1, and be careful not to step in #2. 

 



On Aug 19, 2019, at 8:37 AM, Zel Iscel <zel@...> wrote:



Hi Dean,

 

Thanks for your response.

I’ve successfully set the shortcut keys I wanted now so no need to discuss this further.

Cheers

Zel

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Dean Martineau
Sent: Monday, 19 August 2019 11:18 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Setting shortcut keys for apps

 

Hi.  This is all discussed in Windows Keyboard Power User Guide.  I’m not sure why you’re going to File Locations to set shortcuts, I’ve never looked there.

 

A JAWS installation will not affect any shortcut keys you’ve set in windows unless there’s a JAWS key conflict, and even then, JAWS won’t see the keystroke.

 

Perhaps give an example of a keyboard shortcut that you set before, and that doesn’t work now.  How did you set the shortcut before?  Incidentally, I know this was discussed before, but I didn’t read the thread thoroughly.

 

Thanks.

 

Dean

https://techforblind.us

 

 

From: main@jfw.groups.io <main@jfw.groups.io> On Behalf Of Zel Iscel
Sent: Monday, August 19, 2019 11:04 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Setting shortcut keys for apps

 

Hi all,

 

Sorry, I know this was covered a couple of times before but I don’t seem to have kept the resolutions. So …

 

Like Anne, I’m finding that the shortcut keys I set aren’t working in Windows 10.

 

I went to file locations, then properties and input my shortcut keys for certain apps, but was still unsuccessful. What am I doing wrong?

 

Thanks in advance for your responses, and regards

Zel

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