Date   

Re: what key stroke for clickable

Alan Robbins <alan1057@...>
 

Tom,

 

Thanks, I knew I remembered this had some negative consequences.

Al

 

From: Bissett, Tom [mailto:tom.bissett@...]
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 9:48 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Having the pcCursor tethered to the jaws cursor can activate items that would not otherwise be activated because as the PcCursor passes over items like buttons and other controls it can automatically activate them depending on how the software is programmed. 

For example when in menus this can cause the focus to jump into submenus preventing you from being able to just arrow through the main menu structure because it keeps activating the submenus.

Regards

Tom Bisset

 

From: Alan Robbins [mailto:alan1057@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 3:19 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Bill,

 

I can’t remember what the consequence was but I do remember reading on a list that keeping the Jaws cursor tethered to the PC cursor caused some type of issue until that person turned it off. Wish I could remember but if folks do this and begin to have issues they did not previously, try untethering to see if this solves the new problem

 

Al

 

From: Bill White [mailto:billwhite92701@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:16 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Hi, Joseph. On the desktop keyboard layout for JAWS,

the toggle is:

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

Tether JAWS to PC

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

 Control plus Insert plus NumPad Minus.

 

The first time you press this key combination, JAWS will say:

 

""The JAWS Cursor will follow the PC Cursor".

 

The second time you press the same key combination, JAWS will say:

 

" The JAWS Cursor will not follow the PC Cursor".

 

There doesn't seem to be a corresponding Laptop Keystroke, because if you use Capslock plus Left Bracket, it continues to say,

 

"Root JAWS to PC".

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 6:50 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

never heard of this "teathering" how do you toggle it:)

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 7:01 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Another thing that works is to simply tether the two cursors (”JAWS will Follow PC”) short-term.  That way, when you get to where you want to click, the mouse

 

cursor should be where you need it.  Tethering and untethering can be done quickly.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Mark,

          I presume you mean to actually cause a click to be done on a clickable object.  What follows presumes a desktop keyboard layout, even if you're using a laptop where you have a full sized keyboard and desktop layout is in use.  See the JAWS Keystrokes documentation for laptop equivalents.

          I always teach clients to route the PC cursor to the JAWS cursor, INSERT+NUM PAD PLUS, followed by the JAWS keystroke for left mouse button, NUM PAD SLASH.  It's been a while since I last did this.  If you have a specific page you'd like me to check I can do a test using the same commands in NVDA, since I don't have JAWS on my own machine.

Brian



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: what key stroke for clickable

Bissett, Tom <tom.bissett@...>
 

Having the pcCursor tethered to the jaws cursor can activate items that would not otherwise be activated because as the PcCursor passes over items like buttons and other controls it can automatically activate them depending on how the software is programmed. 

For example when in menus this can cause the focus to jump into submenus preventing you from being able to just arrow through the main menu structure because it keeps activating the submenus.

Regards

Tom Bisset

 

From: Alan Robbins [mailto:alan1057@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 3:19 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Bill,

 

I can’t remember what the consequence was but I do remember reading on a list that keeping the Jaws cursor tethered to the PC cursor caused some type of issue until that person turned it off. Wish I could remember but if folks do this and begin to have issues they did not previously, try untethering to see if this solves the new problem

 

Al

 

From: Bill White [mailto:billwhite92701@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:16 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Hi, Joseph. On the desktop keyboard layout for JAWS,

the toggle is:

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

Tether JAWS to PC

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

 Control plus Insert plus NumPad Minus.

 

The first time you press this key combination, JAWS will say:

 

""The JAWS Cursor will follow the PC Cursor".

 

The second time you press the same key combination, JAWS will say:

 

" The JAWS Cursor will not follow the PC Cursor".

 

There doesn't seem to be a corresponding Laptop Keystroke, because if you use Capslock plus Left Bracket, it continues to say,

 

"Root JAWS to PC".

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 6:50 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

never heard of this "teathering" how do you toggle it:)

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 7:01 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Another thing that works is to simply tether the two cursors (”JAWS will Follow PC”) short-term.  That way, when you get to where you want to click, the mouse

 

cursor should be where you need it.  Tethering and untethering can be done quickly.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Mark,

          I presume you mean to actually cause a click to be done on a clickable object.  What follows presumes a desktop keyboard layout, even if you're using a laptop where you have a full sized keyboard and desktop layout is in use.  See the JAWS Keystrokes documentation for laptop equivalents.

          I always teach clients to route the PC cursor to the JAWS cursor, INSERT+NUM PAD PLUS, followed by the JAWS keystroke for left mouse button, NUM PAD SLASH.  It's been a while since I last did this.  If you have a specific page you'd like me to check I can do a test using the same commands in NVDA, since I don't have JAWS on my own machine.

Brian



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: what key stroke for clickable

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

You’re right.  I would never suggest tethering as a default, only to meet a specific situation.

 

Ted

From: Alan Robbins [mailto:alan1057@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 3:19 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Bill,

 

I can’t remember what the consequence was but I do remember reading on a list that keeping the Jaws cursor tethered to the PC cursor caused some type of issue until that person turned it off. Wish I could remember but if folks do this and begin to have issues they did not previously, try untethering to see if this solves the new problem

 

Al

 

From: Bill White [mailto:billwhite92701@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:16 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Hi, Joseph. On the desktop keyboard layout for JAWS,

the toggle is:

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

Tether JAWS to PC

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

 Control plus Insert plus NumPad Minus.

 

The first time you press this key combination, JAWS will say:

 

""The JAWS Cursor will follow the PC Cursor".

 

The second time you press the same key combination, JAWS will say:

 

" The JAWS Cursor will not follow the PC Cursor".

 

There doesn't seem to be a corresponding Laptop Keystroke, because if you use Capslock plus Left Bracket, it continues to say,

 

"Root JAWS to PC".

Bill White billwhite92701@...

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 6:50 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

never heard of this "teathering" how do you toggle it:)

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 7:01 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Another thing that works is to simply tether the two cursors (”JAWS will Follow PC”) short-term.  That way, when you get to where you want to click, the mouse

 

cursor should be where you need it.  Tethering and untethering can be done quickly.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Mark,

          I presume you mean to actually cause a click to be done on a clickable object.  What follows presumes a desktop keyboard layout, even if you're using a laptop where you have a full sized keyboard and desktop layout is in use.  See the JAWS Keystrokes documentation for laptop equivalents.

          I always teach clients to route the PC cursor to the JAWS cursor, INSERT+NUM PAD PLUS, followed by the JAWS keystroke for left mouse button, NUM PAD SLASH.  It's been a while since I last did this.  If you have a specific page you'd like me to check I can do a test using the same commands in NVDA, since I don't have JAWS on my own machine.

Brian



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: what key stroke for clickable

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Line-by-line can be tricky, although we have to do it  that way.  You can miss something that is right in front of you, simply because you don’t know to look for it.  I’ll never forget when I first began learning to read pharmacy screens that told all about a particular drug—its formulary status, its NDC, its DESI rating-rebate status, and a bunch of other things spread over two screens.   A senior specialist helped me by telling me what I really needed to know to handle the typical situation, and I began tightening my focus.

 

Ted

 

From: Kevin Hourigan [mailto:kevinthourigan@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 7:55 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Ditto

 

From: Londa Peterson [mailto:lpeterson@...]
Sent: April 4, 2016 8:48 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

 I've never tried reading large chunks of text that way. I typically use this method when JAWS won't read any other way. I'm also finding that smart navigation helps on many pages because it reads large bars of links all at once. I teach people to avoid that information blackout by reading a webpage in its entirety and notice how it's structured. For example, are there headings, tables or other elements that they could navigate by? Using the various lists is also a good idea especially if you know what you're looking for. If you don't, though, I find that using those lists just pulls things out of context for me. I want to see the whole page. Letting JAWS read it to me is the only way that I can avoid missing something. I know that I often don't have a true picture of the page, but I get one that works for me. I find that it's better to take my time on a new site rather than try to rush and miss something. Once I know what's there, then I can focus on efficiency. I use the touch screen if someone tries to tell me where something is. Then I can locate it and see what it is. Then I can use my JAWS techniques to get there the next time. I think at least some of that information blackout can be avoided by taking some extra time initially. By the way, I never use the mouse. I find it completely useless. I don't feel like it really gives me a picture of the screen at all. Maybe that's because I do have a small amount of spatial challenge though. I hope this perspective of a person who has been totally blind since birth helps.   

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:51 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Londa Peterson offered, "Get a touch screen. The best way to know what a page really looks like on the screen is to be able to explore the screen with your finger. There are times when knowing what the screen actually looks like can be very helpful.

First, a big "Amen!" to that last observation, whether one has a touch screen or not.  Another regular in these parts has used the term "information blackout" to describe what occurs very often for blind screen-reader users.  Another private correspondent said to me, "You see a web page as a whole, a gestalt.  I, on the other hand, have to read line by line if I want to see the entire page, and I have to build the gestalt in my mind.  Sometimes that is easy, sometimes, it's nigh onto impossible!"  My personal observation after my time doing what I'm doing is that the "well-nigh impossible" situation applies far more often than having any easy and coherent way with a screen reader to get a sense of the gestalt of any given web page that is anything beyond extremely simple.  It takes for-freakin'-ever to come close to knowing "all about what's there" by going through enough material item by item.  You generally never get through it all, and there are plenty of instances where some little gem is at the end of the list of links, headers, etc., and reaching it never occurs.

I have never dealt with JAWS on a touch screen machine simply because none of my clients using JAWS has a touch screen machine.  If you glide over the touch screen with your finger is JAWS announcing what it sees beneath your finger?  Does it begin to read text if you land on a chunk of text, such as on a newspaper's webpage?

If these behaviors occur either with finger gliding on a touch screen or mouse/mousepad gliding in a non-touch screen environment this is something that I'd like to begin teaching my students to exploit as a "quick and dirty" way to get a sense of what's on the webpage.  I've never thought about trying this with JAWS at all, probably because most of my clients don't use a mouse and that takes the option, literally and metaphorically, off the table unless I were to introduce mouse use.

There is so much potential there as far as selective use of mouse/finger pointer and getting a much better idea of what may or may not be present than using (and I hasten to add, I teach and use them) the techniques that Joshua Hori mentioned.  I'd love to combine quick pointer scanning with the more conventional techniques once a user determines that there's something there that's worth exploring in more depth and more methodically.

Brian

 


Accessible Desktop Calendar

Elise Berkley
 

Hello, everyone.  I am having the hardest time looking for an accessible desktop calendar.  I was using a calendar called “Webie”.  This site had other accessible items, and I really loved it.  I needed to reinstall it, but I cannot find it anymore.  Can you tell me what calendars you are using?  I really need it to keep track of my assignments and appointments.  Thanks.
Elise


Re: what key stroke for clickable

Alan Robbins <alan1057@...>
 

Bill,

 

I can’t remember what the consequence was but I do remember reading on a list that keeping the Jaws cursor tethered to the PC cursor caused some type of issue until that person turned it off. Wish I could remember but if folks do this and begin to have issues they did not previously, try untethering to see if this solves the new problem

 

Al

 

From: Bill White [mailto:billwhite92701@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:16 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Hi, Joseph. On the desktop keyboard layout for JAWS,

the toggle is:

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

Tether JAWS to PC

CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS

 Control plus Insert plus NumPad Minus.

 

The first time you press this key combination, JAWS will say:

 

""The JAWS Cursor will follow the PC Cursor".

 

The second time you press the same key combination, JAWS will say:

 

" The JAWS Cursor will not follow the PC Cursor".

 

There doesn't seem to be a corresponding Laptop Keystroke, because if you use Capslock plus Left Bracket, it continues to say,

 

"Root JAWS to PC".

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 6:50 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

never heard of this "teathering" how do you toggle it:)

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 7:01 AM

Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Another thing that works is to simply tether the two cursors (”JAWS will Follow PC”) short-term.  That way, when you get to where you want to click, the mouse

 

cursor should be where you need it.  Tethering and untethering can be done quickly.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Mark,

          I presume you mean to actually cause a click to be done on a clickable object.  What follows presumes a desktop keyboard layout, even if you're using a laptop where you have a full sized keyboard and desktop layout is in use.  See the JAWS Keystrokes documentation for laptop equivalents.

          I always teach clients to route the PC cursor to the JAWS cursor, INSERT+NUM PAD PLUS, followed by the JAWS keystroke for left mouse button, NUM PAD SLASH.  It's been a while since I last did this.  If you have a specific page you'd like me to check I can do a test using the same commands in NVDA, since I don't have JAWS on my own machine.

Brian



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 13277 (20160403) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: what key stroke for clickable

"Kevin Hourigan " <kevinthourigan@...>
 

Ditto

 

From: Londa Peterson [mailto:lpeterson@...]
Sent: April 4, 2016 8:48 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

 I've never tried reading large chunks of text that way. I typically use this method when JAWS won't read any other way. I'm also finding that smart navigation helps on many pages because it reads large bars of links all at once. I teach people to avoid that information blackout by reading a webpage in its entirety and notice how it's structured. For example, are there headings, tables or other elements that they could navigate by? Using the various lists is also a good idea especially if you know what you're looking for. If you don't, though, I find that using those lists just pulls things out of context for me. I want to see the whole page. Letting JAWS read it to me is the only way that I can avoid missing something. I know that I often don't have a true picture of the page, but I get one that works for me. I find that it's better to take my time on a new site rather than try to rush and miss something. Once I know what's there, then I can focus on efficiency. I use the touch screen if someone tries to tell me where something is. Then I can locate it and see what it is. Then I can use my JAWS techniques to get there the next time. I think at least some of that information blackout can be avoided by taking some extra time initially. By the way, I never use the mouse. I find it completely useless. I don't feel like it really gives me a picture of the screen at all. Maybe that's because I do have a small amount of spatial challenge though. I hope this perspective of a person who has been totally blind since birth helps.   

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:51 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Londa Peterson offered, "Get a touch screen. The best way to know what a page really looks like on the screen is to be able to explore the screen with your finger. There are times when knowing what the screen actually looks like can be very helpful.

First, a big "Amen!" to that last observation, whether one has a touch screen or not.  Another regular in these parts has used the term "information blackout" to describe what occurs very often for blind screen-reader users.  Another private correspondent said to me, "You see a web page as a whole, a gestalt.  I, on the other hand, have to read line by line if I want to see the entire page, and I have to build the gestalt in my mind.  Sometimes that is easy, sometimes, it's nigh onto impossible!"  My personal observation after my time doing what I'm doing is that the "well-nigh impossible" situation applies far more often than having any easy and coherent way with a screen reader to get a sense of the gestalt of any given web page that is anything beyond extremely simple.  It takes for-freakin'-ever to come close to knowing "all about what's there" by going through enough material item by item.  You generally never get through it all, and there are plenty of instances where some little gem is at the end of the list of links, headers, etc., and reaching it never occurs.

I have never dealt with JAWS on a touch screen machine simply because none of my clients using JAWS has a touch screen machine.  If you glide over the touch screen with your finger is JAWS announcing what it sees beneath your finger?  Does it begin to read text if you land on a chunk of text, such as on a newspaper's webpage?

If these behaviors occur either with finger gliding on a touch screen or mouse/mousepad gliding in a non-touch screen environment this is something that I'd like to begin teaching my students to exploit as a "quick and dirty" way to get a sense of what's on the webpage.  I've never thought about trying this with JAWS at all, probably because most of my clients don't use a mouse and that takes the option, literally and metaphorically, off the table unless I were to introduce mouse use.

There is so much potential there as far as selective use of mouse/finger pointer and getting a much better idea of what may or may not be present than using (and I hasten to add, I teach and use them) the techniques that Joshua Hori mentioned.  I'd love to combine quick pointer scanning with the more conventional techniques once a user determines that there's something there that's worth exploring in more depth and more methodically.

Brian

 


Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Ted & Bill,

        Thanks for the info on INSERT+CTRL+NUM PAD MINUS for tethering the JAWS cursor to the PC Cursor.  I will be curious if that tethering is bi-directional in that when the person traversing the webpage is doing so via the usual way, the JAWS cursor, the actual PC Cursor/Caret moves visually along with it.

        One of the things that's most difficult for me is when JAWS is off the physical webpage that I can see and I have no context for where it is and what it's "talking about."  This is all the more so on complicated webpages where I have no familiarity at all and am trying to assist the client based on what I can see that might clue us both in to what's what.

Brian


Re: what key stroke for clickable

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

It’s Ctrl-minus-JAWS key.  It will speak the phrase “jaws will follow PC,” or “JAWS will not follow PC.”  I’m sure that’s in the basic documentation and training material, but it’s so basic I haven’t looked it up in I couldn’t say when.  You can check me by going into Key help mode, JAWS-keypad 1..  u won’t want it often, but it can be really handy at times.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 9:20 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Ted,

            Are there specific commands for "JAWS will Follow PC" and, I hope, it's converse, "PC will Follow JAWS"?

            I have never seen these documented, and have even asked Freedom Scientific if there were some way to make the PC cursor follow, on the real page, what the JAWS cursor is visiting in its virtual page.  I never got a functional answer.  I'd really love to be able to make the PC cursor on the real page map directly to the JAWS virtual cursor during tutoring sessions.

Brian


Re: Touch cursor

Shan Noyes
 

This is a test message

Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Debbie Kessler <jessesgirl@...> wrote:

I would think so too.

DjAndChaz 
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2016, at 8:02 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Judith,

         What follows is a recommendation based on my reading of documentation.  I've not had any occasion to try it in practice.

         I am presuming you're under Win8.1 or Win10 and on a touch screen machine.  The JAWS documentation notes that the Touch Cursor will be enabled by default in a number of instances, and I'd imagine your Metro screen or desktop on a touch device is one of those instances.  They also mention that if you want the Touch Cursor to be activated by default in other specific applications you have to hit INSERT+V while you have focus on the application where you want the Touch Cursor on by default and select "Automatic Activation" under the Touch Cursor Options Group.  This implies to me that you can also do the opposite, when you have focus on an application (including, I'd think, the OS itself) where JAWS has "Automatic Activation" on by default you should be able to go in to your settings and turn that option off.  Then JAWS shouldn't turn on the Touch Cursor in that context in the first place.  That way you'd boot up to the normal PC cursor, not the Touch Cursor.

          Let me know if this works.

Brian


Re: Touch cursor

Debbie Kessler
 

I would think so too.

DjAndChaz 
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2016, at 8:02 AM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

Judith,

         What follows is a recommendation based on my reading of documentation.  I've not had any occasion to try it in practice.

         I am presuming you're under Win8.1 or Win10 and on a touch screen machine.  The JAWS documentation notes that the Touch Cursor will be enabled by default in a number of instances, and I'd imagine your Metro screen or desktop on a touch device is one of those instances.  They also mention that if you want the Touch Cursor to be activated by default in other specific applications you have to hit INSERT+V while you have focus on the application where you want the Touch Cursor on by default and select "Automatic Activation" under the Touch Cursor Options Group.  This implies to me that you can also do the opposite, when you have focus on an application (including, I'd think, the OS itself) where JAWS has "Automatic Activation" on by default you should be able to go in to your settings and turn that option off.  Then JAWS shouldn't turn on the Touch Cursor in that context in the first place.  That way you'd boot up to the normal PC cursor, not the Touch Cursor.

          Let me know if this works.

Brian


Re: Question about an all in one tablet for JAWS

Poppa Bear <heavens4real@...>
 

In some peoples cases their rehab programs won’t go for it if the client has been trained on Jaws and already has a Jaws Dongle license. Also, using many of the PC style tablets can translate over to a desktop type of set up with a keyboard without extra training. It isn’t such a smooth transition to an I pad if you haven’t used one for more than basic socializing and entertainment IMO. I myself do like the I pads and the streamlined all in one capabilities integrated within voice over, but I was just throwing the other side of the coin out there.

 

From: Joshua Hori [mailto:jhori@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 11:29 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Question about an all in one tablet for JAWS

 

Why not go with an iPad with data plan? Office365, OEM (HIPAA compliant emails), slack accessibility, WiFi keyboard + option to sync with braillenote. OneDrive for syncing documents across mobile devices and business computers. You can even tie a business line into the device for phone capabilities and the company can sync it to their systems using a Mobile Device Manager, such as meraki.com, ensuring security they need. Google Drive and Dropbox could be added to extend storage capabilities.

 

Plus I'm sure they'll find more accessible culinary books on the iPad than they will for JAWS on Windows 10.

 

iPads have accessible book keeping apps available and is more intuitive than the PC counterparts.

 

Joshua


Sent from my iPhone


On Apr 3, 2016, at 2:56 AM, Poppa Bear <heavens4real@...> wrote:

Hello Brian he is connected with a 6 month paid on the job training program that ranges from learning Office Skills, some culinary arts as well as some basic excel book keeping. It is a nonprofit organization.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2016 10:15 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Question about an all in one tablet for JAWS

 

Poppa Bear,

         Do you know anything about where he's working?  I ask simply because it is not unusual for businesses to forbid any connection of "outside equipment" to their networks, not even as a reasonable accommodation.  Those that take that stance will often spend thousands of dollars to create the environment required but such that it's under their control entirely.  This is not directly relevant to your overarching question but is something that does need to be considered.

          ZoomText at 60 times is, without question, not practical for use in the workplace.  Given my own experience tutoring clients with ZoomText I'd be strongly encouraging them to look at screen reader solutions or else going to something like a big screen TV as their monitor of choice.  Pan and scan is difficult and disorienting at scales far below 60 times and would be a nightmare in a workplace.  Better to "scale up" the monitor such that lower magnification, or no magnification, might be needed.  I will say at the outset that I've had very little success with clients using ZoomText at high magnification levels.  It makes getting from place to place on the screen exceedingly tedious and it's very difficult to have any idea of where you are in the context of the entirety of a document, desktop, etc.

           As far as the shopping goes, my concern is almost entirely about comfort with the keyboard and/or mouse/mouse pad for a given user.  When keyboard access is your primary interaction method with a computer you really have to like the way the keyboard is laid out (e.g, key spacing and rake), the nature of the touch pressure for the keys, etc.  If this guy already has computer experience of any kind these sort of preferences are already formed, but there's no way to easily express them or categorize them - it's an "I know it when I feel it" thing.  If he doesn't have experience with a given hardware format (e.g., laptop, all-in-one,etc.) that's all the more reason to encourage him to do some basic exploration of what's out there as it will allow him to eliminate a lot of options due to reasons that have nothing to do with what he can or cannot see.  I wish I could convince more people that doing a "test drive" on a computer is as essential in making a buying choice for one as it is for an automobile.  There are just too many things that can only be revealed by actual interaction with the device itself.

           There's also the question:  "Is his vision stable?"  My approach with individuals whose visual profile is likely to remain unchanged is quite different than it is with individuals who are undergoing progressive loss that is unlikely to be halted.  I've got a client now who was once fully sighted, was losing his vision when we started working together and strongly preferred ZoomText because he could still see using it, but whose prognosis was for continued vision loss.  I told him early on that while I wanted him to know ZoomText I really wanted to spend some time while he could still see getting down the basics of a screen reader, because that was eventually going to be his one and only access method that would be practical.  He still uses magnification for books and the like, and very occasionally for a specific item on the computer, but he's slowly transitioned to being primarily a JAWS user precisely because ZoomText became impractical on a routine basis as his residual vision deteriorated.

Brian


Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Londa,

        Your perspectives have been consistently helpful and you always take the time to explain how you arrived at them, which is invaluable.

        It is only very recently that I've come to believe that mouse use could be potentially invaluable, even for someone who is totally blind, in very specific ways.  The potential for "finger pointer" use on a touch screen has even more potential.

        If you happen to be a dual or triple screen reader user, and you have a touch screen, fire up NVDA and do an orderly side-to-side, top-to-bottom (or vice versa) traversal of an unknown web page with your finger.  Then report back on whether you found doing so helpful in terms of getting a quick snapshot of what's there and, possibly, activating controls you land on with your finger.  The touch screen interface, used with screen readers that exploit the actual touch and glide tracking of objects, makes computers far more like smartphones in terms of how you can navigate a screen.  That's a big deal, as far as I'm concerned, because I've seen how good many of my clients are with very sophisticated use of their smartphones without ever being able to see a thing they're doing.  The direct mapping created by touching an area with active controls, but that has physical constraints you can feel, and that directly corresponds to where your finger is could be a game changer.

Brian


Re: Touch cursor

Londa Peterson
 

 The touch cursor should only be active by default in Windows Store apps. This should never happen in Word or other desktop apps. A call to Freedom's tech support is probably in order because something isn't working as it should.  

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 11:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Touch cursor

 

Judith,

         What follows is a recommendation based on my reading of documentation.  I've not had any occasion to try it in practice.

         I am presuming you're under Win8.1 or Win10 and on a touch screen machine.  The JAWS documentation notes that the Touch Cursor will be enabled by default in a number of instances, and I'd imagine your Metro screen or desktop on a touch device is one of those instances.  They also mention that if you want the Touch Cursor to be activated by default in other specific applications you have to hit INSERT+V while you have focus on the application where you want the Touch Cursor on by default and select "Automatic Activation" under the Touch Cursor Options Group.  This implies to me that you can also do the opposite, when you have focus on an application (including, I'd think, the OS itself) where JAWS has "Automatic Activation" on by default you should be able to go in to your settings and turn that option off.  Then JAWS shouldn't turn on the Touch Cursor in that context in the first place.  That way you'd boot up to the normal PC cursor, not the Touch Cursor.

          Let me know if this works.

Brian


Re: what key stroke for clickable

Londa Peterson
 

 I've never tried reading large chunks of text that way. I typically use this method when JAWS won't read any other way. I'm also finding that smart navigation helps on many pages because it reads large bars of links all at once. I teach people to avoid that information blackout by reading a webpage in its entirety and notice how it's structured. For example, are there headings, tables or other elements that they could navigate by? Using the various lists is also a good idea especially if you know what you're looking for. If you don't, though, I find that using those lists just pulls things out of context for me. I want to see the whole page. Letting JAWS read it to me is the only way that I can avoid missing something. I know that I often don't have a true picture of the page, but I get one that works for me. I find that it's better to take my time on a new site rather than try to rush and miss something. Once I know what's there, then I can focus on efficiency. I use the touch screen if someone tries to tell me where something is. Then I can locate it and see what it is. Then I can use my JAWS techniques to get there the next time. I think at least some of that information blackout can be avoided by taking some extra time initially. By the way, I never use the mouse. I find it completely useless. I don't feel like it really gives me a picture of the screen at all. Maybe that's because I do have a small amount of spatial challenge though. I hope this perspective of a person who has been totally blind since birth helps.   

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 10:51 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Londa Peterson offered, "Get a touch screen. The best way to know what a page really looks like on the screen is to be able to explore the screen with your finger. There are times when knowing what the screen actually looks like can be very helpful.

First, a big "Amen!" to that last observation, whether one has a touch screen or not.  Another regular in these parts has used the term "information blackout" to describe what occurs very often for blind screen-reader users.  Another private correspondent said to me, "You see a web page as a whole, a gestalt.  I, on the other hand, have to read line by line if I want to see the entire page, and I have to build the gestalt in my mind.  Sometimes that is easy, sometimes, it's nigh onto impossible!"  My personal observation after my time doing what I'm doing is that the "well-nigh impossible" situation applies far more often than having any easy and coherent way with a screen reader to get a sense of the gestalt of any given web page that is anything beyond extremely simple.  It takes for-freakin'-ever to come close to knowing "all about what's there" by going through enough material item by item.  You generally never get through it all, and there are plenty of instances where some little gem is at the end of the list of links, headers, etc., and reaching it never occurs.

I have never dealt with JAWS on a touch screen machine simply because none of my clients using JAWS has a touch screen machine.  If you glide over the touch screen with your finger is JAWS announcing what it sees beneath your finger?  Does it begin to read text if you land on a chunk of text, such as on a newspaper's webpage?

If these behaviors occur either with finger gliding on a touch screen or mouse/mousepad gliding in a non-touch screen environment this is something that I'd like to begin teaching my students to exploit as a "quick and dirty" way to get a sense of what's on the webpage.  I've never thought about trying this with JAWS at all, probably because most of my clients don't use a mouse and that takes the option, literally and metaphorically, off the table unless I were to introduce mouse use.

There is so much potential there as far as selective use of mouse/finger pointer and getting a much better idea of what may or may not be present than using (and I hasten to add, I teach and use them) the techniques that Joshua Hori mentioned.  I'd love to combine quick pointer scanning with the more conventional techniques once a user determines that there's something there that's worth exploring in more depth and more methodically.

Brian

 


Re: Touch cursor

judith bron
 

Hi Brian and all, I just tried what you suggested and there is no option in the touch cursor menu.  This happened when I downloaded an FS update to Jaws 16.  I have windows 7  and can’t figure out what to do to get back to normal.  I know that the touch cursor is necessary for windows 8  but I’m not there yet.  Thanks for your help, Judith

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 11:02 AM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: Touch cursor

 

Judith,

         What follows is a recommendation based on my reading of documentation.  I've not had any occasion to try it in practice.

         I am presuming you're under Win8.1 or Win10 and on a touch screen machine.  The JAWS documentation notes that the Touch Cursor will be enabled by default in a number of instances, and I'd imagine your Metro screen or desktop on a touch device is one of those instances.  They also mention that if you want the Touch Cursor to be activated by default in other specific applications you have to hit INSERT+V while you have focus on the application where you want the Touch Cursor on by default and select "Automatic Activation" under the Touch Cursor Options Group.  This implies to me that you can also do the opposite, when you have focus on an application (including, I'd think, the OS itself) where JAWS has "Automatic Activation" on by default you should be able to go in to your settings and turn that option off.  Then JAWS shouldn't turn on the Touch Cursor in that context in the first place.  That way you'd boot up to the normal PC cursor, not the Touch Cursor.

          Let me know if this works.

Brian


Re: Touch cursor

 

Judith,

         What follows is a recommendation based on my reading of documentation.  I've not had any occasion to try it in practice.

         I am presuming you're under Win8.1 or Win10 and on a touch screen machine.  The JAWS documentation notes that the Touch Cursor will be enabled by default in a number of instances, and I'd imagine your Metro screen or desktop on a touch device is one of those instances.  They also mention that if you want the Touch Cursor to be activated by default in other specific applications you have to hit INSERT+V while you have focus on the application where you want the Touch Cursor on by default and select "Automatic Activation" under the Touch Cursor Options Group.  This implies to me that you can also do the opposite, when you have focus on an application (including, I'd think, the OS itself) where JAWS has "Automatic Activation" on by default you should be able to go in to your settings and turn that option off.  Then JAWS shouldn't turn on the Touch Cursor in that context in the first place.  That way you'd boot up to the normal PC cursor, not the Touch Cursor.

          Let me know if this works.

Brian


Re: Touch cursor

Debbie Kessler
 

Ctrl+insert +enter I think. But, if this doesn't work, it would probably b a toggle setting. Let me know if this works. 

DjAndChaz 
Sent from my iPhone

On Apr 4, 2016, at 6:56 AM, judith bron <jbron@...> wrote:

We went through this awhile ago, but its driving me insane!  No matter what I open, word, internet or outlook the touch cursor is there to greet me.  I hit the plus sign twice, or more, to get the PC cursor but this is crazy.  There has to be  a keystroke or command somewhere that will give me back a plain old PC cursor after my computer is booted up.  Any advice?  Judith  


Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Londa Peterson offered, "Get a touch screen. The best way to know what a page really looks like on the screen is to be able to explore the screen with your finger. There are times when knowing what the screen actually looks like can be very helpful.

First, a big "Amen!" to that last observation, whether one has a touch screen or not.  Another regular in these parts has used the term "information blackout" to describe what occurs very often for blind screen-reader users.  Another private correspondent said to me, "You see a web page as a whole, a gestalt.  I, on the other hand, have to read line by line if I want to see the entire page, and I have to build the gestalt in my mind.  Sometimes that is easy, sometimes, it's nigh onto impossible!"  My personal observation after my time doing what I'm doing is that the "well-nigh impossible" situation applies far more often than having any easy and coherent way with a screen reader to get a sense of the gestalt of any given web page that is anything beyond extremely simple.  It takes for-freakin'-ever to come close to knowing "all about what's there" by going through enough material item by item.  You generally never get through it all, and there are plenty of instances where some little gem is at the end of the list of links, headers, etc., and reaching it never occurs.

I have never dealt with JAWS on a touch screen machine simply because none of my clients using JAWS has a touch screen machine.  If you glide over the touch screen with your finger is JAWS announcing what it sees beneath your finger?  Does it begin to read text if you land on a chunk of text, such as on a newspaper's webpage?

If these behaviors occur either with finger gliding on a touch screen or mouse/mousepad gliding in a non-touch screen environment this is something that I'd like to begin teaching my students to exploit as a "quick and dirty" way to get a sense of what's on the webpage.  I've never thought about trying this with JAWS at all, probably because most of my clients don't use a mouse and that takes the option, literally and metaphorically, off the table unless I were to introduce mouse use.

There is so much potential there as far as selective use of mouse/finger pointer and getting a much better idea of what may or may not be present than using (and I hasten to add, I teach and use them) the techniques that Joshua Hori mentioned.  I'd love to combine quick pointer scanning with the more conventional techniques once a user determines that there's something there that's worth exploring in more depth and more methodically.

Brian



Re: what key stroke for clickable

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 


Hi, Joseph. On the desktop keyboard layout for JAWS,
the toggle is:
CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS
Tether JAWS to PC CTRL+INSERT+NUM PAD MINUS
 Control plus Insert plus NumPad Minus.
 
The first time you press this key combination, JAWS will say:
 
""The JAWS Cursor will follow the PC Cursor".
 
The second time you press the same key combination, JAWS will say:
 
" The JAWS Cursor will not follow the PC Cursor".
 
There doesn't seem to be a corresponding Laptop Keystroke, because if you use Capslock plus Left Bracket, it continues to say,
 
"Root JAWS to PC".
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 6:50 AM
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

never heard of this "teathering" how do you toggle it:)
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Monday, April 04, 2016 7:01 AM
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

Another thing that works is to simply tether the two cursors (”JAWS will Follow PC”) short-term.  That way, when you get to where you want to click, the mouse

 

cursor should be where you need it.  Tethering and untethering can be done quickly.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Sunday, April 03, 2016 1:24 PM
To: main@jfw.groups.io
Subject: Re: what key stroke for clickable

 

Mark,

          I presume you mean to actually cause a click to be done on a clickable object.  What follows presumes a desktop keyboard layout, even if you're using a laptop where you have a full sized keyboard and desktop layout is in use.  See the JAWS Keystrokes documentation for laptop equivalents.

          I always teach clients to route the PC cursor to the JAWS cursor, INSERT+NUM PAD PLUS, followed by the JAWS keystroke for left mouse button, NUM PAD SLASH.  It's been a while since I last did this.  If you have a specific page you'd like me to check I can do a test using the same commands in NVDA, since I don't have JAWS on my own machine.

Brian



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