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Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access
Debby Hill
Hi Dave,
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I had never looked at the application manager before and you got me curious. There doesn't seem to be any scripts that are used for the remote sessions. I think it just relies on what scripts you use for the applications you are running on the local and remote computers. What they had me change in versions of JAWS prior to 12 was in the jkm (keyboard manager) file. When I started having problem in JAWS 12 with the sticky alt key, I looked for the JKM file in JAWS 12 and they don't seem to do things the same way in 12 as they did in the previous versions. Thanks for giving us another idea of a place to look. Debby
----- Original Message -----
From: "Farfar on Laptop" <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Date sent: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:12:29 -0700 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hello Kim, You can try just disabling the scripts for the remote sessions. JAWS/Options/Manage Applications Then uncheck the script(s) that relate to the remote sessions. Then press Okay to save the changes. This is very safe, and of course reversible later. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 12:02 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi Debby, I don't think I used the merge utility when I installed jaws 12, but honestly I can't remember. I thought you had to use the same versions of jaws on both the local machine and the remote machine. Is that not the case? Why did I think that? I just downloaded jaws 13 so it will be interesting to see if the sticky key problem is cleared up. I'll report back once I have time to get everything installed and test it out. Kim On 10/24/11, Debby Hill <dm-hill@comcast.net> wrote: Hi Kimber, I am sorry I left you in the lurch. I went off to have some lunch. Tech support at FS told me that they had fixed this problem in JAWS 12., So I have a couple of thoughts. Did you use the merge utility when you upgraded to JAWS 12, say from version 11. If yes, then something to try might be to uninstall version 12 and do a clean install of it and don't merge. If you didn't use the merge utility, then I hate to say it but it is probably time to call FS or send an e-mail to support@freedomscientific.com. I reported the problem sometime ago, but when I use remote desktop, I am sometimes using Jaws 12 on my local machine and JAWS 7 on the remote machine. This has to do with the application I have to use on the remote machine. (that's another shaggy dog story.) I do know what you are talking about when you have the problem. It is painful!! I usually try to see if I can unload JAWS on the remote machine and reload it. It it a struggle, but I often end up having to use Narrator. Hope something of this helps. Let me know how it turns out. Debby ----- Original Message ----- From: Kimber Gardner <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Date sent: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:32:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi Debby, I have version 12 on both the local computer and on the server. I don't see this sticky key problem in any application except during remote access sessions. But as I said, when it happens it screws up an entire session, rendering the keyboard virtually inoperable to the point that I can't even properly reboot the system but have to turn it off and back on again. K On 10/24/11, Farfar on Laptop <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Kimber, Knowing that there is a problem has never been an issue for FS. Owning up to their contribution to it, is another matter. They have traditionally blamed the Microsoft key handler as the real problem, but I don't hear my sighted colleagues ever mentioning sticky keys. Go figure, and just consider how FS's Openbook leave behind a sticky Control key as a glaring indictment of the ownership. You're right. After all these years, it would be easy for FS to build in an un-stick subroutine in their scripts or underlying code. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 07:13 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Thanks Dave. Hmm, interesting that they seem to know what causes it yet it hasn't been fixed in all these releases. I'll try the key tap solution next time it happens. Thanks again On 10/24/11, Farfar on Laptop <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Kimber, Stuck modifier keys is a very common occurrence (at least for me with all my different versions of JAWS and hardware). It's been around since JAWS 3.5 and my old HP pavilion with Windows 2000. That said, it happens most often for me after using Openbook. Your case is not unusual. Don't reboot. Just alternately rapidly tap each of the modifier keys one at a time. e.g. left alt, right alt, left alt right alt etc. several times in succession. Then do the same with control, shift, and the windows keys. If you don't have one of these as a pair, just tap the individual key rapidly. This sounds crazy but it does unstick the key. It's not a mechanical problem. It's related to the key code decoding in the JAWS processing. At least that's what FS support has said for several years. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 04:35 Subject: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi All, Not sure how many of you have used Jaws for remote access, but I would appreciate any help. When I'm signed on to my work computer via a vpn using remote desktop, occasionally the alt key seems to stick. That is whenever I press any key I first hear "alt" followed by the name of the key be that up arrow or whatever. The only way to unstick the alt key is to reboot the local computer. Is there another method for resetting the keyboard and unsticking the alt key? Thanks, Kim _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
Peter Holdstock <ptrholdstock@...>
Cheers John. Even you just talking to them about it might embaress them a little enough to get them to make the changes.
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Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: John Martyn Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 9:06 PM To: 'The Jaws for Windows support list.' Subject: RE: JAWS Scripting for a new application That is a great suggestion. I'll talk to FS about this. John -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Peter Holdstock Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:05 AM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application There's a good idea John. WLM is used by many but has it's very silly querks and it would be great if we could get an email client working perfectly well with JAWS. I reckon it would only take you a day or so to fix everything as much of it is stupid stuff like graphics not been labelled so the user has to do it themselves so it will then identify unread messages, collapsed conversations etc and the calendar function isn't ideal. Could be a quick bit of work and create many happy JAWS users. That said I know I and many others have repeatedly reported these issues to FS including during the JAWS 13 beta so hopefully they'll get off their backsides and fix them. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:54 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Hello, Does anyone know if there are scripts for the new WLM? I'm running Windows Vista and Jaws 11 and I just installed WLM. It seems as if it is utilizing ribbons instead of a menu bar, so I'm stuck with a not-so-good way of changing my settings. Also the spell check is horrible because it just tells the word that it wants to change to, not the misspelled word. I don't think this problem was on the old Windows Live Mail but I don't know how to get an earlier version of WLM. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Peter Holdstock Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:21 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application I think all of us agree that John should get some recompense for his work and I think many offered to pay something for the fnatastic Itunes scripts. Perhaps having a paypal link on his site would be a good idea for voluntary contributions although if he came up with realistic prices I'd be happy to consider whether I need the product or not. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Marquette, Ed Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:29 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: RE: JAWS Scripting for a new application At the risk of starting a conflagration of controversy, I would like to support the notion that John should get some remuneration for his hard work -- even if he charged for scripts. I know I would pay significantly for a set of scripts that made Google Docs accessable, though I think that is not feasible. The biggest single area of inaccessibility I encounter on my job is with respect to on-line collaboration. I have clients who regularly send invitations to go-to-meeting sessions where a document will be on the screen, albeit from the client's computer. We will be on the phone together, and sometimes the client will make edits he wants me to review, and sometimes he will say simply, "Here, I'll give you control. Why don't you revise this section on indemnification?" I accomplish this only with the assistance of my sighted secretary. Without her presence, I would be sunk. Serotek has something called Accessable Event, but that really doesn't cut it. Again, this may be an application of limited applicability, but I run into it all the time, and document collaboration is becoming more and more popular. I hear ads for Go-To-Meeting almost every time I tune into XM Radio, and note the popularity of Google Docs, not just because it is cheap, but also because it offers collaboration. This may simply be impossible and not everyone needs it, but if you need it, you need it bad. -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Chris Smart Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:11 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Ok, so with most of the Office applications scripted for, not toWith the basics that most people want to use daily covered, we're probably going to move into more specialized applications that not as many people require. If said application is something that some of us who work or are trying to find work need access to, maybe we should donate a little cash to John for his hard work and probably hundreds of hours spent scripting. Just a thought. Of course, any donations would be voluntary. -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com ############################################################################ ################################# ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE USED OR REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY ENTITY, INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE PURPOSE OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE. ############################################################################ ################################# This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender at 402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message. Thank you. ############################################################################ ################################# _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: JAWS Kinesis keyboard layout
Dave...
Interesting. I use a MS Natural keyboard, which splits the right and left
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hand groups with a slight tilt and spread -- very comfortable. However the Kinesis seems to be an even more radical separation with a strong tilt. I recall an admin years ago showing me her Kinesis and I was really impressed. Her Kinesis had a very triangular shape to it, and you manipulated it with your hands on each side, fingering the buttons almost with your palms facing each other. Of course many of the buttons have to be duplicated on each side to allow for reaching and I can see now that many of the JAWS multiple-key combinations would require I use my toes to help. After seeing her Kinesis I was never quite the same. I've never seen another Kinesis like that one, so I guess they are pretty rare. I saw on Amazon that you can get some variant of a Kinesis for anywhere from $31 to $300, and one Kinesis even had a foot switch. I recall that her Kinesis also had a foot switch, but I didn't investigate it. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca> To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 14:20 Subject: Re: JAWS Kinesis keyboard layout I found this in Jaws Help: "For those of you who are using any of the Kinesis keyboards, select kinesis as this implements the features of these keyboards." So, then I searched Wikipedia for Kinesis Keyboards and found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_(keyboard) Chris At 01:37 PM 10/24/2011, you wrote: Dear Friends, -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: SMA
Roy Nickelson <roylee@...>
from the help menu choose update authorization then your about box should
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show 2 then you can install jaws 13. Roy
----- Original Message -----
From: "Stan Holdeman" <sholdeman@msn.com> To: "JFW List" <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 1:03 PM Subject: SMA In about jaws in my jaws 12 Help, it says I have 0 SMA. Actually I have 2. Can I download jaws 13 and have this come out right, or must I call Freedom Scientific to get straightened out? Stan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.the-jdh.com/pipermail/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com/attachments/20111024/c42e6674/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
Peter Holdstock <ptrholdstock@...>
Do you need to be sighted to be able to script efficiently? I'm assuming it depends on what level the scripting is required i.e. at work we use an application which requires every form field on the scrreen to be input including it's location, size, type etc and that's the more basic stuff. I'm assuming to be able to do that you would physically need to be able to see the screen?
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Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Debbie Kessler Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 9:50 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application This is an area that Rehab should have looked into a long time ago; funding for small businesses to get their proprietary programs scripted. A lot of money has been spent through schools to have people trained only to have much unaccessible because of specialty programs. Debbie, Chaz & Jessie e-mail: jessesgirl@earthlink.net ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca> To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 12:10 PM Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Ok, so with most of the Office applications scripted for, not toWith the basics that most people want to use daily covered, we're probably going to move into more specialized applications that not as many people require. If said application is something that some of us who work or are trying to find work need access to, maybe we should donate a little cash to John for his hard work and probably hundreds of hours spent scripting. Just a thought. Of course, any donations would be voluntary. -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: JAWS Kinesis keyboard layout
Chris Smart <csmart8@...>
I found this in Jaws Help:
"For those of you who are using any of the Kinesis keyboards, select kinesis as this implements the features of these keyboards." So, then I searched Wikipedia for Kinesis Keyboards and found: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinesis_(keyboard) Chris At 01:37 PM 10/24/2011, you wrote: Dear Friends, -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
Debbie Kessler
This is an area that Rehab should have looked into a long time ago; funding
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
for small businesses to get their proprietary programs scripted. A lot of money has been spent through schools to have people trained only to have much unaccessible because of specialty programs. Debbie, Chaz & Jessie e-mail: jessesgirl@earthlink.net
----- Original Message -----
From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca> To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 12:10 PM Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Ok, so with most of the Office applications scripted for, not toWith the basics that most people want to use daily covered, we're probably going to move into more specialized applications that not as many people require. If said application is something that some of us who work or are trying to find work need access to, maybe we should donate a little cash to John for his hard work and probably hundreds of hours spent scripting. Just a thought. Of course, any donations would be voluntary. -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
John Martyn
That is a great suggestion. I'll talk to FS about this.
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John
-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Peter Holdstock Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:05 AM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application There's a good idea John. WLM is used by many but has it's very silly querks and it would be great if we could get an email client working perfectly well with JAWS. I reckon it would only take you a day or so to fix everything as much of it is stupid stuff like graphics not been labelled so the user has to do it themselves so it will then identify unread messages, collapsed conversations etc and the calendar function isn't ideal. Could be a quick bit of work and create many happy JAWS users. That said I know I and many others have repeatedly reported these issues to FS including during the JAWS 13 beta so hopefully they'll get off their backsides and fix them. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:54 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Hello, Does anyone know if there are scripts for the new WLM? I'm running Windows Vista and Jaws 11 and I just installed WLM. It seems as if it is utilizing ribbons instead of a menu bar, so I'm stuck with a not-so-good way of changing my settings. Also the spell check is horrible because it just tells the word that it wants to change to, not the misspelled word. I don't think this problem was on the old Windows Live Mail but I don't know how to get an earlier version of WLM. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Peter Holdstock Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:21 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application I think all of us agree that John should get some recompense for his work and I think many offered to pay something for the fnatastic Itunes scripts. Perhaps having a paypal link on his site would be a good idea for voluntary contributions although if he came up with realistic prices I'd be happy to consider whether I need the product or not. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Marquette, Ed Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:29 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: RE: JAWS Scripting for a new application At the risk of starting a conflagration of controversy, I would like to support the notion that John should get some remuneration for his hard work -- even if he charged for scripts. I know I would pay significantly for a set of scripts that made Google Docs accessable, though I think that is not feasible. The biggest single area of inaccessibility I encounter on my job is with respect to on-line collaboration. I have clients who regularly send invitations to go-to-meeting sessions where a document will be on the screen, albeit from the client's computer. We will be on the phone together, and sometimes the client will make edits he wants me to review, and sometimes he will say simply, "Here, I'll give you control. Why don't you revise this section on indemnification?" I accomplish this only with the assistance of my sighted secretary. Without her presence, I would be sunk. Serotek has something called Accessable Event, but that really doesn't cut it. Again, this may be an application of limited applicability, but I run into it all the time, and document collaboration is becoming more and more popular. I hear ads for Go-To-Meeting almost every time I tune into XM Radio, and note the popularity of Google Docs, not just because it is cheap, but also because it offers collaboration. This may simply be impossible and not everyone needs it, but if you need it, you need it bad. -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Chris Smart Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:11 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Ok, so with most of the Office applications scripted for, not toWith the basics that most people want to use daily covered, we're probably going to move into more specialized applications that not as many people require. If said application is something that some of us who work or are trying to find work need access to, maybe we should donate a little cash to John for his hard work and probably hundreds of hours spent scripting. Just a thought. Of course, any donations would be voluntary. -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com ############################################################################ ################################# ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE USED OR REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY ENTITY, INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE PURPOSE OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE. ############################################################################ ################################# This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender at 402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message. Thank you. ############################################################################ ################################# _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access
Debby Hill
Hi Kim,
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I guess I never knew that you can't run two different versions and I just did it. Before JAWS 12 and once I made the changes that FS told me to make in each version I was running remotely, it worked. But now if I am running JAWS 12 on the local machine and something else on the remote machine I can get the problem back. That as you know is no fun!! I will be interested to see if installing of JAWS 13 fixes it. Debby
----- Original Message -----
From: Kimber Gardner <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Date sent: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 15:02:58 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi Debby, I don't think I used the merge utility when I installed jaws 12, but honestly I can't remember. I thought you had to use the same versions of jaws on both the local machine and the remote machine. Is that not the case? Why did I think that? I just downloaded jaws 13 so it will be interesting to see if the sticky key problem is cleared up. I'll report back once I have time to get everything installed and test it out. Kim On 10/24/11, Debby Hill <dm-hill@comcast.net> wrote: Hi Kimber, I am sorry I left you in the lurch. I went off to have some lunch. Tech support at FS told me that they had fixed this problem in JAWS 12., So I have a couple of thoughts. Did you use the merge utility when you upgraded to JAWS 12, say from version 11. If yes, then something to try might be to uninstall version 12 and do a clean install of it and don't merge. If you didn't use the merge utility, then I hate to say it but it is probably time to call FS or send an e-mail to support@freedomscientific.com. I reported the problem sometime ago, but when I use remote desktop, I am sometimes using Jaws 12 on my local machine and JAWS 7 on the remote machine. This has to do with the application I have to use on the remote machine. (that's another shaggy dog story.) I do know what you are talking about when you have the problem. It is painful!! I usually try to see if I can unload JAWS on the remote machine and reload it. It it a struggle, but I often end up having to use Narrator. Hope something of this helps. Let me know how it turns out. Debby ----- Original Message ----- From: Kimber Gardner <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Date sent: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:32:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi Debby, I have version 12 on both the local computer and on the server. I don't see this sticky key problem in any application except during remote access sessions. But as I said, when it happens it screws up an entire session, rendering the keyboard virtually inoperable to the point that I can't even properly reboot the system but have to turn it off and back on again. K On 10/24/11, Farfar on Laptop <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Kimber, Knowing that there is a problem has never been an issue for FS. Owning up to their contribution to it, is another matter. They have traditionally blamed the Microsoft key handler as the real problem, but I don't hear my sighted colleagues ever mentioning sticky keys. Go figure, and just consider how FS's Openbook leave behind a sticky Control key as a glaring indictment of the ownership. You're right. After all these years, it would be easy for FS to build in an un-stick subroutine in their scripts or underlying code. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 07:13 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Thanks Dave. Hmm, interesting that they seem to know what causes it yet it hasn't been fixed in all these releases. I'll try the key tap solution next time it happens. Thanks again On 10/24/11, Farfar on Laptop <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Kimber, Stuck modifier keys is a very common occurrence (at least for me with all my different versions of JAWS and hardware). It's been around since JAWS 3.5 and my old HP pavilion with Windows 2000. That said, it happens most often for me after using Openbook. Your case is not unusual. Don't reboot. Just alternately rapidly tap each of the modifier keys one at a time. e.g. left alt, right alt, left alt right alt etc. several times in succession. Then do the same with control, shift, and the windows keys. If you don't have one of these as a pair, just tap the individual key rapidly. This sounds crazy but it does unstick the key. It's not a mechanical problem. It's related to the key code decoding in the JAWS processing. At least that's what FS support has said for several years. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 04:35 Subject: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi All, Not sure how many of you have used Jaws for remote access, but I would appreciate any help. When I'm signed on to my work computer via a vpn using remote desktop, occasionally the alt key seems to stick. That is whenever I press any key I first hear "alt" followed by the name of the key be that up arrow or whatever. The only way to unstick the alt key is to reboot the local computer. Is there another method for resetting the keyboard and unsticking the alt key? Thanks, Kim _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access
Dave...
Hello Kim,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
You can try just disabling the scripts for the remote sessions. JAWS/Options/Manage Applications Then uncheck the script(s) that relate to the remote sessions. Then press Okay to save the changes. This is very safe, and of course reversible later. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area
----- Original Message -----
From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com> To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 12:02 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi Debby, I don't think I used the merge utility when I installed jaws 12, but honestly I can't remember. I thought you had to use the same versions of jaws on both the local machine and the remote machine. Is that not the case? Why did I think that? I just downloaded jaws 13 so it will be interesting to see if the sticky key problem is cleared up. I'll report back once I have time to get everything installed and test it out. Kim On 10/24/11, Debby Hill <dm-hill@comcast.net> wrote: Hi Kimber, -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access
Kimber Gardner
Hi Debby,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I don't think I used the merge utility when I installed jaws 12, but honestly I can't remember. I thought you had to use the same versions of jaws on both the local machine and the remote machine. Is that not the case? Why did I think that? I just downloaded jaws 13 so it will be interesting to see if the sticky key problem is cleared up. I'll report back once I have time to get everything installed and test it out. Kim
On 10/24/11, Debby Hill <dm-hill@comcast.net> wrote:
Hi Kimber, --
Kimberly
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
Chris Smart <csmart8@...>
Hi Dave.Ok, your point is well-taken. I guess I'll amend my comment to say that if you were going to learn a first programming language, Jaws scripting would be an easy one, compared to say C, especially with the Script manager and other things helping you generate the necessary code. Chris -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
Peter Holdstock <ptrholdstock@...>
C Cleaner is already fully accessible!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: kaveinthran Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 5:25 AM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application hi sir, You can try adobe audition or CCleaner or, even audacity On 10/24/2011 2:21 AM, John Martyn wrote: Hi all,_______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access
Debby Hill
Hi Kimber,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
I am sorry I left you in the lurch. I went off to have some lunch. Tech support at FS told me that they had fixed this problem in JAWS 12., So I have a couple of thoughts. Did you use the merge utility when you upgraded to JAWS 12, say from version 11. If yes, then something to try might be to uninstall version 12 and do a clean install of it and don't merge. If you didn't use the merge utility, then I hate to say it but it is probably time to call FS or send an e-mail to support@freedomscientific.com. I reported the problem sometime ago, but when I use remote desktop, I am sometimes using Jaws 12 on my local machine and JAWS 7 on the remote machine. This has to do with the application I have to use on the remote machine. (that's another shaggy dog story.) I do know what you are talking about when you have the problem. It is painful!! I usually try to see if I can unload JAWS on the remote machine and reload it. It it a struggle, but I often end up having to use Narrator. Hope something of this helps. Let me know how it turns out. Debby
----- Original Message -----
From: Kimber Gardner <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Date sent: Mon, 24 Oct 2011 12:32:01 -0400 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi Debby, I have version 12 on both the local computer and on the server. I don't see this sticky key problem in any application except during remote access sessions. But as I said, when it happens it screws up an entire session, rendering the keyboard virtually inoperable to the point that I can't even properly reboot the system but have to turn it off and back on again. K On 10/24/11, Farfar on Laptop <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Kimber, Knowing that there is a problem has never been an issue for FS. Owning up to their contribution to it, is another matter. They have traditionally blamed the Microsoft key handler as the real problem, but I don't hear my sighted colleagues ever mentioning sticky keys. Go figure, and just consider how FS's Openbook leave behind a sticky Control key as a glaring indictment of the ownership. You're right. After all these years, it would be easy for FS to build in an un-stick subroutine in their scripts or underlying code. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 07:13 Subject: Re: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Thanks Dave. Hmm, interesting that they seem to know what causes it yet it hasn't been fixed in all these releases. I'll try the key tap solution next time it happens. Thanks again On 10/24/11, Farfar on Laptop <dgcarlson@sbcglobal.net> wrote: Kimber, Stuck modifier keys is a very common occurrence (at least for me with all my different versions of JAWS and hardware). It's been around since JAWS 3.5 and my old HP pavilion with Windows 2000. That said, it happens most often for me after using Openbook. Your case is not unusual. Don't reboot. Just alternately rapidly tap each of the modifier keys one at a time. e.g. left alt, right alt, left alt right alt etc. several times in succession. Then do the same with control, shift, and the windows keys. If you don't have one of these as a pair, just tap the individual key rapidly. This sounds crazy but it does unstick the key. It's not a mechanical problem. It's related to the key code decoding in the JAWS processing. At least that's what FS support has said for several years. Dave Carlson Sent from my Dell Latitude E6520 using Windows 7, San Francisco Bay Area ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kimber Gardner" <kimbersinbox1963@gmail.com To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 04:35 Subject: Weird keyboard behavior during remote access Hi All, Not sure how many of you have used Jaws for remote access, but I would appreciate any help. When I'm signed on to my work computer via a vpn using remote desktop, occasionally the alt key seems to stick. That is whenever I press any key I first hear "alt" followed by the name of the key be that up arrow or whatever. The only way to unstick the alt key is to reboot the local computer. Is there another method for resetting the keyboard and unsticking the alt key? Thanks, Kim _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com -- Kimberly _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: SMA
Charles Coe
Hi,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
You should be able to find out about the number of SMA you have by going to the FS Activate page. www.fsactivate.com You will have to enter your JAWS serial number in order to find this out.
-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Stan Holdeman Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:04 AM To: JFW List Subject: SMA In about jaws in my jaws 12 Help, it says I have 0 SMA. Actually I have 2. Can I download jaws 13 and have this come out right, or must I call Freedom Scientific to get straightened out? Stan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.the-jdh.com/pipermail/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com/attachments/201110 24/c42e6674/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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JAWS Kinesis keyboard layout
Sameer
Dear Friends,
In JAWS keyboard settings, we have three options - Desktop, Laptop & Kinesis. While the first two keyboard settings are self-explanatory, the Kinesis setting is not. Kindly inform me as to when the Kinesis keyboard setting in JAWS would be used. Also, is there any list of keystrokes for this keyboard setting? Thanking you all in advance for any & all assistance. Regards Mr. Sameer Latey Mumbai, India -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.the-jdh.com/pipermail/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com/attachments/20111024/8ee2920b/attachment.html>
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
Brandon Keith Biggs <brandonboy13@...>
Oh, thank you! I had no idea about that command!
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Jaws doesn't look more complicated than scripting for any other application. You just need to have a deep understanding of Jaws and a good understanding of the application you want to script. Then you have to grasp the fact that scripting is not programing, because you aren’t creating anything new. You are just telling Jaws what to do. Then you need to read and memorize all the formatting issues you have to cover in your lines of script, then you have to have your reference guide up every time you want to script because I've herd Jaws is harder than normal to write. (you have to learn what "include", "let" "string" "Function Retrieve", "Handle" "int" and all those single words or abbreviations stand for and what they do. If you are willing to do that than scripting shouldn't be too difficult. Thanks, P.S. Does anyone know if Jaws has a record command function? So you can create strings of commands Jaws will execute with an alias? Or I think that's called macroing or Aliasing. Because that would be the only time I'd ever feel worth learning another scripting language. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs
-----Original Message-----
From: Dave Scrimenti Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 9:35 AM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Perhaps I'm overestimating the difficulty, but I certainly wouldn't want to do scripting without knowing programming. If you want to know what it's like, hit jaws key plus zero in a scripted application to read the scripts. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chris Smart" <csmart8@cogeco.ca> To: "The Jaws for Windows support list." <jfw@lists.the-jdh.com> Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 9:39 AM Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Go into Start Menu, Jaws, Explore Jaws, and press ENTER on Explore the Manuals. That will open a folder. Press ENTER on. _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: SMA
Kimsan <kimsansong@...>
Everyone has politely told me to contact fs when I had questions like that,
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
so I would call them or email them.
-----Original Message-----
From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Stan Holdeman Sent: Monday, October 24, 2011 10:04 AM To: JFW List Subject: SMA In about jaws in my jaws 12 Help, it says I have 0 SMA. Actually I have 2. Can I download jaws 13 and have this come out right, or must I call Freedom Scientific to get straightened out? Stan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.the-jdh.com/pipermail/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com/attachments/201110 24/c42e6674/attachment.html> _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application
Peter Holdstock <ptrholdstock@...>
There's a good idea John. WLM is used by many but has it's very silly querks and it would be great if we could get an email client working perfectly well with JAWS. I reckon it would only take you a day or so to fix everything as much of it is stupid stuff like graphics not been labelled so the user has to do it themselves so it will then identify unread messages, collapsed conversations etc and the calendar function isn't ideal. Could be a quick bit of work and create many happy JAWS users. That said I know I and many others have repeatedly reported these issues to FS including during the JAWS 13 beta so hopefully they'll get off their backsides and fix them.
toggle quoted messageShow quoted text
Peter
-----Original Message-----
From: Brandon Keith Biggs Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 9:54 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Hello, Does anyone know if there are scripts for the new WLM? I'm running Windows Vista and Jaws 11 and I just installed WLM. It seems as if it is utilizing ribbons instead of a menu bar, so I'm stuck with a not-so-good way of changing my settings. Also the spell check is horrible because it just tells the word that it wants to change to, not the misspelled word. I don't think this problem was on the old Windows Live Mail but I don't know how to get an earlier version of WLM. Thanks, Brandon Keith Biggs -----Original Message----- From: Peter Holdstock Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 1:21 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application I think all of us agree that John should get some recompense for his work and I think many offered to pay something for the fnatastic Itunes scripts. Perhaps having a paypal link on his site would be a good idea for voluntary contributions although if he came up with realistic prices I'd be happy to consider whether I need the product or not. Peter -----Original Message----- From: Marquette, Ed Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 8:29 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: RE: JAWS Scripting for a new application At the risk of starting a conflagration of controversy, I would like to support the notion that John should get some remuneration for his hard work -- even if he charged for scripts. I know I would pay significantly for a set of scripts that made Google Docs accessable, though I think that is not feasible. The biggest single area of inaccessibility I encounter on my job is with respect to on-line collaboration. I have clients who regularly send invitations to go-to-meeting sessions where a document will be on the screen, albeit from the client's computer. We will be on the phone together, and sometimes the client will make edits he wants me to review, and sometimes he will say simply, "Here, I'll give you control. Why don't you revise this section on indemnification?" I accomplish this only with the assistance of my sighted secretary. Without her presence, I would be sunk. Serotek has something called Accessable Event, but that really doesn't cut it. Again, this may be an application of limited applicability, but I run into it all the time, and document collaboration is becoming more and more popular. I hear ads for Go-To-Meeting almost every time I tune into XM Radio, and note the popularity of Google Docs, not just because it is cheap, but also because it offers collaboration. This may simply be impossible and not everyone needs it, but if you need it, you need it bad. -----Original Message----- From: jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com [mailto:jfw-bounces@lists.the-jdh.com] On Behalf Of Chris Smart Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2011 2:11 PM To: The Jaws for Windows support list. Subject: Re: JAWS Scripting for a new application Ok, so with most of the Office applications scripted for, not toWith the basics that most people want to use daily covered, we're probably going to move into more specialized applications that not as many people require. If said application is something that some of us who work or are trying to find work need access to, maybe we should donate a little cash to John for his hard work and probably hundreds of hours spent scripting. Just a thought. Of course, any donations would be voluntary. -------------------------------------------------- CTS MASTERING: PROFESSIONAL MIXING AND MASTERING Clear True Sound www.ctsmastering.com and be sure to "like us" on Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/pages/CTS-Mastering/139114066128698 _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com ############################################################################################################# ANY FEDERAL TAX ADVICE CONTAINED IN THIS MESSAGE SHOULD NOT BE USED OR REFERRED TO IN THE PROMOTING, MARKETING OR RECOMMENDING OF ANY ENTITY, INVESTMENT PLAN OR ARRANGEMENT, AND SUCH ADVICE IS NOT INTENDED OR WRITTEN TO BE USED, AND CANNOT BE USED, BY A TAXPAYER FOR THE PURPOSE OF AVOIDING PENALTIES UNDER THE INTERNAL REVENUE CODE. ############################################################################################################# This E-mail message is confidential, is intended only for the named recipient(s) above and may contain information that is privileged, attorney work product or otherwise protected by applicable law. If you have received this message in error, please notify the sender at 402-346-6000 and delete this E-mail message. Thank you. ############################################################################################################# _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com _______________________________________________ Jfw mailing list Jfw@lists.the-jdh.com http://lists.the-jdh.com/mailman/listinfo/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com
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SMA
Stan Holdeman
In about jaws in my jaws 12 Help, it says I have 0 SMA. Actually I have 2. Can I download jaws 13 and have this come out right, or must I call Freedom Scientific to get straightened out?
Stan -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <http://lists.the-jdh.com/pipermail/jfw_lists.the-jdh.com/attachments/20111024/c42e6674/attachment.html>
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