Date   

Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Adrian Spratt
 

Brian,

 

You seem intent on characterizing anyone who disagrees with you as claiming the victim card. You write:

 

What I do have a problem with is certain people acting like it's OK to hold the false belief that Captchas were a targeted attack on accessibility and the blind.  They weren't, they just had that as a very nasty side effect.  The companies had a choice to make based upon the technology available at the time, and if it fixed their major issue, and it did, while screwing over a tiny fraction of their customer base, which it did, any sane person knows how the math goes with that one and that it's the math, and nothing else, that was the primary consideration.  It wasn't about you, and treating it as though it was isn't doing anyone any favors.  Knowing the difference between being attacked, and being collateral damage, gives one perspective.

 

My attitude has to do with addressing reality and stepping outside one's own bubble, which some seem incapable of doing.

 

Back to me. Who on this list claimed the CAPTCHA solution was targeted at blind people? I don’t recall reading any such post. The question isn’t about targeting. It does have more to do with the small market issue that Soronel brings up. this is a kind of economic democracy argument that makes undeniable practical sense. However, the U.S. Constitution recognized the need to balance the interests of minorities even in a country where the majority rules. This was the premise of the civil rights campaigns of the fifties all the way to the gay rights transformation we’ve witnessed in this generation.

 

Many advocates are working from this foundation to ensure equal access for disabled people. Equal access includes simultaneous access as non-disabled people when it comes to technology.

 

I don’t agree with Soronel, but I respect the integrity of his argument. You set up the straw man of disabled people who like being victims. Not good.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:20 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:54 pm, Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@...> wrote:

They solved an
actual problem and sad to say the slice of potential customers unable
to deal with them is small enough that I can well see companies having
better things to focus on. Companies don't _owe_ us anything.

And even if the companies do "owe you something," Captchas, as I already pointed out, at length, came into existence to address a pressing and immediate problem that was getting worse and worse and worse.  It was far more important to stop it, as dead as possible, and quickly, than anything else.

I have no problem with people complaining about Captchas, advocating for changes, etc.  That's been done and those issues have been identified and registered.  The creation of the reCaptcha is a direct result.

What I do have a problem with is certain people acting like it's OK to hold the false belief that Captchas were a targeted attack on accessibility and the blind.  They weren't, they just had that as a very nasty side effect.  The companies had a choice to make based upon the technology available at the time, and if it fixed their major issue, and it did, while screwing over a tiny fraction of their customer base, which it did, any sane person knows how the math goes with that one and that it's the math, and nothing else, that was the primary consideration.  It wasn't about you, and treating it as though it was isn't doing anyone any favors.  Knowing the difference between being attacked, and being collateral damage, gives one perspective.

My attitude has to do with addressing reality and stepping outside one's own bubble, which some seem incapable of doing.


Re: thunderbird, not spell checking in original email

Mario
 

just to point it out, the quick settings only affect the announcement of elements in the program being used. I'm looking for a setting in TB that's similar to when I used Outlook Express in the XP days.
.

On 2/5/2016 10:19 AM, Adrian Spratt wrote:
Mario, have you checked the JAWS quick settings menu? I was surprised to find spell-check options there, but at least one exists in Outlook. (I know you're using Thunderbird.) JAWS key+v for quick settings, then type "spell" in the edit field that comes up right away, then arrow down through the choices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:11 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: thunderbird, not spell checking in original email

when I send an email in TB, is there a setting not to spell check the
original post(s)?
I'm not finding anything. maybe it's not where it logically would be in
compose settings?


On 2/3/2016 4:55 PM, Gudrun Brunot wrote:
How about Kurzweil: write your signature top left of a blank page and scan it, ("create signature" under scanning). Kurzweil has a "create signature" option. Then, try opening your form with Kurzweil. Then, since you have an open file, the edit menu will be visible and accessed with alt-e. With edit menu open, I to insert signature.

Hope it works.

Good luck.

Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Kimsan [mailto:kimsansong@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 10:56 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: signatures in pdf form

Oh my goodness!

I had my college email me a pdf form yesterday, and I ran into the same exact issue as yourself. I was able to fill out everything, except the signature part.

So what was my solution? Lol, I just printed it out, signed it, then faxed it back to them.
However, I will be following this thread, as I would love to know what to do next time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 12:46 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: signatures in pdf form

I have a pdf form that needs to be filled in, including signatures. I am using acrobat reader dc and I am able to fillin name, address, city, state, zip, etc, but what about signatures? how can this be done?

I haven't got any idea, except to have my signature digitally scanned or photoed, cropped, and inserted, but have no idea as to successfully do this. help!
















Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 


Brian wrote:
and that it's the math, and nothing else, that was the primary consideration.  
 
Speaking of captchas and math, Brian, I have seen a type of captcha which is much easier to deal with for blind screen reader users.
 
The captcha showed a math problem such as
 
4 + 2 =
 
and the user was supposed to do the math, and input the result. If the result was true, the captcha was solved.
 
This shows that captchas can still be used without causing inaccessibility problems for any user.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 7:20 AM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:54 pm, Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@...> wrote:
They solved an
actual problem and sad to say the slice of potential customers unable
to deal with them is small enough that I can well see companies having
better things to focus on. Companies don't _owe_ us anything.

And even if the companies do "owe you something," Captchas, as I already pointed out, at length, came into existence to address a pressing and immediate problem that was getting worse and worse and worse.  It was far more important to stop it, as dead as possible, and quickly, than anything else.

I have no problem with people complaining about Captchas, advocating for changes, etc.  That's been done and those issues have been identified and registered.  The creation of the reCaptcha is a direct result.

What I do have a problem with is certain people acting like it's OK to hold the false belief that Captchas were a targeted attack on accessibility and the blind.  They weren't, they just had that as a very nasty side effect.  The companies had a choice to make based upon the technology available at the time, and if it fixed their major issue, and it did, while screwing over a tiny fraction of their customer base, which it did, any sane person knows how the math goes with that one and that it's the math, and nothing else, that was the primary consideration.  It wasn't about you, and treating it as though it was isn't doing anyone any favors.  Knowing the difference between being attacked, and being collateral damage, gives one perspective.

My attitude has to do with addressing reality and stepping outside one's own bubble, which some seem incapable of doing.



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 12983 (20160205) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Right-left click has been common terminology among screen reader users since we started using Windows in the 1990‘s, many of us just do it differently. I guess what we once called sight savers may do it with a mouse, but most do it with whatever mouse keys the software designer designated.  I understand some notebooks even have mouse keys, which ought to make us feel right at home.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 10:35 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Hello All,

          I have recently been e-mailing back and forth with several members here off-forum about topics and issues that go beyond the scope of discussion here.  In the course of a specific exchange, and from the previous occurrence here of someone telling me, "that's a sighted answer," I composed the following in an e-mail, which I'll share here verbatim:

--------------------------------

            I actually try to avoid purely visual descriptions to the extent I can.  You may find the following amusing, and it took me a long time to get comfortable asking it, but the first question I ask any of my clients when we start tutoring is, "How blind are you?"  I often have very sketchy information about what residual vision, if any, they have and it's critical to know that (and whether it will remain) as far as how to approach certain things.  I then follow up with, "Has your vision always been this way or could you see previously?"  Both of these answers factor in to whether I ever mention specific colors, for instance, because the actuality, as opposed to the abstract concept, of color is meaningless to those who've never had the sensory experience of color.  Everyone, though, has to have the concepts of left, right, up, down in both the vertical and horizontal planes, so I don't hesitate to say something like "at the lower right" because I know that that translates in a very specific way once you have any orientation at all to "how you get where" in relation to your own computer screen.  If this is a bad idea, for reasons I can't fathom as a sighted person, I welcome suggestions as to what is more appropriate and efficient for communicating location information for access.  Mind you, I do use specifics like "in the main menu bar," "in the insert ribbon," "4th button over by tabbing," etc..

 

            I've never understood "the furor" that some people get into over the use of common computer actions like click, right click, triple-finger double-tap, etc.  I mean, I realize that a screen reader user does not literally click or right click, but they had ought to know that click translates to select (most of the time), double click translates to activate, there exists a "right click" function to allow you to bring up context menus (which are often a godsend), etc.  This is a situation where I actually feel it's incumbent on the student to ask if they do not understand what a specific "sighted" reference which is what they'll always be hearing from someone other than a fellow screen reader user translates to in "screen-readerese."  You're never going to get a sighted assistant telling you to "press spacebar to select/activate" something, they'll tell you either to select it or to click on it.  If you go to training classes for non-screen reader software you absolutely have to know and understand how common computing control jargon "translates" for you.  Mind you, if I've got an absolute beginner I teach the translation at the outset but what I don't do is use screen readerese unless it's essential.  I think that limits independence rather than building it.

--------------------------------

Just as I said yesterday that it is members of the cohort here, not I, who are best able to determine if a given document is accessible via JAWS.  The cohort here is also better able to instruct me in where my assumptions, presumptions, techniques may either be completely wrong or in need of some improvement.

The only thing I will ask is that if something in the above is considered really offensive, please don't excoriate me about that, but make me aware that it is offensive and why.  I am honestly trying to get better at what I do both as a tutor and as a sighted person working with people with visual impairments.  I know that my frame of reference is different than yours, or at least could be, and that it may be in need of adjustment.  The only way I can make that adjustment is to put my thoughts out there and ask for help.

I'll close with a quotation from Carlin Romano that I think has direct parallels here, "When intellectuals take their ideas to the mass market, they are not just doing a good deed for the mass market.  They are doing a good thing for themselves.  The mass marketplace of ideas proves to be a better critic of big assumptions in any field than is the specialized discipline, or one's peers."

Brian


Re: JAWS, NVDA, & Window Eyes Parallels

 

On Fri, Feb 5, 2016 at 07:10 am, Bill White <billwhite92701@...> wrote:
discuss how one screen reader or another performs a certain task, and its benefits, I believe this would be helpful to all screen readers.

 Which is the only thing I hope will result.  As a tech geek I long ago tired of the flame wars that go with, for example, Apple vs. Microsoft, etc.

Since I know that many of my clients use multiple screen readers due to one being much better for select tasks than the others, I think that knowing about those situations, and knowing how to accomplish task X is screen reader Y, when screen reader Z is your favorite but Y is better for task X, can be really helpful.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

judith bron
 

Soronel, Ever think of a career in the diplomatic corp.?  Your reasoning is very rational.  I hate captias because I have to ask for help but your reasoning puts them in perspective.  Thanks, JB

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:20 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:54 pm, Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@...> wrote:

They solved an
actual problem and sad to say the slice of potential customers unable
to deal with them is small enough that I can well see companies having
better things to focus on. Companies don't _owe_ us anything.

And even if the companies do "owe you something," Captchas, as I already pointed out, at length, came into existence to address a pressing and immediate problem that was getting worse and worse and worse.  It was far more important to stop it, as dead as possible, and quickly, than anything else.

I have no problem with people complaining about Captchas, advocating for changes, etc.  That's been done and those issues have been identified and registered.  The creation of the reCaptcha is a direct result.

What I do have a problem with is certain people acting like it's OK to hold the false belief that Captchas were a targeted attack on accessibility and the blind.  They weren't, they just had that as a very nasty side effect.  The companies had a choice to make based upon the technology available at the time, and if it fixed their major issue, and it did, while screwing over a tiny fraction of their customer base, which it did, any sane person knows how the math goes with that one and that it's the math, and nothing else, that was the primary consideration.  It wasn't about you, and treating it as though it was isn't doing anyone any favors.  Knowing the difference between being attacked, and being collateral damage, gives one perspective.

My attitude has to do with addressing reality and stepping outside one's own bubble, which some seem incapable of doing.


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 10:54 pm, Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@...> wrote:
They solved an
actual problem and sad to say the slice of potential customers unable
to deal with them is small enough that I can well see companies having
better things to focus on. Companies don't _owe_ us anything.

And even if the companies do "owe you something," Captchas, as I already pointed out, at length, came into existence to address a pressing and immediate problem that was getting worse and worse and worse.  It was far more important to stop it, as dead as possible, and quickly, than anything else.

I have no problem with people complaining about Captchas, advocating for changes, etc.  That's been done and those issues have been identified and registered.  The creation of the reCaptcha is a direct result.

What I do have a problem with is certain people acting like it's OK to hold the false belief that Captchas were a targeted attack on accessibility and the blind.  They weren't, they just had that as a very nasty side effect.  The companies had a choice to make based upon the technology available at the time, and if it fixed their major issue, and it did, while screwing over a tiny fraction of their customer base, which it did, any sane person knows how the math goes with that one and that it's the math, and nothing else, that was the primary consideration.  It wasn't about you, and treating it as though it was isn't doing anyone any favors.  Knowing the difference between being attacked, and being collateral damage, gives one perspective.

My attitude has to do with addressing reality and stepping outside one's own bubble, which some seem incapable of doing.


Re: thunderbird, not spell checking in original email

Adrian Spratt
 

Mario, have you checked the JAWS quick settings menu? I was surprised to find spell-check options there, but at least one exists in Outlook. (I know you're using Thunderbird.) JAWS key+v for quick settings, then type "spell" in the edit field that comes up right away, then arrow down through the choices.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 10:11 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: thunderbird, not spell checking in original email

when I send an email in TB, is there a setting not to spell check the
original post(s)?
I'm not finding anything. maybe it's not where it logically would be in
compose settings?


On 2/3/2016 4:55 PM, Gudrun Brunot wrote:
How about Kurzweil: write your signature top left of a blank page and scan it, ("create signature" under scanning). Kurzweil has a "create signature" option. Then, try opening your form with Kurzweil. Then, since you have an open file, the edit menu will be visible and accessed with alt-e. With edit menu open, I to insert signature.

Hope it works.

Good luck.

Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Kimsan [mailto:kimsansong@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 10:56 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: signatures in pdf form

Oh my goodness!

I had my college email me a pdf form yesterday, and I ran into the same exact issue as yourself. I was able to fill out everything, except the signature part.

So what was my solution? Lol, I just printed it out, signed it, then faxed it back to them.
However, I will be following this thread, as I would love to know what to do next time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 12:46 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: signatures in pdf form

I have a pdf form that needs to be filled in, including signatures. I am using acrobat reader dc and I am able to fillin name, address, city, state, zip, etc, but what about signatures? how can this be done?

I haven't got any idea, except to have my signature digitally scanned or photoed, cropped, and inserted, but have no idea as to successfully do this. help!













Re: thunderbird, not spell checking in original email

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 

Hi, Mario. I don't know if this will be helpful for you, but here's what Google says about configuring Thunderbird with regard to spell check.

Enable or disable spell check while writing messages

Menu location: Thunderbird | PreferencesTools | OptionsEdit | Preferences | Composition | Spelling
Bill White billwhite92701@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mario" <mrb620@...>
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 7:11 AM
Subject: thunderbird, not spell checking in original email


when I send an email in TB, is there a setting not to spell check the original post(s)?
I'm not finding anything. maybe it's not where it logically would be in compose settings?


On 2/3/2016 4:55 PM, Gudrun Brunot wrote:
How about Kurzweil: write your signature top left of a blank page and scan it, ("create signature" under scanning). Kurzweil has a "create signature" option. Then, try opening your form with Kurzweil. Then, since you have an open file, the edit menu will be visible and accessed with alt-e. With edit menu open, I to insert signature.

Hope it works.

Good luck.

Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Kimsan [mailto:kimsansong@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 10:56 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: signatures in pdf form

Oh my goodness!

I had my college email me a pdf form yesterday, and I ran into the same exact issue as yourself. I was able to fill out everything, except the signature part.

So what was my solution? Lol, I just printed it out, signed it, then faxed it back to them.
However, I will be following this thread, as I would love to know what to do next time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 12:46 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: signatures in pdf form

I have a pdf form that needs to be filled in, including signatures. I am using acrobat reader dc and I am able to fillin name, address, city, state, zip, etc, but what about signatures? how can this be done?

I haven't got any idea, except to have my signature digitally scanned or photoed, cropped, and inserted, but have no idea as to successfully do this. help!















__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 12983 (20160205) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 12983 (20160205) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Angel
 


Thank you for this resource.  I was looking for her in the wrong places. 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 7:53 AM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Hi,
I believe she’s still found at
Robin
 
 
From: Angel
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 6:39 AM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity
 
Reading this thread caused me to look up Kathy Anne Murtha's courses on the internet.  I was unable to find them.  Has she discontinued teaching on the internet?  She also sold a course for access technology trainers.  Who learned to use their keyboards alone.  As she was totally blind.  I still have in my archives her windows courses for XP.  I learned quite a lot from them.  Perhaps, if you were to create something similar to her courses for your students they might prove as helpful as were her courses for us.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:18 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity
 
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
I don't mind hearing sighted jargon as long as it is translated into something I can understand on the keyboard.

This actually brings up an interesting sub-question.  Other than when actually instructing on what keystrokes are necessary to accomplish a given action, and during practice to master that action, when I also mention the action name and/or jargon that goes with it, I do not generally ever mention the keystrokes in the future.  I presume that once someone has mastered "select" in the context of a file or files or in the context of a word through a text block that I not only don't, but shouldn't, be mentioning the keystrokes again.  I simply say "select" and the appropriate whatever comes after for the context in question.  I presume that the necessary nuts-and-bolts are already understood and should be used as the basis for building upon more complex tasks.

Is there any reason to keep reiterating the keystrokes once a given action appears to have been mastered rather than just using the action name itself?

Brian


thunderbird, not spell checking in original email

Mario
 

when I send an email in TB, is there a setting not to spell check the original post(s)?
I'm not finding anything. maybe it's not where it logically would be in compose settings?

On 2/3/2016 4:55 PM, Gudrun Brunot wrote:
How about Kurzweil: write your signature top left of a blank page and scan it, ("create signature" under scanning). Kurzweil has a "create signature" option. Then, try opening your form with Kurzweil. Then, since you have an open file, the edit menu will be visible and accessed with alt-e. With edit menu open, I to insert signature.

Hope it works.

Good luck.

Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Kimsan [mailto:kimsansong@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 02, 2016 10:56 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: signatures in pdf form

Oh my goodness!

I had my college email me a pdf form yesterday, and I ran into the same exact issue as yourself. I was able to fill out everything, except the signature part.

So what was my solution? Lol, I just printed it out, signed it, then faxed it back to them.
However, I will be following this thread, as I would love to know what to do next time.
-----Original Message-----
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@...]
Sent: Tuesday, February 2, 2016 12:46 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: signatures in pdf form

I have a pdf form that needs to be filled in, including signatures. I am using acrobat reader dc and I am able to fillin name, address, city, state, zip, etc, but what about signatures? how can this be done?

I haven't got any idea, except to have my signature digitally scanned or photoed, cropped, and inserted, but have no idea as to successfully do this. help!












Re: JAWS, NVDA, & Window Eyes Parallels

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 

One of the reasons that moderators of various screen reader lists discouraged the discussion of other screen readers is that the discussions often disintegrated into flaming wars attacking one screen reader or another. This being said, if we could just discuss how one screen reader or another performs a certain task, and its benefits, I believe this would be helpful to all screen readers. It might even fuel comments to the maker of a screen reader which could make it more useful in the future.
Bill White billwhite92701@...

----- Original Message -----
From: "Gudrun Brunot" <gbrunot@...>
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 8:35 PM
Subject: Re: JAWS, NVDA, & Window Eyes Parallels


I feel it would be detrimental to this list if we couldn't discuss how JAWS differs from, or might be complemented by, another screenreader.



Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 3:44 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: JAWS, NVDA, & Window Eyes Parallels

I know that this is a JAWS forum, and if the consensus is that this sort of discussion is inappropriate here then I'll just drop it.

I have a number of clients who use multiple screen readers, many use two and a significant number have used all three. Since NVDA is free and WindowEyes is available for free (or was) in basic form for MS-Office users both are reasonably common as backup(s).

I am most familiar with JAWS, am getting more familiar with NVDA, and haven't touched Window Eyes yet.

Is it OK to ask a question of the general form, "How do you do something in NVDA or Window Eyes that you do in JAWS by {insert steps here}?" or, "JAWS does {insert behavior here} when you {insert action or keystrokes here}, what's the equivalent in Window Eyes or NVDA?," or vice-versa?

If there are other forums or emailing lists that are more generally targeted to screen reader users rather than JAWS users feel free to point me to them. However, if they're single screen reader focused then the same complication exists (but I can make this query in those venues, too).

Brian









__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 12983 (20160205) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com




__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 12983 (20160205) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Angel
 


I admire people who used the old dos commands in those days.  My 59 year old nephew was one such.  Though he is sighted, he did master those older dos keyboard commands.  I always regretted not learning to use Jaws for Dos.  My rehabilitation counselor was even willing to purchase it for me, and install it on my computer.  I perhaps might have even been trained to use Jaws for Dos.  I suspect, I might have been able to install it on that first Open book machine.  With the windows 3.1 operating system on it.  I am sad I refused the offer.  I might have been able to extricate myself from quandaries I got myself in to then.  Had I been able to boot up the computer using dos. 

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Hi Angel,
I am 49-years-old, and I have been using computers as a blind person since the 80’s. Have a great one.
 
 
From: Angel
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 5:45 AM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity
 
Youth has its advantages, I suppose.  Writing such a post  is one such.  I was also fortunate to be taught computers, by those who were my contemporaries in age.  Many who teach us blind individuals do so with arrogance, and pride.  Which is why they treat us with condescension.       It causes me to fear a return to access technology training.  Considering there might be many who might hold the same attitudes as are those you seem to hold regarding those who hold diferent opinions from those held by you, and the time constraints forced on instructors by funding.    Which is why, one should shop for access technology trainers as carefully as one shops for ones computer.  In order to find the most desirable fit for the students personality. 
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 4:56 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity
 
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 01:27 pm, Angel <angel238@...> wrote:
The belief being instructed by totally blind instructors narrows our options is a prejudiced point of view.

Er, no.  But persist in that belief if it makes you feel better.  The sheer numbers game means it narrows your options, and incredibly I might add.  That's a matter of fact, not opinion.

Brian, who doesn't suffer these sorts of inane assertions gladly


Re: JAWS, NVDA, & Window Eyes Parallels

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Agreed, cross pollination would be a good thing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gudrun Brunot [mailto:gbrunot@...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 11:36 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: JAWS, NVDA, & Window Eyes Parallels

I feel it would be detrimental to this list if we couldn't discuss how JAWS differs from, or might be complemented by, another screenreader.



Gudrun


-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 3:44 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: JAWS, NVDA, & Window Eyes Parallels

I know that this is a JAWS forum, and if the consensus is that this sort of discussion is inappropriate here then I'll just drop it.

I have a number of clients who use multiple screen readers, many use two and a significant number have used all three. Since NVDA is free and WindowEyes is available for free (or was) in basic form for MS-Office users both are reasonably common as backup(s).

I am most familiar with JAWS, am getting more familiar with NVDA, and haven't touched Window Eyes yet.

Is it OK to ask a question of the general form, "How do you do something in NVDA or Window Eyes that you do in JAWS by {insert steps here}?" or, "JAWS does {insert behavior here} when you {insert action or keystrokes here}, what's the equivalent in Window Eyes or NVDA?," or vice-versa?

If there are other forums or emailing lists that are more generally targeted to screen reader users rather than JAWS users feel free to point me to them. However, if they're single screen reader focused then the same complication exists (but I can make this query in those venues, too).

Brian


Re: buying Microsoft Office first time

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

You betcha; I understand Acrobat costs a nice chunk of change, so this is a significant advantage for small businesses, or even government agencies such as ours, requiring a large number of site licenses.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, February 03, 2016 2:16 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: buying Microsoft Office first time

 

Ted,

       Word 2013 having a capability, even if a far more limited than Adobe Acrobat, to actually edit PDF files is a huge advantage if you have that need.  Since I acquired Office 2010 when it was almost new I can't mourn the fact that I "missed" this feature, but were I buying now I completely agree that Office 2013 is the way to go if you have PDF editing needs and are already a skilled Word user.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

judith bron
 

But it does have a lot to do with unifying us as people striving and achieving as handicapped people. Brian's passion to teach and help blind people when he himself does not have this handicap is special. Through this exchange I've also learned some new information on using Jaws. Just read the posts.

-----Original Message-----
From: Maria Campbell [mailto:lucky1inct@...]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 7:25 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Sour grapes.
I know.
This doesn't have anything to do with JAWS.

Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix

On 2/5/2016 6:20 AM, Gerald Levy wrote:

And what does this have to do with JAWS?

Gerald



-----Original Message----- From: Angel
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 7:10 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

I can learn much from your diplomacy. Thank you for teaching me.
----- Original Message ----- From: "Robin Frost" <robini71@...>
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity


Hi,
Oh dear at the risk of getting flamed or other wise in trouble I must
respectfully disagree with that which I read below as it is stated.
While I think that doing so should be part of one's over-all training
in an effort to instruct the blind it might not be the sole criteria
therein.
I'll keep it brief as this is straying from the perhaps defined
parameters of this list. However, I'd like to posit the following:
While I'm always impressed by those sighted individuals with whom I
interact over technological concerns who are willing to walk the
extra mile in my shoes as it were and embrace how to do things
through the use of access technology as we do in order to gain a
fuller understanding I also think it's incumbent upon me and in fact
necessary for me to do so in kind. For we will never fully escape the
fact that we live in a very visually oriented world and the more
adept we become in navigating its terrain and terminology especially
the more technologically advanced it becomes the more advantageous
it'll be to our own productivity, efficiency and well being.
I've known both sighted and blind instructors who were fabulous at
their given vocations and I've known both who had no business doing
that which they got paid to do. I've also known both who've given
freely of their time and talents from whom many have benefited.
So while we're all entitled to our opinions, likes and dislikes I
hope at least speaking for myself that I can both learn from, engage
with and even disagree with opposing points of view without needing
to surrender civility and courtesy. As with many things there's more
than one way to accomplish a given thing and my way might not be that
which would be most useful to anyone else and vice versa. but often
there are helpful terminologies and modalities which even if not
regularly embraced by choice can serve to help one cross boundaries
and communicate with others more effectively.
Happy learning and computing one and all.
Robin


-----Original Message----- From: Ann Byrne
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 5:42 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

If it hasn't been said before, I will:
To learn how to teach JAWS, disconnect the mouse and turn off the
screen.
At 03:53 PM 2/4/2016, you wrote:
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 01:34 pm, Jean Menzies <jemenzies@...>
wrote:
I agree with the poster that a more appropriate use of language here
would be to “select†something, etc. In other words, name the
action/result, rather than referencing it through sighted jargon.

Jean,

At this point I'm convinced that, on both sides [so to
speak - this isn't a battle, it's an exchange of ideas] there is
some talking past each other going on.

I will say this, then I am going to let it go. I often,
probably more often than not, say "select" something when that's
what I want someone to do. I do, occasionally, slip and say "click
on" something when I would generally say "select" in the context of
tutoring. It simply happens. I've been a classroom instructor, too,
and you just find yourself occasionally (and, in that situation,
almost exclusively) using the jargon of the majority, and when it
comes to graphical user interfaces that majority is the sighted and
the jargon relates to what they (I/we) do. I am, however, acutely
aware of the context shift when I'm doing private tutoring and
adjust accordingly.

All I'm saying is that I think it's essential to teach my
students that should I, or anyone else assisting them, for that
matter, say "click on" something that this means "select"
something. I'm not doing anyone any favors by assiduously avoiding
any incursion of the most common computer use terminology because my
student so happens to be using a screen reader. I'm doing them a
disservice if I don't make the connection clear between what they
will hear far more commonly and what that means practically.

Now, from just what I've learned here, I'm actually
shocked at how few people have ever been formally taught about
context menus and their invocation via the right mouse click,
whether one is using an actual mouse or alternate input device to
generate it. These menus are things of beauty, and high efficiency,
because they generally are:
* presented as true menus, which virtually every screen-reader
user on this forum has claimed they like best.
* present only the things that are possible for the object type
you have focus on (though there can be stippled out items if their
actual use is not possible given the confluence of circumstances at
that moment).

And, finally, so that I can have people storming all over
me and decrying my breathing their air, it's about my making my
students maximally functional in the computer world, not the JAWS
world, as far as I'm concerned. That means making sure that they
understand concepts that others do one way that they will do
another, but so that when that concept is named that other way they
absolutely know what that means functionally to them. You can't,
and shouldn't, expect to operate in an assistive technology bubble.

Brian












Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

judith bron
 

You’ve come this far in five years?  My hat goes off to you!  You’re a great role model for the newly blind!

 

From: Jeanette McAllister [mailto:jeanette@...]
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 8:32 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Hello Everyone:

I have been following this thread and trying to decide if I want to chime in and here I go… let’s see how it goes.

 As a blind assistive technology teacher I can honestly say I could see the computer at one time. I lost my vision suddenly five years ago. That being said, I know where Brian is coming from as well as the individuals on this list who have no vision. I am totally blind, but I am fortunate in that I know what a computer screen looks like. That being said, I have empathy for those who have never seen the screen. I emboss braille diagrams of a screen so they know what they are looking at.

I have worked with students who want to know what the screen looks like (I am able to describe it to them); I also have students who could care less, they just want to be able to do their job. I start out by asking my students (and having them show me) what they know about the computer and JAWS, Window Eyes, or NVDA. I then tailor my lesson plans from what I’ve learned from our conversation. Every student is different; they have their own learning style. There is no “one size fits all”.

 For those who only want a blind person to teach them… that is great… but unfortunately we live in a sighted world. In the workplace you need to be able to show a sighted individual what you are “seeing”.  My teacher was sighted, and because I was newly blind at that time in my life it made sense.

As someone who is totally blind, I agree to certain extent about turning the monitor off so a sighted individual knows how it feels. I don’t know Brian personally, but I’ve read his posts, and I have learned a lot. Don’t judge based on whether a teacher is blind or sighted. Let their work speak for them.

 

I probably ruffled some feathers, and sorry if I did, but we’re all here for the same reason. To help others learn.

 

Jeanette McAllister  PhD

President / CEO

Assistive Technology Tutor

 

                                

A Heart Staffing                                                   

PO Box 1277

Franklin, VA 23851

Direct: 757-346-0708

www.aheartstaffing.com

www.linkedin.com/in/aheartstaffing

 

Member-National Employment Committee – NFB

http://employment.nfb.org/

                                                                    

Member-  Virginia State Rehabilitation Council

                  Dept for the Blind and Visually Impaired         

 

"Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the seeds you plant."

         --Robert Louis Stevenso

 

From: Robin Frost [mailto:robini71@...]
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 7:53 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Hi,

I believe she’s still found at

Robin

 

 

From: Angel

Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 6:39 AM

Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Reading this thread caused me to look up Kathy Anne Murtha's courses on the internet.  I was unable to find them.  Has she discontinued teaching on the internet?  She also sold a course for access technology trainers.  Who learned to use their keyboards alone.  As she was totally blind.  I still have in my archives her windows courses for XP.  I learned quite a lot from them.  Perhaps, if you were to create something similar to her courses for your students they might prove as helpful as were her courses for us.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:18 PM

Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:

I don't mind hearing sighted jargon as long as it is translated into something I can understand on the keyboard.

This actually brings up an interesting sub-question.  Other than when actually instructing on what keystrokes are necessary to accomplish a given action, and during practice to master that action, when I also mention the action name and/or jargon that goes with it, I do not generally ever mention the keystrokes in the future.  I presume that once someone has mastered "select" in the context of a file or files or in the context of a word through a text block that I not only don't, but shouldn't, be mentioning the keystrokes again.  I simply say "select" and the appropriate whatever comes after for the context in question.  I presume that the necessary nuts-and-bolts are already understood and should be used as the basis for building upon more complex tasks.

Is there any reason to keep reiterating the keystrokes once a given action appears to have been mastered rather than just using the action name itself?

Brian

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Jeanette McAllister
 

Hello Everyone:

I have been following this thread and trying to decide if I want to chime in and here I go… let’s see how it goes.

 As a blind assistive technology teacher I can honestly say I could see the computer at one time. I lost my vision suddenly five years ago. That being said, I know where Brian is coming from as well as the individuals on this list who have no vision. I am totally blind, but I am fortunate in that I know what a computer screen looks like. That being said, I have empathy for those who have never seen the screen. I emboss braille diagrams of a screen so they know what they are looking at.

I have worked with students who want to know what the screen looks like (I am able to describe it to them); I also have students who could care less, they just want to be able to do their job. I start out by asking my students (and having them show me) what they know about the computer and JAWS, Window Eyes, or NVDA. I then tailor my lesson plans from what I’ve learned from our conversation. Every student is different; they have their own learning style. There is no “one size fits all”.

 For those who only want a blind person to teach them… that is great… but unfortunately we live in a sighted world. In the workplace you need to be able to show a sighted individual what you are “seeing”.  My teacher was sighted, and because I was newly blind at that time in my life it made sense.

As someone who is totally blind, I agree to certain extent about turning the monitor off so a sighted individual knows how it feels. I don’t know Brian personally, but I’ve read his posts, and I have learned a lot. Don’t judge based on whether a teacher is blind or sighted. Let their work speak for them.

 

I probably ruffled some feathers, and sorry if I did, but we’re all here for the same reason. To help others learn.

 

Jeanette McAllister  PhD

President / CEO

Assistive Technology Tutor

 

                                

A Heart Staffing                                                   

PO Box 1277

Franklin, VA 23851

Direct: 757-346-0708

www.aheartstaffing.com

www.linkedin.com/in/aheartstaffing

 

Member-National Employment Committee – NFB

http://employment.nfb.org/

                                                                    

Member-  Virginia State Rehabilitation Council

                  Dept for the Blind and Visually Impaired         

 

"Don't judge each day by the harvest you reap, but by the seeds you plant."

         --Robert Louis Stevenso

 

From: Robin Frost [mailto:robini71@...]
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 7:53 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Hi,

I believe she’s still found at

Robin

 

 

From: Angel

Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 6:39 AM

Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Reading this thread caused me to look up Kathy Anne Murtha's courses on the internet.  I was unable to find them.  Has she discontinued teaching on the internet?  She also sold a course for access technology trainers.  Who learned to use their keyboards alone.  As she was totally blind.  I still have in my archives her windows courses for XP.  I learned quite a lot from them.  Perhaps, if you were to create something similar to her courses for your students they might prove as helpful as were her courses for us.

----- Original Message -----

Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:18 PM

Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:

I don't mind hearing sighted jargon as long as it is translated into something I can understand on the keyboard.

This actually brings up an interesting sub-question.  Other than when actually instructing on what keystrokes are necessary to accomplish a given action, and during practice to master that action, when I also mention the action name and/or jargon that goes with it, I do not generally ever mention the keystrokes in the future.  I presume that once someone has mastered "select" in the context of a file or files or in the context of a word through a text block that I not only don't, but shouldn't, be mentioning the keystrokes again.  I simply say "select" and the appropriate whatever comes after for the context in question.  I presume that the necessary nuts-and-bolts are already understood and should be used as the basis for building upon more complex tasks.

Is there any reason to keep reiterating the keystrokes once a given action appears to have been mastered rather than just using the action name itself?

Brian

This email has been sent from a virus-free computer protected by Avast.
www.avast.com


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Merv Keck <blind5sparrow@...>
 

Lots of practice hitting the delete key. At least for me, Laughs!
I think I might need a new keyboard. Or at least a new delete key.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy [mailto:bwaylimited@...]
Sent: Friday, February 5, 2016 7:21 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity


And what does this have to do with JAWS?

Gerald



-----Original Message-----
From: Angel
Sent: Friday, February 05, 2016 7:10 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

I can learn much from your diplomacy. Thank you for teaching me.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Robin Frost" <robini71@...>
To: <jfw@groups.io>
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 7:44 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity


Hi,
Oh dear at the risk of getting flamed or other wise in trouble I must
respectfully disagree with that which I read below as it is stated.
While I think that doing so should be part of one's over-all training in
an effort to instruct the blind it might not be the sole criteria therein.
I'll keep it brief as this is straying from the perhaps defined parameters
of this list. However, I'd like to posit the following:
While I'm always impressed by those sighted individuals with whom I
interact over technological concerns who are willing to walk the extra
mile in my shoes as it were and embrace how to do things through the use
of access technology as we do in order to gain a fuller understanding I
also think it's incumbent upon me and in fact necessary for me to do so in
kind. For we will never fully escape the fact that we live in a very
visually oriented world and the more adept we become in navigating its
terrain and terminology especially the more technologically advanced it
becomes the more advantageous it'll be to our own productivity, efficiency
and well being.
I've known both sighted and blind instructors who were fabulous at their
given vocations and I've known both who had no business doing that which
they got paid to do. I've also known both who've given freely of their
time and talents from whom many have benefited.
So while we're all entitled to our opinions, likes and dislikes I hope at
least speaking for myself that I can both learn from, engage with and even
disagree with opposing points of view without needing to surrender
civility and courtesy. As with many things there's more than one way to
accomplish a given thing and my way might not be that which would be most
useful to anyone else and vice versa. but often there are helpful
terminologies and modalities which even if not regularly embraced by
choice can serve to help one cross boundaries and communicate with others
more effectively.
Happy learning and computing one and all.
Robin


-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Byrne
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 5:42 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

If it hasn't been said before, I will:
To learn how to teach JAWS, disconnect the mouse and turn off the screen.
At 03:53 PM 2/4/2016, you wrote:
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 01:34 pm, Jean Menzies <jemenzies@...> wrote:
I agree with the poster that a more appropriate use of language here would
be to “select” something, etc. In other words, name the action/result,
rather than referencing it through sighted jargon.

Jean,

At this point I'm convinced that, on both sides [so to speak -
this isn't a battle, it's an exchange of ideas] there is some talking
past each other going on.

I will say this, then I am going to let it go. I often,
probably more often than not, say "select" something when that's what I
want someone to do. I do, occasionally, slip and say "click on"
something when I would generally say "select" in the context of tutoring.
It simply happens. I've been a classroom instructor, too, and you just
find yourself occasionally (and, in that situation, almost exclusively)
using the jargon of the majority, and when it comes to graphical user
interfaces that majority is the sighted and the jargon relates to what
they (I/we) do. I am, however, acutely aware of the context shift when
I'm doing private tutoring and adjust accordingly.

All I'm saying is that I think it's essential to teach my
students that should I, or anyone else assisting them, for that matter,
say "click on" something that this means "select" something. I'm not
doing anyone any favors by assiduously avoiding any incursion of the most
common computer use terminology because my student so happens to be using
a screen reader. I'm doing them a disservice if I don't make the
connection clear between what they will hear far more commonly and what
that means practically.

Now, from just what I've learned here, I'm actually shocked at
how few people have ever been formally taught about context menus and
their invocation via the right mouse click, whether one is using an
actual mouse or alternate input device to generate it. These menus are
things of beauty, and high efficiency, because they generally are:
* presented as true menus, which virtually every screen-reader user on
this forum has claimed they like best.
* present only the things that are possible for the object type you
have focus on (though there can be stippled out items if their actual use
is not possible given the confluence of circumstances at that moment).

And, finally, so that I can have people storming all over me
and decrying my breathing their air, it's about my making my students
maximally functional in the computer world, not the JAWS world, as far as
I'm concerned. That means making sure that they understand concepts that
others do one way that they will do another, but so that when that
concept is named that other way they absolutely know what that means
functionally to them. You can't, and shouldn't, expect to operate in an
assistive technology bubble.

Brian






Re: Jaws and drop box?

Marianne Denning
 

You need Drop Box on both the computer and iPad. After that, you
treat Drop Box on your computer just like any other drive. If you
know how to save files on your computer you do the same thing except
you save them to Drop Box. We can help more if we know where you are
having problems.

On 2/5/16, Carliss <seejesus@...> wrote:
Listers,

Okay, I am a new be using drop box. I'm using bard mobile app, which is
the
NLS, just in case you didn't know, app for reading the library of congrace
books on tablets and phones.

So here it is, I need the drop box on my computer to connect to the drop
box
on my tablet to get the books that I have selected at the NLS library to
be
installed in to the bard mobile app on my tablet. But I don't know how to
put or get the books or anything for that matter in to drop box? The
austin
main library for the blind did send instructions but that didn't help.
They
looked like good instructions, I just don't understand them.

You know, I like that I can put books that I download in to the drop box
and
through Wifi my computer will connect to the drop box through the bard
mobile app, unzip the books and put them on the bard mobile book shelf.

Okay, I'm here listening.

Thanks to all.





Carliss

--
Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053

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