Date   

Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Carolyn Arnold <4carolyna@...>
 

When I took computer training at the Morehead Center in Raleigh, North Carolina, there was a book with Windows commands, then JAWS specific commands. I assume you use similar material.

Bye for now,

Carolyn

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 1:00 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Nicole,

Thanks. This may sound like backpedaling but it really isn't, but I seldom do something like that with someone who is congenitally blind, except to tell them how they'd get someone who's sighted and assisting them to know where to look. I tend to, with all my clients, actually, start out with an instruction like, "Use INS+F7 to list the links on the page," or, "Use INS+F6 to list the headings on the page," prior to giving any other instruction or feedback, if I give any at all. Since I'm teaching JAWS in the moment the JAWS terminology definitely comes absolutely to the fore because it must.

I teach, for instance, that when using Windows Explorer or File Explorer that JAWS routinely opens a folder and places you on the first item in the folder, but for some reason it does not (and never has, in my experience) select that first item, so if that's the one you want to operate on you must hit the spacebar to select it first but that if you arrow up or down the thing that you've landed on is actually already selected. I then make the point that if someone ever says "click on" file X they're telling you to select it or to "double click" they mean to open it/activate it, as the case may be. As I think about it, I probably use screen layout information very seldom as a part of teaching how to do something, but fairly frequently in just mentioning where the thing that is being worked on is located. I guess that's because I literally work with the latter method of orientation and know that others will, when trying to help, too. I never use "mouse references" like, "hover over object X," but will use right and left click references because they're sometimes precisely what one must do, using either the mouse pad left/right click buttons on a laptop if one prefers, or the JAWS equivalent, NumPad slash for left click, and NumPad Star (or asterisk or multiply) for right click.

I have, but very rarely, done a "turn off the monitor" exercise because I find it so frustrating. I realize that if I did this more frequently I would develop at least some further proficiency with actual functional use of screen readers. Like most people, though, I fall back on what's easiest for me and that's frequently because time is of the essence.

I really appreciate the feedback and insight.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Adrian Spratt
 

Soronel, I'm glad for your reminder of the visual cortex cause of blindness. The NIH broadcast a lecture last year on this subject. As you explain, it calls for a very different approach to managing the disability, including how to conceptualize JAWS functions.

-----Original Message-----
From: Soronel Haetir [mailto:soronel.haetir@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 3:10 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

I would say that while 'click' is a common enough action, and possibly
right click (depending on audience) for anything less common you
should state the desired action ("select the text to copy") before any
means of accomplishing it.
I am extremely computer literate (I worked as a computer programmer
before my health unrelated to blindness made employment no longer an
option) and still mess with it as a serious hobby, and I could not
tell you what commands the newer style gestures invoke (I could of
course look it up, but that is beside the point for instruction).

I used to talk with someone who had enormous problems even with
directions (up/down/left/right) and building up the sort of visual map
you talk about. Her blindness stemmed from an unformed visual cortex
rather than anything actually wrong with her eyes. It turns out those
same brain circuits are involved in picture development whether
something is seen or not. So even the assumption that someone can
relate to that sort of description is not necessarily well founded.
Ina case like that you definitely need to stick with instructions like
"hit tab until you reach the 'Fonts' button", rather than "tab down to
the fonts button". The down in that case was something she would have
to take time to translate to something meaningful to her.





On 2/4/16, Brian Vogel <britechguy@gmail.com> wrote:
Hello All,

I have recently been e-mailing back and forth with several members
here off-forum about topics and issues that go beyond the scope of
discussion here. In the course of a specific exchange, and from the
previous occurrence here of someone telling me, "that's a sighted answer," I
composed the following in an e-mail, which I'll share here verbatim:

--------------------------------
I actually try to avoid purely visual descriptions to the extent
I can. You may find the following amusing, and it took me a long time to
get comfortable asking it, but the first question I ask any of my clients
when we start tutoring is, "How blind are you?" I often have very sketchy
information about what residual vision, if any, they have and it's critical
to know that (and whether it will remain) as far as how to approach certain
things. I then follow up with, "Has your vision always been this way or
could you see previously?" Both of these answers factor in to whether I
ever mention specific colors, for instance, because the actuality, as
opposed to the abstract concept, of color is meaningless to those who've
never had the sensory experience of color. Everyone, though, has to have
the concepts of left, right, up, down in both the vertical and horizontal
planes, so I don't hesitate to say something like "at the lower right"
because I know that that translates in a very specific way once you have any
orientation at all to "how you get where" in relation to your own computer
screen. If this is a bad idea, for reasons I can't fathom as a sighted
person, I welcome suggestions as to what is more appropriate and efficient
for communicating location information for access. Mind you, I do use
specifics like "in the main menu bar," "in the insert ribbon," "4th button
over by tabbing," etc..
I've never understood "the furor" that some people get into over
the use of common computer actions like click, right click, triple-finger
double-tap, etc. I mean, I realize that a screen reader user does not
literally click or right click, but they had ought to know that click
translates to select (most of the time), double click translates to
activate, there exists a "right click" function to allow you to bring up
context menus (which are often a godsend), etc. This is a situation where I
actually feel it's incumbent on the student to ask if they do not understand
what a specific "sighted" reference which is what they'll always be hearing
from someone other than a fellow screen reader user translates to in
"screen-readerese." You're never going to get a sighted assistant telling
you to "press spacebar to select/activate" something, they'll tell you
either to select it or to click on it. If you go to training classes for
non-screen reader software you absolutely have to know and understand how
common computing control jargon "translates" for you. Mind you, if I've got
an absolute beginner I teach the translation at the outset but what I don't
do is use screen readerese unless it's essential. I think that limits
independence rather than building it.

--------------------------------

Just as I said yesterday that it is members of the cohort here, not I, who
are best able to determine if a given document is accessible via JAWS. The
cohort here is also better able to instruct me in where my assumptions,
presumptions, techniques may either be completely wrong or in need of some
improvement.

The only thing I will ask is that if something in the above is considered
really offensive, please don't excoriate me about that, but make me aware
that it is offensive and why. I am honestly trying to get better at what I
do both as a tutor and as a sighted person working with people with visual
impairments. I know that my frame of reference is different than yours, or
at least could be, and that it may be in need of adjustment. The only way I
can make that adjustment is to put my thoughts out there and ask for help.

I'll close with a quotation from Carlin Romano that I think has direct
parallels here, "When intellectuals take their ideas to the mass
market, they are not just doing a good deed for the mass market. They are
doing a good thing for themselves. The mass marketplace of ideas proves to
be a better critic of big assumptions in any field than is the specialized
discipline, or one's peers."

Brian

--
Soronel Haetir
soronel.haetir@gmail.com


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Jason White
 

Adrian Spratt <Adrian@AdrianSpratt.com> wrote:
Maria, for clarification, it's the shift+F10 key combination that has the
same function as the applications key. Also, the applications key and
right-mouse-click menus are often, but not always, identical.

The Windows 7 laptop which I use at work lacks an applications key. When it
isn't connected to an external keyboard, I can use Shift-F10 to access a
context menu. However, under Windows Explorer, the menu that you get using the
applications key is different from the menu accessed with Shift-F10.

I searched the Web and found out that, in Windows explorer, you can access the
context menu that normally requires the applications key by pressing
Ctrl-Shift-F10.


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Adrian Spratt
 

I knew you knew. I was thinking of others who might be unfamiliar with it.

 

From: Maria Campbell [mailto:lucky1inct@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:53 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Yeah I knew it was one of those key combos I couldn't quite remember.
There are too many of those and fewer and fewer brain cells here anymore.


Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...
 
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix
 

On 2/4/2016 4:47 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:

Maria, for clarification, it’s the shift+F10 key combination that has the same function as the applications key. Also, the applications key and right-mouse-click menus are often, but not always, identical.

 

From: Maria Campbell [mailto:lucky1inct@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:28 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Sorry about the f10 key working like the applications key, it does not.  As Jean says the key left of the right control key is the context menu key, or applications key, which I use all the time.
I avoid the laptop keyboard like the plague and use an external keyboard on my laptop all the time.  I refuse to learn two sets of JAWS commands.

Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...
 
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix
 

On 2/4/2016 4:09 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:

the applications key or the f10 key

 Maria,

           Are these two synonymous, like "JAWS Key" and INSERT (or CAPS LOCK, if Laptop), or are they two different things?

           There have been recent references in different threads to "the applications key" and I have no idea what it is, or at least that's not the terminology I'm familiar with for it if it turns out I use it all the time.

Brian

 

 


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Maria Campbell
 

Yeah I knew it was one of those key combos I couldn't quite remember.
There are too many of those and fewer and fewer brain cells here anymore.

Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix

On 2/4/2016 4:47 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:

Maria, for clarification, it’s the shift+F10 key combination that has the same function as the applications key. Also, the applications key and right-mouse-click menus are often, but not always, identical.

 

From: Maria Campbell [mailto:lucky1inct@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:28 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Sorry about the f10 key working like the applications key, it does not.  As Jean says the key left of the right control key is the context menu key, or applications key, which I use all the time.
I avoid the laptop keyboard like the plague and use an external keyboard on my laptop all the time.  I refuse to learn two sets of JAWS commands.


Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...
 
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix
 

On 2/4/2016 4:09 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:

the applications key or the f10 key

 Maria,

           Are these two synonymous, like "JAWS Key" and INSERT (or CAPS LOCK, if Laptop), or are they two different things?

           There have been recent references in different threads to "the applications key" and I have no idea what it is, or at least that's not the terminology I'm familiar with for it if it turns out I use it all the time.

Brian

 



Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Adrian Spratt
 

Maria, for clarification, it’s the shift+F10 key combination that has the same function as the applications key. Also, the applications key and right-mouse-click menus are often, but not always, identical.

 

From: Maria Campbell [mailto:lucky1inct@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 5:28 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

Sorry about the f10 key working like the applications key, it does not.  As Jean says the key left of the right control key is the context menu key, or applications key, which I use all the time.
I avoid the laptop keyboard like the plague and use an external keyboard on my laptop all the time.  I refuse to learn two sets of JAWS commands.


Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...
 
When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix
 

On 2/4/2016 4:09 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:

the applications key or the f10 key

 Maria,

           Are these two synonymous, like "JAWS Key" and INSERT (or CAPS LOCK, if Laptop), or are they two different things?

           There have been recent references in different threads to "the applications key" and I have no idea what it is, or at least that's not the terminology I'm familiar with for it if it turns out I use it all the time.

Brian

 


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:39 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
On an external keyboard the height and distance are closer to the keys on a typewriter, and since I've been typing since sixth grade, it makes a big difference to me.

 Trust me, even though I can use a laptop and laptop keyboard like a champ I still prefer the rake on a regular keyboard.  I have marveled at the fact that no one has ever tried marketing a laptop that has a keyboard with the rake and key size associated with a desktop.  It's far from impossible, and I know a lot of people who'd absolutely love to have that feature!

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Maria Campbell
 

Scorching.

Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@gmail.com

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix

On 2/4/2016 4:42 PM, Ann Byrne wrote:
If it hasn't been said before, I will:
To learn how to teach JAWS, disconnect the mouse and turn off the screen.
At 03:53 PM 2/4/2016, you wrote:
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 01:34 pm, Jean Menzies <jemenzies@shaw.ca> wrote:
I agree with the poster that a more appropriate use of language here would be to “select†something, etc. In other words, name the action/result, rather than referencing it through sighted jargon.

Jean,

At this point I'm convinced that, on both sides [so to speak - this isn't a battle, it's an exchange of ideas] there is some talking past each other going on.

I will say this, then I am going to let it go. I often, probably more often than not, say "select" something when that's what I want someone to do. I do, occasionally, slip and say "click on" something when I would generally say "select" in the context of tutoring. It simply happens. I've been a classroom instructor, too, and you just find yourself occasionally (and, in that situation, almost exclusively) using the jargon of the majority, and when it comes to graphical user interfaces that majority is the sighted and the jargon relates to what they (I/we) do. I am, however, acutely aware of the context shift when I'm doing private tutoring and adjust accordingly.

All I'm saying is that I think it's essential to teach my students that should I, or anyone else assisting them, for that matter, say "click on" something that this means "select" something. I'm not doing anyone any favors by assiduously avoiding any incursion of the most common computer use terminology because my student so happens to be using a screen reader. I'm doing them a disservice if I don't make the connection clear between what they will hear far more commonly and what that means practically.

Now, from just what I've learned here, I'm actually shocked at how few people have ever been formally taught about context menus and their invocation via the right mouse click, whether one is using an actual mouse or alternate input device to generate it. These menus are things of beauty, and high efficiency, because they generally are:
* presented as true menus, which virtually every screen-reader user on this forum has claimed they like best.
* present only the things that are possible for the object type you have focus on (though there can be stippled out items if their actual use is not possible given the confluence of circumstances at that moment).

And, finally, so that I can have people storming all over me and decrying my breathing their air, it's about my making my students maximally functional in the computer world, not the JAWS world, as far as I'm concerned. That means making sure that they understand concepts that others do one way that they will do another, but so that when that concept is named that other way they absolutely know what that means functionally to them. You can't, and shouldn't, expect to operate in an assistive technology bubble.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Ann Byrne
 

If it hasn't been said before, I will:
To learn how to teach JAWS, disconnect the mouse and turn off the screen.

At 03:53 PM 2/4/2016, you wrote:
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 01:34 pm, Jean Menzies <jemenzies@shaw.ca> wrote:
I agree with the poster that a more appropriate use of language here would be to “select� something, etc. In other words, name the action/result, rather than referencing it through sighted jargon.

Jean,

At this point I'm convinced that, on both sides [so to speak - this isn't a battle, it's an exchange of ideas] there is some talking past each other going on.

I will say this, then I am going to let it go. I often, probably more often than not, say "select" something when that's what I want someone to do. I do, occasionally, slip and say "click on" something when I would generally say "select" in the context of tutoring. It simply happens. I've been a classroom instructor, too, and you just find yourself occasionally (and, in that situation, almost exclusively) using the jargon of the majority, and when it comes to graphical user interfaces that majority is the sighted and the jargon relates to what they (I/we) do. I am, however, acutely aware of the context shift when I'm doing private tutoring and adjust accordingly.

All I'm saying is that I think it's essential to teach my students that should I, or anyone else assisting them, for that matter, say "click on" something that this means "select" something. I'm not doing anyone any favors by assiduously avoiding any incursion of the most common computer use terminology because my student so happens to be using a screen reader. I'm doing them a disservice if I don't make the connection clear between what they will hear far more commonly and what that means practically.

Now, from just what I've learned here, I'm actually shocked at how few people have ever been formally taught about context menus and their invocation via the right mouse click, whether one is using an actual mouse or alternate input device to generate it. These menus are things of beauty, and high efficiency, because they generally are:
* presented as true menus, which virtually every screen-reader user on this forum has claimed they like best.
* present only the things that are possible for the object type you have focus on (though there can be stippled out items if their actual use is not possible given the confluence of circumstances at that moment).

And, finally, so that I can have people storming all over me and decrying my breathing their air, it's about my making my students maximally functional in the computer world, not the JAWS world, as far as I'm concerned. That means making sure that they understand concepts that others do one way that they will do another, but so that when that concept is named that other way they absolutely know what that means functionally to them. You can't, and shouldn't, expect to operate in an assistive technology bubble.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Maria Campbell
 

It isn't just the JAWS commands that bother me about laptops.  It's also the height and distance of the keys.  On an external keyboard the height and distance are closer to the keys on a typewriter, and since I've been typing since sixth grade, it makes a big difference to me.
 
Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix

On 2/4/2016 4:34 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:28 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
I avoid the laptop keyboard like the plague and use an external keyboard on my laptop all the time.  I refuse to learn two sets of JAWS commands.

 FYI, if your laptop keyboard has a number pad, and the applications/menu key [since some don't] then it is essentially the same as a desktop keyboard.  All of my current students have laptops, but all of them also have full-sized keyboards with number pads, so the JAWS settings defaulted to desktop keyboard.  It took me a while to figure that out at first, way back when.  I couldn't understand why those *%$#* laptop keystrokes simply refused to work on the laptops I was dealing with.  Then the light went on/the penny dropped.

Brian



Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:34 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
So I'll muddy the water some more by saying that what I know of as the menu key is the alt key, not the applications key, which I know of as the context menu key.

 Actually, you're being dead-on accurate and correct.  That being said, I still hear reference to the context menu/applications key being made frequently as "the menu key" because the context part is implied for most sighted users.  Anyone I know who can see is either a point-and-clicker (more common) or a keyboard shortcut user as far as the real menus, or their ribbon replacements, go.

Here's another place where some very serious miscommunication could occur secondary to specific jargon differences between user communities.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:28 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
I avoid the laptop keyboard like the plague and use an external keyboard on my laptop all the time.  I refuse to learn two sets of JAWS commands.

 FYI, if your laptop keyboard has a number pad, and the applications/menu key [since some don't] then it is essentially the same as a desktop keyboard.  All of my current students have laptops, but all of them also have full-sized keyboards with number pads, so the JAWS settings defaulted to desktop keyboard.  It took me a while to figure that out at first, way back when.  I couldn't understand why those *%$#* laptop keystrokes simply refused to work on the laptops I was dealing with.  Then the light went on/the penny dropped.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Maria Campbell
 

So I'll muddy the water some more by saying that what I know of as the menu key is the alt key, not the applications key, which I know of as the context menu key.
 
Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix

On 2/4/2016 4:30 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:21 pm, Jean Menzies <jemenzies@...> wrote:
They are the same. Context key: typically beside the right alt key (between alt and control) on a standard keyboard.

 Thanks Jean.  Now that you've described it that's what I've more commonly heard referred to as "the menu key" for the very reason that it's used very frequently to cause context menus to appear.

This key seems to be becoming more variable as far as precisely where it's placed and whether a keyboard has one, particularly on laptops.  My relatively new HP laptop doesn't have one at all.  My partner's slightly older Toshiba laptop has it located between ALT and CTRL on the right side of the spacebar while the Windows key is in that position on the left on both our laptops.  I'll have to look at my old Win7 laptop upstairs to see if it had a menu/applications key on it.

Brian



Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Bill White <billwhite92701@...>
 


The reason you should learn the sighted jargon is that if you know the sighted jargon, you can look up a procedure on Google, and translate that procedure into something you can implement with your screen reader of choice.
----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 1:34 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Hello Brian,
 
You said:
The point I was trying to get across, and it seems what I've said has had limited success in that department, is that any user of a computer had better understand how the general jargon of computer use relates to their actual technique of accomplishing a given action.
 
My response:
But why should I struggle to learn the intricacies of “sighted world jargon” such as mouse click vernacular when I don’t need to? Yes, I know how to use the Jaws left and right click simulations, and when and how I use them. But does it really matter that I understand the relationship to a real mouse? E.g., that left click is select, for instance? It sounds like an effort not toward computer literacy, but toward making the blind user fall more squarely into the sighted user camp. Yes, I understand computerese instructions I find on the Internet, and have no trouble using them. (except for when it tells me to click on things JAWS can’t find.) But that’s another story.
I agree with the poster that a more appropriate use of language here would be to “select” something, etc. In other words, name the action/result, rather than referencing it through sighted jargon.
 
Jean
 
 
 
Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 1:13 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity
 
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 12:10 pm, Soronel Haetir <soronel.haetir@...> wrote:
Her blindness stemmed from an unformed visual cortex
rather than anything actually wrong with her eyes. It turns out those
same brain circuits are involved in picture development whether
something is seen or not. So even the assumption that someone can
relate to that sort of description is not necessarily well founded.

Soronel,

           Which circles right back around to ground zero.  I have definitely been trying to describe my "general client" without getting too bogged down in the idiosyncracies that can and do pop up as a direct result of an individual's sensory history.

           I actually do what you've mentioned as far as giving directions and, for instance, have never used the phrase, "swipe over that text to select it," because that method of selection means nothing, or virtually nothing, to anyone who has never been capable of using it and is of no help even to those who did and could, but aren't able to now.   The point I was trying to get across, and it seems what I've said has had limited success in that department, is that any user of a computer had better understand how the general jargon of computer use relates to their actual technique of accomplishing a given action.  I actively teach both, tying the two together.

           As far as my personal attempts to customize my instruction to a given client, I don't think I could make it any more clear than I have that I do, indeed, do this as a standard practice.  It just goes with the territory.  If ever, "one size fits all," were blatantly false it's in the case of one-on-one instruction for assistive technology of any variety.

Brian



__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 12977 (20160204) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


__________ Information from ESET NOD32 Antivirus, version of virus signature database 12977 (20160204) __________

The message was checked by ESET NOD32 Antivirus.

http://www.eset.com


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:21 pm, Jean Menzies <jemenzies@...> wrote:
They are the same. Context key: typically beside the right alt key (between alt and control) on a standard keyboard.

 Thanks Jean.  Now that you've described it that's what I've more commonly heard referred to as "the menu key" for the very reason that it's used very frequently to cause context menus to appear.

This key seems to be becoming more variable as far as precisely where it's placed and whether a keyboard has one, particularly on laptops.  My relatively new HP laptop doesn't have one at all.  My partner's slightly older Toshiba laptop has it located between ALT and CTRL on the right side of the spacebar while the Windows key is in that position on the left on both our laptops.  I'll have to look at my old Win7 laptop upstairs to see if it had a menu/applications key on it.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Maria Campbell
 

Sorry about the f10 key working like the applications key, it does not.  As Jean says the key left of the right control key is the context menu key, or applications key, which I use all the time.
I avoid the laptop keyboard like the plague and use an external keyboard on my laptop all the time.  I refuse to learn two sets of JAWS commands.

Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix

On 2/4/2016 4:09 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
the applications key or the f10 key

 Maria,

           Are these two synonymous, like "JAWS Key" and INSERT (or CAPS LOCK, if Laptop), or are they two different things?

           There have been recent references in different threads to "the applications key" and I have no idea what it is, or at least that's not the terminology I'm familiar with for it if it turns out I use it all the time.

Brian



Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Jean Menzies <jemenzies@...>
 

They are the same. Context key: typically beside the right alt key (between alt and control) on a standard keyboard.
 

Sent: Thursday, February 4, 2016 2:09 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity
 
On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
the applications key or the f10 key

Maria,

           Are these two synonymous, like "JAWS Key" and INSERT (or CAPS LOCK, if Laptop), or are they two different things?

           There have been recent references in different threads to "the applications key" and I have no idea what it is, or at least that's not the terminology I'm familiar with for it if it turns out I use it all the time.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
I don't mind hearing sighted jargon as long as it is translated into something I can understand on the keyboard.

 This actually brings up an interesting sub-question.  Other than when actually instructing on what keystrokes are necessary to accomplish a given action, and during practice to master that action, when I also mention the action name and/or jargon that goes with it, I do not generally ever mention the keystrokes in the future.  I presume that once someone has mastered "select" in the context of a file or files or in the context of a word through a text block that I not only don't, but shouldn't, be mentioning the keystrokes again.  I simply say "select" and the appropriate whatever comes after for the context in question.  I presume that the necessary nuts-and-bolts are already understood and should be used as the basis for building upon more complex tasks.

Is there any reason to keep reiterating the keystrokes once a given action appears to have been mastered rather than just using the action name itself?

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

 

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 02:04 pm, Maria Campbell <lucky1inct@...> wrote:
the applications key or the f10 key

 Maria,

           Are these two synonymous, like "JAWS Key" and INSERT (or CAPS LOCK, if Laptop), or are they two different things?

           There have been recent references in different threads to "the applications key" and I have no idea what it is, or at least that's not the terminology I'm familiar with for it if it turns out I use it all the time.

Brian


Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Maria Campbell
 

We haven't missed out on the use of the context menus at all, at least not me.
We are told to press the applications key or the f10 key, which is the same as the right mouse click.
I don't mind hearing sighted jargon as long as it is translated into something I can understand on the keyboard.

Maria Campbell
lucky1inct@...

When the power of love overcomes the love of power, the world will know peace.
--Attributed to Jimi Hendrix

On 2/4/2016 3:53 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:

On Thu, Feb 4, 2016 at 01:34 pm, Jean Menzies <jemenzies@...> wrote:
I agree with the poster that a more appropriate use of language here would be to “select” something, etc. In other words, name the action/result, rather than referencing it through sighted jargon.

 Jean,

          At this point I'm convinced that, on both sides [so to speak - this isn't a battle, it's an exchange of ideas] there is some talking past each other going on.

          I will say this, then I am going to let it go.  I often, probably more often than not, say "select" something when that's what I want someone to do.  I do, occasionally, slip and say "click on" something when I would generally say "select" in the context of tutoring.  It simply happens.  I've been a classroom instructor, too, and you just find yourself occasionally (and, in that situation, almost exclusively) using the jargon of the majority, and when it comes to graphical user interfaces that majority is the sighted and the jargon relates to what they (I/we) do.  I am, however, acutely aware of the context shift when I'm doing private tutoring and adjust accordingly.

          All I'm saying is that I think it's essential to teach my students that should I, or anyone else assisting them, for that matter, say "click on" something that this means "select" something.  I'm not doing anyone any favors by assiduously avoiding any incursion of the most common computer use terminology because my student so happens to be using a screen reader.  I'm doing them a disservice if I don't make the connection clear between what they will hear far more commonly and what that means practically.

          Now, from just what I've learned here, I'm actually shocked at how few people have ever been formally taught about context menus and their invocation via the right mouse click, whether one is using an actual mouse or alternate input device to generate it.  These menus are things of beauty, and high efficiency, because they generally are:  

  1. presented as true menus, which virtually every screen-reader user on this forum has claimed they like best.
  2. present only the things that are possible for the object type you have focus on (though there can be stippled out items if their actual use is not possible given the confluence of circumstances at that moment).

          And, finally, so that I can have people storming all over me and decrying my breathing their air, it's about my making my students maximally functional in the computer world, not the JAWS world, as far as I'm concerned.  That means making sure that they understand concepts that others do one way that they will do another, but so that when that concept is named that other way they absolutely know what that means functionally to them.  You can't, and shouldn't, expect to operate in an assistive technology bubble.

Brian