Date   

Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

 

Cindy,

          Sorry for the confusion.   You directly quoted Gerald's earlier post within your own such that it looked entirely like you had typed what was said. The included text is in the same font, color, and flows as though it were a part of your own narrative.  Now that I've thoroughly combed back through all of the posts I see what happened.

          And I agree with you that there's been a lot more anger than yours asserted here.

Brian


Re: Seeing your download

Adrian Spratt
 

Ted, am I missing something, or do you press control-j to open a window showing download progress? This worked for me in IE11, as it has done in earlier versions of IE. As an aside, Chrome makes this information all but moot because it downloads even big files so incredibly fast.

 

From: Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS) [mailto:Ted.Lisle@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 10:28 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Seeing your download

 

Pardon me for changing the thread here, but I’ve recently noticed something since switching to 11, and I think I saw something about it on this list earlier.  I can no longer track the progress of my download on screen.  Is there a default to restore the older behavior?  It might be right there on the opening screen, and I didn’t know to look for it.

 

Ted

 

From: Paul D. J. Jenkins [mailto:pdjj6123@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 7:14 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Sound Extension For Downloading In Chrome

 

Good evening Mike!

 

  I am sorry to have to pester you with this, but do you know of a similar extension for Mozilla Firefox?  Most unfortunately, there are still some pages I have an easier time working with in Firefox, than in Chrome.

 

Take care,

 

Paul Jenkins

 

From: Mike B. [mailto:mb69mach1@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 16:55
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Fw: Sound Extension For Downloading In Chrome

 

Howdy Y'all,

 

I finally found an extension that plays a sound when a download is complete.  Info is below:

 

Extension

 

Download Notifier
offered by ehaagwlke
(83)
Category: Productivity
4,514 users
Added to Chrome
Share

 

OVERVIEW
OVERVIEW
REVIEWS
REVIEWS
SUPPORT
SUPPORT
RELATED
RELATED

 

Compatible with your device
You get a desktop notification while your downloading finished.
0.0.5
I get the time to make the 'play a sound when download finished' feature configurable. And you also can decide whether the default download shelf should
display or not (though I prefer NOT).

 

Another change is, there will be more than one notification card displayed.

 

All things now could be configured via options page.

 

**********
V0.0.4
Here comes three new things:
1. The "Open" button now can be used
2. While one download finished, it would play a sound (not configurable for now)
3. The icon would be visible even if you are using a pure black theme

 

and one more thing (might be buggy):
- sometimes Chrome thought the file downloaded would be harmful, once this happened, this extension will prompt to ask for your confirmation, and this
will be done on the chrome://downloads page. And, this feature might be buggy, if
you encounter any problem, contact or email me. Thank you.

 

**********

 

This extension does two things:

 

1. Disabled the download shelf. Yes, I personally do not like it. So when I get the change, I just disabled it. You will get a badge while something is
downloading. Sorry no progress bar available for now.

 

2. Display a desktop notification when your downloading finished, and you could find it by one simple click.

 

TODO(May be implemented in future, may not):

 

1. An animated browser action icon which could show the downloading progress

 

2. A "OPEN" button on the notification card -- depends on whether Google would allow me to do so. [V0.0.4 added]

 

3. A popup shows all the downloads -- actually it was almost there, if there had not been some annoying bugs.
Report Abuse
Version: 0.0.5
Updated: June 21, 2015
Size: 1.73MiB
Languages: See all 2

Take care.
Mike


Re: Need Steps For Updating Internet Explorer

 

Adrian,

          Just FYI, and this is the long view, but Microsoft has already announced that Internet Explorer official support is going to end.  The introduction of Edge with Windows 10 is the debut of the intended replacement.  Edge is definitely a good browser but equally definitely nowhere near to maturity and it was released without a number of features, add-on support being the most obvious, that are now considered essential for any browser to become or remain competitive.

          There is absolutely no way that Freedom Scientific or any screen reader maker is going to be able to remain with IE as the default Microsoft browser over the long term.  Having this in the back of your mind may at least help to ease the shock when the inevitable announcements come about the shift to Edge or the decision to throw over primary support to Chrome, which is eating the shorts of every other web browser out there in terms of user base these days.

Brian


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

Cindy Ray <cindyray@...>
 

I am not sure what post of mine you are talking about.

There has been a lot more anger than mine asserted here.

Cindy

 

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 9:53 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

 

Cindy Lou,

          I want to be clear that I was trying to state that your anger, which there was in that post, was entirely justifiable but that your assertion, "with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best," was not.  The value of Captchas for that particular security purpose is incredibly strong and well documented.  It made a very wide array of bot based attacks vanish and stay vanished.  That was the focus of my comment to you.

          The rest was more general.  I can never understand the degree of frustration that has been expressed in this thread other than in the abstract because I do know that the issues you all have identified don't affect me.  But at the same time there seems to be an undercurrent of, "this is a plot against accessibility," which it most certainly was not.

          There are also a lot of Captcha imitators who, to put it mildly, have never even attempted to support accessibility.  I could post links to a number of web pages I know of that use the "image of distorted letters but with no alternate nor audio" verification method, and hasten to add that these are not Captchas, though I get entirely why the term Captcha has become generic much like Kleenex, Jello, Frigidaire, Xerox, and many others before it.  Everyone who holds the trademarks on these gets really upset when they become "the generic term" because those who are doing knock-offs are generally not doing good or faithful ones.  I just want to emphasize that the Captcha folks already recognize what a barrier even the "improved" version can be, hence the move to reCaptcha that I mentioned earlier.

          There really is, believe it or not, a genuine concern with accessibility and thinking about it ahead of time by most major companies these days.  Some are still caught with the technology (e.g., conventional Captchas) that they have until the next release of their development cycle catches up.  Others, however, really don't give a flying rat's patootie and should be pilloried for that.

Brian


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

Adrian Spratt
 

Actually, I've read some legal agreements involving online sellers that address the CAPTCHA issue and require an accessible alternative in the event the company insists on retaining CAPTCHA. I wish I could go into more detail, but the agreements with which I'm familiar are confidential.

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy [mailto:bwaylimited@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:35 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?


And the reason this situation exists in the first place is that the
blindness advocacy groups which are supposed to look out for our best
interests have shown absolutely no willingness to challenge online sellers
who insist on confronting their customers, blind and sighted alike, with
image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best.

Gerald



-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:18 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

And the only people excluded from making the statement they're human by
identifying a captia are the blind. Sounds like a totally messed up system
but we're still captive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ray [mailto:cindyray@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 8:42 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

No, it isn't proof enough maybe, but it is one of the stones to barriers.
There is no such thing as 100% safe.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron [mailto:jbron@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 7:36 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

I have been following this thread and still the question I have about
captias for ages is still not answered. We have criminal minds who spend
their time messing up people's lives by hacking their information via their
on line accounts and stealing their identity. We have folks who steal
people's address books and try to extort money from their family and
friends. We are supposed to recognize an image so we can prove we're human
and not robots. What can someone sitting on the other end of a computer in
srilanka know about my status as a human being if I can tell him what some
captia reads? If they would create the captias so we could read them back
character by character problem solved, but that isn't proof enough that
we're not devious. Judith

-----Original Message-----
From: Kane Brolin [mailto:kbrolin65@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 8:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

It will be a while before CAPTCHAs are stopped. This might happen, once
compatibility with mobile browsing becomes a universal standard.
But the provider of online info related to my Visa card, for example,
requires me to verify a CAPTCHA every time I sign in. Not just to change
account settings or to do some other specialized or sensitive task--just to
log in to check my points!

The muddy/hard-to-understand nature of the audio CAPTCHA is the whole point.
They want something that requires subjective, human perception to
understand--not just a clear voice-print that dictation software could
translate automatically into text in the way that Grasshopper does with a
voicemail message.

-Kane


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

 

Cindy Lou,

          I want to be clear that I was trying to state that your anger, which there was in that post, was entirely justifiable but that your assertion, "with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best," was not.  The value of Captchas for that particular security purpose is incredibly strong and well documented.  It made a very wide array of bot based attacks vanish and stay vanished.  That was the focus of my comment to you.

          The rest was more general.  I can never understand the degree of frustration that has been expressed in this thread other than in the abstract because I do know that the issues you all have identified don't affect me.  But at the same time there seems to be an undercurrent of, "this is a plot against accessibility," which it most certainly was not.

          There are also a lot of Captcha imitators who, to put it mildly, have never even attempted to support accessibility.  I could post links to a number of web pages I know of that use the "image of distorted letters but with no alternate nor audio" verification method, and hasten to add that these are not Captchas, though I get entirely why the term Captcha has become generic much like Kleenex, Jello, Frigidaire, Xerox, and many others before it.  Everyone who holds the trademarks on these gets really upset when they become "the generic term" because those who are doing knock-offs are generally not doing good or faithful ones.  I just want to emphasize that the Captcha folks already recognize what a barrier even the "improved" version can be, hence the move to reCaptcha that I mentioned earlier.

          There really is, believe it or not, a genuine concern with accessibility and thinking about it ahead of time by most major companies these days.  Some are still caught with the technology (e.g., conventional Captchas) that they have until the next release of their development cycle catches up.  Others, however, really don't give a flying rat's patootie and should be pilloried for that.

Brian


Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Sometimes field names will respond to a small change in Verbosity.  For example, Access won’t read Field names in Advanced, but will in Intermediate.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Monday, December 28, 2015 5:51 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: CONFUSED! Adobe Reader XI seems to do OCR automatically?

 

Gudrun,

          Now I'm a bit confused, so we're going to have to walk each other through some of the details to see where our differences lie and whether there is something toxic going on between JAWS and Adobe Reader.    Here is the IRS Form W9, straight from the source.  It, like every other IRS PDF file I've ever dealt with, does not need to be OCRed because the thing is developed in Adobe Acrobat and as is should be readable by JAWS.  Mind you, I don't have JAWS here but whenever I am able to do a search in Adobe Reader and find text that has indicated that it should be readable by JAWS.  Now, I haven't worked with anyone as far as what JAWS may or may not read in regard to the fillable fields.

          I just downloaded the above linked form W9 and opened it in Acrobat Reader DC.  I have searched for the phrase "income tax return" and it can be found at two locations.  I have filled in the first two fields, Name and Business Name, respectively, and was allowed to save the form.  When I close Adobe Reader DC entirely and then open the FW9 file that I saved all information I've entered remains there.

          If I hit a single tab once the file opens that places me in the first fillable filed, Name in this case, and each successive tab takes me to the next fillable field, whether that's a text/edit box, check box, etc.  My guess is that once one has focus on the fillable fields that is where it stays unless one uses the F5 command to shift focus back to the PDF document text, that's worth a try, anyway.  Here is the latest collection of Adobe Reader DC keyboard shortcuts.  In a particularly perversely funny twist the keyboard shortcuts for accessibility are available on this page but the direct link to them is hidden unless you hit "show more."  Of course, a search on accessibility will get you there, too.  That being said, the regular keyboard shortcuts may be far more pertinent.

          It would probably help us both if we know we're talking about a specific version of JAWS and a specific version of Adobe Reader.  I would hope that those who create fillable PDF forms would be taking accessibility into consideration (particularly government forms) and that there is some marriage of JAWS and Adobe Reader that would announce what those fields are when you land in them (which, of course, means that field names or alternate text were assigned by the coder).

Brian


Re: Need Steps For Updating Internet Explorer

Adrian Spratt
 

I just downgraded from IE11 to IE10, and so far, performance is improved. I’m also using Win7, along with JAWS 17. I’m told that IE11 was created to address certain browser problems associated with other operating systems and that IE10 is still supported by MS.

 

From: Tom Behler [mailto:tombehler@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 8:26 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Need Steps For Updating Internet Explorer

 

Hello.

 

Can someone give me the steps to update Internet Explorer to IE 11?

 

Currently, on this laptop I use for work, I have IE 9.

 

As we all know, IE 9 will soon not be supported, so I’m thinking I need to bite the bullet and upgrade to IE 11.

 

For reasons I still don’t understand, I had significant problems when trying to enter information into text edit boxes in IE 11 on my home computer this past summer, so I thought I’d upgrade the work computer to IE 11 first, and deal with the home PC from there.

 

I’m currently using Jaws 16 with Windows 7.

 

Also, when you upgrade, are your favorites preserved, or will I have to re-create them for the new version?

 

Thank you!

 

Dr.  Tom Behler from Michigan

 


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

Cindy Ray <cindyray@...>
 

I am a little confused by this message addressed to me and my anger. I don’t think I made such a statement, but maybe I need to go back and check. I asserted that if blind folks are going to accuse the advocacy groups of doing nothing, they should really be a part of one and work together, or then do their criticizing. As for such devices, I have no doubt they help, but Brian, you are a sighted man. You haven’t tried and tried and tried to enter one and not had it work. They have often improved though. And of course, as some have pointed out, there are sites that have no audio ones. Some of those think it is enough to just have us call their customer care so they can take care of us. I understand the reason for Captchas; I don’t understand why they have to be so garbled that no one can hear them or nonexistent. But I kind of think you are referring to someone else’s anger. I have more important things to stress me out except, of course, when I am trying to log into a website, and I’ve never had to try to get into Amazon that way.

Cindy Lou Ray who doesn’t get it.

 

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 9:22 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

 

Cindy Ray,

           You are entitled to your anger, which is justifiable, but not to your assertion that Captchas value at thwarting hackers is "dubious at best."  They functioned (and function) brilliantly at preventing machine-based attacks of all sorts.  They were and are a brilliant idea that had "the law of unintended consequences" attached.  They've also been modified with audio, at least genuine Captcha captchas have, due to accessibility concerns.

           Gerald's assertion is dubious, at best, as advocacy from individuals and groups is precisely what has driven the changes that have already occurred and continue to occur.  When it comes down to it the old adage, "It's not all about you," (and that's for the generic you) applies here.  Businesses and entities are only trying to protect themselves and their assets, and, by extension, their clients.  There is no malicious intent and there is far more awareness, and responsiveness, with regard to accessibility issues when those are identified.

           There is no "one size fits all" solution to any problem, and there is no utility in creating a completely permeable barrier when a partial barrier is actually needed.  Input from those negatively affected is an incredibly valuable and necessary part of working through some issues that really had not been anticipated.


Re: Is There a Way For Me to Change...

 

Ted,

          That wouldn't work unless you did a Save As on the file, as "Date Created" literally sticks with a file and remains unchanged after the first save of that particular copy.  It's particularly interesting to see some of the "date weirdness" you can get when you copy files, as the copies have a Date Created stamp of the time of the copy but the Date Modified stamp is carried over from the file copied from.  It's odd to see a file that says it was modified at a date earlier than its date created.

           Also, the BulkFileChanger utility does allow you to tweak any of the date metadata.  However, since it was written by a European, and there is a desire to make certain that there is no ambiguity regarding what a date actually is, it requires the use of DD/MM/YYYY format for the dates.

Brian


Seeing your download

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

Pardon me for changing the thread here, but I’ve recently noticed something since switching to 11, and I think I saw something about it on this list earlier.  I can no longer track the progress of my download on screen.  Is there a default to restore the older behavior?  It might be right there on the opening screen, and I didn’t know to look for it.

 

Ted

 

From: Paul D. J. Jenkins [mailto:pdjj6123@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 7:14 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Sound Extension For Downloading In Chrome

 

Good evening Mike!

 

  I am sorry to have to pester you with this, but do you know of a similar extension for Mozilla Firefox?  Most unfortunately, there are still some pages I have an easier time working with in Firefox, than in Chrome.

 

Take care,

 

Paul Jenkins

 

From: Mike B. [mailto:mb69mach1@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 16:55
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Fw: Sound Extension For Downloading In Chrome

 

Howdy Y'all,

 

I finally found an extension that plays a sound when a download is complete.  Info is below:

 

Extension

 

Download Notifier
offered by ehaagwlke
(83)
Category: Productivity
4,514 users
Added to Chrome
Share

 

OVERVIEW
OVERVIEW
REVIEWS
REVIEWS
SUPPORT
SUPPORT
RELATED
RELATED

 

Compatible with your device
You get a desktop notification while your downloading finished.
0.0.5
I get the time to make the 'play a sound when download finished' feature configurable. And you also can decide whether the default download shelf should
display or not (though I prefer NOT).

 

Another change is, there will be more than one notification card displayed.

 

All things now could be configured via options page.

 

**********
V0.0.4
Here comes three new things:
1. The "Open" button now can be used
2. While one download finished, it would play a sound (not configurable for now)
3. The icon would be visible even if you are using a pure black theme

 

and one more thing (might be buggy):
- sometimes Chrome thought the file downloaded would be harmful, once this happened, this extension will prompt to ask for your confirmation, and this
will be done on the chrome://downloads page. And, this feature might be buggy, if
you encounter any problem, contact or email me. Thank you.

 

**********

 

This extension does two things:

 

1. Disabled the download shelf. Yes, I personally do not like it. So when I get the change, I just disabled it. You will get a badge while something is
downloading. Sorry no progress bar available for now.

 

2. Display a desktop notification when your downloading finished, and you could find it by one simple click.

 

TODO(May be implemented in future, may not):

 

1. An animated browser action icon which could show the downloading progress

 

2. A "OPEN" button on the notification card -- depends on whether Google would allow me to do so. [V0.0.4 added]

 

3. A popup shows all the downloads -- actually it was almost there, if there had not been some annoying bugs.
Report Abuse
Version: 0.0.5
Updated: June 21, 2015
Size: 1.73MiB
Languages: See all 2

Take care.
Mike


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

Mario
 

I think the reason why website authors used the idea of the CAPTCHA is because it was the only solution they could think of to provide some way of thwarting spammers and web bots at the time, and therefore the wide spread use of these little devils, to add to what Gerald said.

On 1/6/2016 9:53 AM, Cindy Ray wrote:
Gerald, do you belong to a blind advocacy group? Either one of them? It is pretty amazing to make a statement like this if you don't: And the reason this situation exists in the first place is that the blindness advocacy groups which are supposed to look out for our best interests have shown absolutely no willingness to challenge online sellers who insist on confronting their customers, blind and sighted alike, with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best.
We who are blind are all responsible for helping to make the changes. Much change has been made; some of this issue has been worked on as well. Probably the reason for audio captchas has something to do with blind advocacy groups. I don't for the life understand how people self-righteously make statements like this, yet they are not willing to stand with us and work on the problems.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy [mailto:bwaylimited@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 8:35 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?


And the reason this situation exists in the first place is that the blindness advocacy groups which are supposed to look out for our best interests have shown absolutely no willingness to challenge online sellers who insist on confronting their customers, blind and sighted alike, with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best.

Gerald



-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:18 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

And the only people excluded from making the statement they're human by identifying a captia are the blind. Sounds like a totally messed up system but we're still captive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ray [mailto:cindyray@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 8:42 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

No, it isn't proof enough maybe, but it is one of the stones to barriers.
There is no such thing as 100% safe.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron [mailto:jbron@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 7:36 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

I have been following this thread and still the question I have about captias for ages is still not answered. We have criminal minds who spend their time messing up people's lives by hacking their information via their on line accounts and stealing their identity. We have folks who steal people's address books and try to extort money from their family and friends. We are supposed to recognize an image so we can prove we're human and not robots. What can someone sitting on the other end of a computer in srilanka know about my status as a human being if I can tell him what some captia reads? If they would create the captias so we could read them back character by character problem solved, but that isn't proof enough that we're not devious. Judith

-----Original Message-----
From: Kane Brolin [mailto:kbrolin65@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 8:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

It will be a while before CAPTCHAs are stopped. This might happen, once compatibility with mobile browsing becomes a universal standard.
But the provider of online info related to my Visa card, for example, requires me to verify a CAPTCHA every time I sign in. Not just to change account settings or to do some other specialized or sensitive task--just to log in to check my points!

The muddy/hard-to-understand nature of the audio CAPTCHA is the whole point.
They want something that requires subjective, human perception to understand--not just a clear voice-print that dictation software could translate automatically into text in the way that Grasshopper does with a voicemail message.

-Kane























Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

 

Cindy Ray,

           You are entitled to your anger, which is justifiable, but not to your assertion that Captchas value at thwarting hackers is "dubious at best."  They functioned (and function) brilliantly at preventing machine-based attacks of all sorts.  They were and are a brilliant idea that had "the law of unintended consequences" attached.  They've also been modified with audio, at least genuine Captcha captchas have, due to accessibility concerns.

           Gerald's assertion is dubious, at best, as advocacy from individuals and groups is precisely what has driven the changes that have already occurred and continue to occur.  When it comes down to it the old adage, "It's not all about you," (and that's for the generic you) applies here.  Businesses and entities are only trying to protect themselves and their assets, and, by extension, their clients.  There is no malicious intent and there is far more awareness, and responsiveness, with regard to accessibility issues when those are identified.

           There is no "one size fits all" solution to any problem, and there is no utility in creating a completely permeable barrier when a partial barrier is actually needed.  Input from those negatively affected is an incredibly valuable and necessary part of working through some issues that really had not been anticipated.


Re: Is There a Way For Me to Change...

Lisle, Ted (CHFS DMS)
 

I guess you could cheat if you know how to manipulate the old DOS Date command.  Just set your system back, resave the file, and reset the date back to the current date.  It may not work, and I can’t see why anyone would want to do it, but that’s the best I can come up with on short notice.

 

Ted

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Sunday, December 27, 2015 12:15 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Is There a Way For Me to Change...

 

Date created cannot be changed through any easy means since it's meant to denote when file was actually created.  What gets shown by default in the generic "date" field in Windows Explorer is not date created, but date modified.  Any time a file is edited by any program that makes any changes that get saved the date modified will be updated.  Date created remains fixed at the date the file was created on the system.

You get some interesting results when you copy files with regard to these two dates.  The copied versions will have a date created of the date & time when you pasted them.  However, their date modified will be carried over from the original files, so you can have something that shows a date created of today but a date modified of three years ago.

Brian


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

Cindy Ray <cindyray@...>
 

Gerald, do you belong to a blind advocacy group? Either one of them? It is pretty amazing to make a statement like this if you don't: And the reason this situation exists in the first place is that the blindness advocacy groups which are supposed to look out for our best interests have shown absolutely no willingness to challenge online sellers who insist on confronting their customers, blind and sighted alike, with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best.
We who are blind are all responsible for helping to make the changes. Much change has been made; some of this issue has been worked on as well. Probably the reason for audio captchas has something to do with blind advocacy groups. I don't for the life understand how people self-righteously make statements like this, yet they are not willing to stand with us and work on the problems.
Cindy

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy [mailto:bwaylimited@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 8:35 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?


And the reason this situation exists in the first place is that the blindness advocacy groups which are supposed to look out for our best interests have shown absolutely no willingness to challenge online sellers who insist on confronting their customers, blind and sighted alike, with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best.

Gerald



-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:18 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

And the only people excluded from making the statement they're human by identifying a captia are the blind. Sounds like a totally messed up system but we're still captive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ray [mailto:cindyray@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 8:42 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

No, it isn't proof enough maybe, but it is one of the stones to barriers.
There is no such thing as 100% safe.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron [mailto:jbron@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 7:36 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

I have been following this thread and still the question I have about captias for ages is still not answered. We have criminal minds who spend their time messing up people's lives by hacking their information via their on line accounts and stealing their identity. We have folks who steal people's address books and try to extort money from their family and friends. We are supposed to recognize an image so we can prove we're human and not robots. What can someone sitting on the other end of a computer in srilanka know about my status as a human being if I can tell him what some captia reads? If they would create the captias so we could read them back character by character problem solved, but that isn't proof enough that we're not devious. Judith

-----Original Message-----
From: Kane Brolin [mailto:kbrolin65@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 8:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

It will be a while before CAPTCHAs are stopped. This might happen, once compatibility with mobile browsing becomes a universal standard.
But the provider of online info related to my Visa card, for example, requires me to verify a CAPTCHA every time I sign in. Not just to change account settings or to do some other specialized or sensitive task--just to log in to check my points!

The muddy/hard-to-understand nature of the audio CAPTCHA is the whole point.
They want something that requires subjective, human perception to understand--not just a clear voice-print that dictation software could translate automatically into text in the way that Grasshopper does with a voicemail message.

-Kane


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

 

Judith,

            I will do my best to explain the function of Captchas as a security mechanism and some of the "side benefits" that have been derived from them.

            Captchas work extremely well in differentiating human beings from robots (mostly spambots).  The technology is evolving, and there is actually a move away from the conventional Captcha, but it's happening slowly.  Originally, virtually every Captcha text you would be presented with was literally scanned from old books and was usually two words.  These were words that were difficult to read and there was controversy about what they actually were, but only regarding a letter or two.  Having millions of humans see these, and give their typewritten responses as to what they were, gave researchers a way to narrow down what these words probably are as more and more people leaned toward a given answer.  They are excellent for preventing robots from using them like humans (sighted ones, anyway) do because they are not characters displayed in a way that technology can just skim off and spit back out, thus they prevent automated registrations and various sorts of automated attacks by programs.   The same idea carries over to the recordings used if you can't see these items.  They're not meant to be crystal clear because there does exist speech recognition software that can easily take "clean" recordings and translate them to the necessary text.  It's only humans that can hear recordings that have imperfections such as those that characterize old records with their pops and cracks (among other distractions) and zero in on what's signal (what they want you to type) and what's noise.

            Captchas, at least the ones that are actual Captchas, do not require that you give "the correct answer" but just one that's "correct enough."  The very nature of the beast is such that there is ambiguity about certain parts of the image, and so long as the response is unambiguous about the characters that are unambiguous, but could be anything for the characters that are ambiguous, the test is passed.  It really was a brilliant way to separate the human from the computerized intruder.  The addition of the audio portion was done after the light bulb went off that the blind and visually impaired are never going to be reading Captchas from the scanned images, but the audio is meant to be at least somewhat ambiguous as well for precisely the same reasons.

            I'm not trying to defend Captchas from an accessibility standpoint here.  But, contrary to your assertions, they are very, very, very effective at differentiating humans from robot programs and if you think about some of the places where you're encountering them you will see why that might be a security priority at that particular juncture.

            Security features are designed to be barriers.  What they ideally should not be are accessibility barriers.  If you go to the official website of the "classic Captcha" and click on anything you are immediately redirected to Google's site for the new reCaptcha (which, by the way, I'd really wonder if it is accessible by design, as it should be) where the next generation of the technology, which does not require any reading, but is "point and click" in a way that remains confusing to machines but quite clear to humans (and I think to screen readers, too).  I've seen lots of reCaptchas already.  This may let you know that what's coming next is better, or let you start complaining (and legitimately) about accessibility issues ahead of the broader use of this technology.

Brian


Re: How to Make JAWS Speak When the Value of a Field Changes?

Richard B. McDonald
 

No, the fields themselves do not move on the screen, they are fixed.

-----Original Message-----
From: Mario [mailto:mrb620@hotmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 10:57 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: How to Make JAWS Speak When the Value of a Field Changes?

do these fields move around while the value changes?
of course the numlock should be off when trying these:
did you try insert+numpad 7, insert+numpad 8, insert+numpad 9,
insert+tab or insert+up arrow?


On 1/5/2016 1:04 PM, Richard B. McDonald wrote:
Hi!

I use a program that has fields that contain numeric values. These
values periodically change based on information received by the
program from a ham radio which the program is monitoring. Presently,
I have to tab into the field, and then the value can be read by JAWS.
How can I make JAWS report the value of these fields each time they
change instead of having to tab into the field?

Thanks,

Richard


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

judith bron
 

Agreed

-----Original Message-----
From: Gerald Levy [mailto:bwaylimited@verizon.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:35 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?


And the reason this situation exists in the first place is that the blindness advocacy groups which are supposed to look out for our best interests have shown absolutely no willingness to challenge online sellers who insist on confronting their customers, blind and sighted alike, with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best.

Gerald



-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:18 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

And the only people excluded from making the statement they're human by identifying a captia are the blind. Sounds like a totally messed up system but we're still captive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ray [mailto:cindyray@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 8:42 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

No, it isn't proof enough maybe, but it is one of the stones to barriers.
There is no such thing as 100% safe.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron [mailto:jbron@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 7:36 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

I have been following this thread and still the question I have about captias for ages is still not answered. We have criminal minds who spend their time messing up people's lives by hacking their information via their on line accounts and stealing their identity. We have folks who steal people's address books and try to extort money from their family and friends. We are supposed to recognize an image so we can prove we're human and not robots. What can someone sitting on the other end of a computer in srilanka know about my status as a human being if I can tell him what some captia reads? If they would create the captias so we could read them back character by character problem solved, but that isn't proof enough that we're not devious. Judith

-----Original Message-----
From: Kane Brolin [mailto:kbrolin65@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 8:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

It will be a while before CAPTCHAs are stopped. This might happen, once compatibility with mobile browsing becomes a universal standard.
But the provider of online info related to my Visa card, for example, requires me to verify a CAPTCHA every time I sign in. Not just to change account settings or to do some other specialized or sensitive task--just to log in to check my points!

The muddy/hard-to-understand nature of the audio CAPTCHA is the whole point.
They want something that requires subjective, human perception to understand--not just a clear voice-print that dictation software could translate automatically into text in the way that Grasshopper does with a voicemail message.

-Kane


Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

Gerald Levy
 

And the reason this situation exists in the first place is that the blindness advocacy groups which are supposed to look out for our best interests have shown absolutely no willingness to challenge online sellers who insist on confronting their customers, blind and sighted alike, with image captchas whose value at thwarting hackers is dubious at best.

Gerald

-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 9:18 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

And the only people excluded from making the statement they're human by identifying a captia are the blind. Sounds like a totally messed up system but we're still captive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Cindy Ray [mailto:cindyray@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2016 8:42 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

No, it isn't proof enough maybe, but it is one of the stones to barriers. There is no such thing as 100% safe.
Cindy


-----Original Message-----
From: judith bron [mailto:jbron@optonline.net]
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2016 7:36 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

I have been following this thread and still the question I have about captias for ages is still not answered. We have criminal minds who spend their time messing up people's lives by hacking their information via their on line accounts and stealing their identity. We have folks who steal people's address books and try to extort money from their family and friends. We are supposed to recognize an image so we can prove we're human and not robots. What can someone sitting on the other end of a computer in srilanka know about my status as a human being if I can tell him what some captia reads? If they would create the captias so we could read them back character by character problem solved, but that isn't proof enough that we're not devious. Judith

-----Original Message-----
From: Kane Brolin [mailto:kbrolin65@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 05, 2016 8:34 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: What is the issue with Captchas?

It will be a while before CAPTCHAs are stopped. This might happen, once compatibility with mobile browsing becomes a universal standard.
But the provider of online info related to my Visa card, for example, requires me to verify a CAPTCHA every time I sign in. Not just to change account settings or to do some other specialized or sensitive task--just to log in to check my points!

The muddy/hard-to-understand nature of the audio CAPTCHA is the whole point. They want something that requires subjective, human perception to understand--not just a clear voice-print that dictation software could translate automatically into text in the way that Grasshopper does with a voicemail message.

-Kane


Re: Need Steps For Updating Internet Explorer

 

Tom,

            Given your concern about your favorites, and even though I believe these are preserved as part of a version update, you should back them up first.  Presuing that Microsoft hasn't changed the menu structure (I only have IE11) you do this via the File menu, import and export option.

             Next you will go to the Microsoft page for Internet Explorer Download.  The page is automatically set up to check your system for the version you have and to present you with the download button for the latest version that will run on your system.  If memory serves, clicking that button will initiate the entire update process, which I'm sure includes download, dialog boxes once the upgrade starts, etc.

             IE11, like most browsers these days, does not display the menu bar by default.  Presuming you want that back on a permanent basis.  Hit Alt to bring up the menu bar for temporary display.  Under the View menu choose the Toolbars item and then check Menu Bar in the sidebar of items that comes up when you have chosen menu bar.

             I hope this is enough to at least let you take a swing at this.  I've done this upgrade many times but I haven't done it in a while and I loathe Internet Explorer, so I don't use it or do this on a routine enough basis to remember each and every tiny step in the actual upgrade process itself.

Brian