Date   

Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

Adrian Spratt
 

Brian,

 

I appreciate all this clarification. On your last point, for the record, I believe automatic forms mode is one of FS’s several recent false enhancements. I had that setting for a long time, and it can be convenient to have JAWS land in an edit field of a website where the first thing I need to do is enter a username, etc. However, it causes more problems than the conveniences it provides. And, as you indicate, “automatic’ and “mode” are oxymorons.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 3:03 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Adrian,

       Thanks for the feedback.

        I hasten to add that the very nature, and length (in virtually all cases), of my tutoring involves by its very nature getting a user familiar with a very wide range of JAWS functions and comfort using them.  What I was trying to get at earlier is that the nature of my clients needs is such that I would feel like a fool and dictator were I to walk in and take a "lesson plan" approach where I declare something along the lines of, "tonight we're going to work on web browsing," when their latest crisis du jour was with using JAWS with MS-Word.   I follow the direction that the client's immediate needs take us for that session, but I do not limit myself to them if/when those needs have been addressed and the spontaneous teachable (and, I hasten to add, learnable for me) moments occur in each and every session such that a lot of territory gets covered.   What's funny for me is that when I'm working with multiple clients during the same time frame it can become confusing not only in regard to what I've taught who, which we can resolve quickly, but also in regard to what I can actually pull up immediately in my mind regarding JAWS.  It is, in many ways, a PITA that I am not an actual JAWS user because I can never establish the kind of fluency that a real user does.   That being the case I also tell my clients that while I am always willing to re-cover any territory, I am relying on them to keep building on what we've already done and that I may have to ask them on many occasions, "What's the command to do action X again?," because it's dropped out of my commands in current circulation in my mind cycle.   I'm constantly having to relearn things because all skills are "use it or lose it" and I just don't, and never will, need to use JAWS to the extent that it becomes "like breathing" for me.

I also listen to JAWS with great regularity, and teach my clients to do the same, because that's very often the only way I and they can know "where JAWS is" at a given moment in time.  I, however, have the option of ignoring JAWS during lessons where the individual is in the midst of performing the well-known things they do, which are always somewhere as a part of any lesson, and they don't.  I also failed to make clear that when JAWS drives me crazy is when I'm trying to do something along the lines of technical support where I'm installing software, removing software, adding peripherals, etc., that the client will likely never do or want to do (if they express the interest then it is a teachable moment, and then the paradigm shifts).  When I've got something that's tangential to the lesson, but essential nonetheless to their life in general, like installing a new printer, I either exit JAWS entirely or use INS+Spacebar, followed by S to hush him or her (I tend to refer to JAWS in the moment as him or her based on the voice the client uses) up.

As to forms mode, I get that in the abstract but since JAWS drops into and out of forms mode automatically (at least by default), I had not realized that was happening.  Mode, as a term, for me means that one must always be manually responsible for toggling the state to get in to or out of that mode.  Private correspondence has allowed me to understand that my usual definition of how a mode works is how JAWS once worked, but that now the default is automatic, and that some prefer to turn that automatic feature off and go back to mode control being under their control.

Brian


Re: Can someone please tell me whether there are jaws scripts for kendle for pc!

Mario
 

I don't think so, but someone else might prove me wrong.

On 12/31/2015 2:22 PM, David Ingram wrote:
Hi list members I'm using jaws 16 and I'd like to know for sure if there are
jaws scripts for kindle for pc? Where can I find them and how much are they
if there is a cost associated with them? I can be reached at
dingram269@... <mailto:dingram269@...> . I am using
windows 7 professional 64 bit on an amd processor. Thank you for any
information that you might have.


Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

Mike B <mb69mach1@...>
 


Hi Adrian,
 
Just to add to what you've said, there's another mode to the applications key keystroke, it's called extended context menu keystroke, that can give you other options like, Copy Path, depending on when it's used, by invoking either the, shift +F10 or, shift + application key keystroke.  This is available in Windows 7 but, I don't know if it's available in Windows 10.
 
Take care.
Mike

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 11:43 AM
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

Brian,

 

I agree, it’s essential that JAWS users know about the right-mouse click option. Usually, the choices that come up in that menu are identical to those you obtain by pressing the applications key, but not always. Once in a while, the right-mouse click menu provides the only solution to an accessibility problem.

 

Separately, I have done some informal JAWS training, and I partially disagree with the idea that a trainer should focus only on those issues a client wants resolved. Even if a client lists a set of tasks they would like to learn, it’s still important to establish a degree of JAWS familiarity. Once established, you can build from that foundation so that the client learns not only the keystrokes for a specific task, but also how to solve similar problems as they arise going forward. It’s the old saying that goes something like you can give someone a fish or you can teach them how to fish.

 

I haven’t followed these threads in any detail, but I notice your seeming perplexity about forms mode. I take it you understand that this is a JAWS device to solve the problem that JAWS users can’t just land on an edit field and type. Forms mode enables the user to make it possible to type when you land on an edit field.

 

Finally, while it’s no doubt useful to be able to see a screen to see why certain JAWS problems might be occurring, I would think it’s essential for a trainer to learn to listen to JAWS as it performs.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 1:12 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Kevin,

        Thanks for your input.   I just want to hasten to add that my motivation for "forcing" the occasional use of the mouse buttons is not, in any way, because I think that any given method is the "right" one, but sometimes there really is a "best" one.

        A number of my clients have expressed utter amazement when I teach them about the presence of the context menu that pops up anywhere (pretty much) when you right click on anything that can be operated on in some way and that this menu restricts you to the actual things you can do to that actual object.  It saves so much menu arrow-through time (and I'm amazed how many of my clients cling to using arrow-through even after they know the "you can type the first letter of the function you're searching for to speed your way down the menu" technique).  It also avoids, almost entirely, the presence of stippled-out options that cannot be selected at the moment because they do not fit the actual context of the moment, but must be in a general-purpose full menu anyway.

        All of the above having been said, if anyone detects what they feel is even the slightest whiff of condescension or trying to "force blind people to do something the sighted way" in my posts or descriptions of how I tutor, please let me know about this directly, but kindly.   That is absolutely never my intention, but unintentional paternalism, rudeness, or slights are as bad or worse than intentional ones.   Just realize that any of these are occurring out of ignorance, not malice.

Brian


Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Adrian,

       Thanks for the feedback.

        I hasten to add that the very nature, and length (in virtually all cases), of my tutoring involves by its very nature getting a user familiar with a very wide range of JAWS functions and comfort using them.  What I was trying to get at earlier is that the nature of my clients needs is such that I would feel like a fool and dictator were I to walk in and take a "lesson plan" approach where I declare something along the lines of, "tonight we're going to work on web browsing," when their latest crisis du jour was with using JAWS with MS-Word.   I follow the direction that the client's immediate needs take us for that session, but I do not limit myself to them if/when those needs have been addressed and the spontaneous teachable (and, I hasten to add, learnable for me) moments occur in each and every session such that a lot of territory gets covered.   What's funny for me is that when I'm working with multiple clients during the same time frame it can become confusing not only in regard to what I've taught who, which we can resolve quickly, but also in regard to what I can actually pull up immediately in my mind regarding JAWS.  It is, in many ways, a PITA that I am not an actual JAWS user because I can never establish the kind of fluency that a real user does.   That being the case I also tell my clients that while I am always willing to re-cover any territory, I am relying on them to keep building on what we've already done and that I may have to ask them on many occasions, "What's the command to do action X again?," because it's dropped out of my commands in current circulation in my mind cycle.   I'm constantly having to relearn things because all skills are "use it or lose it" and I just don't, and never will, need to use JAWS to the extent that it becomes "like breathing" for me.

I also listen to JAWS with great regularity, and teach my clients to do the same, because that's very often the only way I and they can know "where JAWS is" at a given moment in time.  I, however, have the option of ignoring JAWS during lessons where the individual is in the midst of performing the well-known things they do, which are always somewhere as a part of any lesson, and they don't.  I also failed to make clear that when JAWS drives me crazy is when I'm trying to do something along the lines of technical support where I'm installing software, removing software, adding peripherals, etc., that the client will likely never do or want to do (if they express the interest then it is a teachable moment, and then the paradigm shifts).  When I've got something that's tangential to the lesson, but essential nonetheless to their life in general, like installing a new printer, I either exit JAWS entirely or use INS+Spacebar, followed by S to hush him or her (I tend to refer to JAWS in the moment as him or her based on the voice the client uses) up.

As to forms mode, I get that in the abstract but since JAWS drops into and out of forms mode automatically (at least by default), I had not realized that was happening.  Mode, as a term, for me means that one must always be manually responsible for toggling the state to get in to or out of that mode.  Private correspondence has allowed me to understand that my usual definition of how a mode works is how JAWS once worked, but that now the default is automatic, and that some prefer to turn that automatic feature off and go back to mode control being under their control.

Brian


Re: Catalyn Problem Solved

Maria Campbell
 

JAWS may voice all kinds of strange things, based on the type of fonts, scripts, etc., it encounters.
I can't imagine what Tom used to get JAWS to behave the way it did, but sighted people like to use fancy styles of writing that JAWS may have a hard time interpreting. Some days I hear the word "unicode" in front of every paragraph in an email, but not today, of course. Or I may hear the word "western" as soon as I open an email. There is always some one who needs to know the type of font, script, color of test and so on, but for the most part, we just want to hear the text in plain English. I can imagine the difficulty in trying to get a program to consistently be and do everything for everyone, and not get confused from time to time.

On 12/31/2015 12:22 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Tom, just for my curiosity, do you have any idea what JAWS was detecting
that it thought was in the Catalan dialect of Spanish? This seems
really odd since my presumption is that the documents in question are
not in any form of Spanish (and on that I could be entirely wrong).

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


Re: Catalan Problem Solved

Adrian Spratt
 

Agreed, if a word common to several languages must in context be English, a language detection program won’t identify it as foreign. That’s why I chose “und” as an example. It isn’t an English word.

 

Admittedly, the odd thing about Tom’s case is that only Catalan came up, or so it seems.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 2:38 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Catalan Problem Solved

 

Adrian,

          But wouldn't you think that JAWS would be coded to be smart enough to use context to recognize whether something was simply misspelled versus jumping on the "it's in another language" bandwagon?   Since English is one of the worst "stealers of words" and absorbing them into the language unchanged from their original spellings, it would be mighty dangerous to use anything like a single word for a language detection function.

Brian


Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

Adrian Spratt
 

Brian,

 

I agree, it’s essential that JAWS users know about the right-mouse click option. Usually, the choices that come up in that menu are identical to those you obtain by pressing the applications key, but not always. Once in a while, the right-mouse click menu provides the only solution to an accessibility problem.

 

Separately, I have done some informal JAWS training, and I partially disagree with the idea that a trainer should focus only on those issues a client wants resolved. Even if a client lists a set of tasks they would like to learn, it’s still important to establish a degree of JAWS familiarity. Once established, you can build from that foundation so that the client learns not only the keystrokes for a specific task, but also how to solve similar problems as they arise going forward. It’s the old saying that goes something like you can give someone a fish or you can teach them how to fish.

 

I haven’t followed these threads in any detail, but I notice your seeming perplexity about forms mode. I take it you understand that this is a JAWS device to solve the problem that JAWS users can’t just land on an edit field and type. Forms mode enables the user to make it possible to type when you land on an edit field.

 

Finally, while it’s no doubt useful to be able to see a screen to see why certain JAWS problems might be occurring, I would think it’s essential for a trainer to learn to listen to JAWS as it performs.

 

Just some thoughts.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 1:12 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Kevin,

        Thanks for your input.   I just want to hasten to add that my motivation for "forcing" the occasional use of the mouse buttons is not, in any way, because I think that any given method is the "right" one, but sometimes there really is a "best" one.

        A number of my clients have expressed utter amazement when I teach them about the presence of the context menu that pops up anywhere (pretty much) when you right click on anything that can be operated on in some way and that this menu restricts you to the actual things you can do to that actual object.  It saves so much menu arrow-through time (and I'm amazed how many of my clients cling to using arrow-through even after they know the "you can type the first letter of the function you're searching for to speed your way down the menu" technique).  It also avoids, almost entirely, the presence of stippled-out options that cannot be selected at the moment because they do not fit the actual context of the moment, but must be in a general-purpose full menu anyway.

        All of the above having been said, if anyone detects what they feel is even the slightest whiff of condescension or trying to "force blind people to do something the sighted way" in my posts or descriptions of how I tutor, please let me know about this directly, but kindly.   That is absolutely never my intention, but unintentional paternalism, rudeness, or slights are as bad or worse than intentional ones.   Just realize that any of these are occurring out of ignorance, not malice.

Brian


Re: Catalan Problem Solved

 

Adrian,

          But wouldn't you think that JAWS would be coded to be smart enough to use context to recognize whether something was simply misspelled versus jumping on the "it's in another language" bandwagon?   Since English is one of the worst "stealers of words" and absorbing them into the language unchanged from their original spellings, it would be mighty dangerous to use anything like a single word for a language detection function.

Brian


Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

Maria Campbell
 

Brian, I'm so glad to see you teach your clients to use the menus, rather than just teaching the short cut keys to get around. An unfortunate friend of mine was only taught short cut keys. In my humble opinion that limits the possibilities/options one encounters when exploring the menus, rather than just being exposed to the very specific actions of shortcut keys. Continual use of an application eventually and naturally does result in the memorization of shortcut keys anyway.
I pretty much have taught myself how to use the PC, listening to, and reading anything I can get my hands on, as long as it isn't too technical for my understanding.

On 12/31/2015 12:12 PM, Brian Vogel wrote:
Kevin,

Thanks for your input. I just want to hasten to add that my
motivation for "forcing" the occasional use of the mouse buttons is not,
in any way, because I think that any given method is the "right" one,
but sometimes there really is a "best" one.

A number of my clients have expressed utter amazement when I
teach them about the presence of the context menu that pops up anywhere
(pretty much) when you right click on anything that can be operated on
in some way and that this menu restricts you to the actual things you
can do to that actual object. It saves so much menu arrow-through time
(and I'm amazed how many of my clients cling to using arrow-through even
after they know the "you can type the first letter of the function
you're searching for to speed your way down the menu" technique). It
also avoids, almost entirely, the presence of stippled-out options that
cannot be selected at the moment because they do not fit the actual
context of the moment, but must be in a general-purpose full menu anyway.

All of the above having been said, if anyone detects what they
feel is even the slightest whiff of condescension or trying to "force
blind people to do something the sighted way" in my posts or
descriptions of how I tutor, please let me know about this directly, but
kindly. That is absolutely never my intention, but unintentional
paternalism, rudeness, or slights are as bad or worse than intentional
ones. Just realize that any of these are occurring out of ignorance,
not malice.

Brian

--

Sunny Day
Maria Campbell
lucky1@...

Be patient with God: Be patient with yourself: Be patient with others.


Re: Catalan Problem Solved

Adrian Spratt
 

The behavior isn’t so odd. You would think something like this would happen that any time you misspell an English word so that it comes out as a foreign word. For example, if you wrote “and” with a u instead of an a, you’d have the German word “und.” Presumably, language detection would pick up on that. What surprises me is that it doesn’t happen more often.

 

I’ve changed the subject line to the correct spelling of the language spoken in Barcelona.

 

From: Brian Vogel [mailto:britechguy@...]
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 1:22 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Catalyn Problem Solved

 

Tom, just for my curiosity, do you have any idea what JAWS was detecting that it thought was in the Catalan dialect of Spanish?   This seems really odd since my presumption is that the documents in question are not in any form of Spanish (and on that I could be entirely wrong).

Brian


Re: JAWS-accessible list of UEB changes

Ann Byrne
 

National Braille press has a document, for free, listing the changes.

At 01:13 PM 12/31/2015, you wrote:
Hello Adrian,
I did receive a braille paper copy of all the changes from the CNIB library; perhaps a check with your local braille library may prove fruitful.
Happy New Year,
Kevin.

From: Adrian Spratt [mailto:Adrian@...]
Sent: December-31-15 3:01 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: JAWS-accessible list of UEB changes

I've just tried to find information via Google about the changes to braille that I understand go into effect in 2016, but I encountered all kinds of problems accessing the documents with JAWS. In some cases, the information must be presented as diagrams, rather than, for example, listing specific dot configurations. In other cases, unbelievably, organizations for assisting visually impaired people presented the details in PDF files that came up as "empty documents" and that Convenient OCR couldn't convert.

I don't have a braille device connected to my PC, so a braille file won't help.

Can anyone direct me to online resources that lists the changes in screenreader-accessible form?

Thanks.


Re: Can someone please tell me whether there are jaws scripts for kendle for pc!

Mich Verrier
 

there are no jaws scripts for kindle for pc. the program works with out scripts since any books that say text to speech inabled you will be able to read wtih kindle for pc since it has a text to speech engion. from Mich.

----- Original Message -----
Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 2:22 PM
Subject: Can someone please tell me whether there are jaws scripts for kendle for pc!

Hi list members I’m using jaws 16 and I’d like to know for sure if there are jaws scripts for kindle for pc?  Where can I find them and how much are they if there is a cost associated with them?  I can be reached at dingram269@....  I am using windows 7 professional 64 bit on an amd processor.  Thank you for any information that you might have.


Can someone please tell me whether there are jaws scripts for kendle for pc!

David Ingram
 

Hi list members I’m using jaws 16 and I’d like to know for sure if there are jaws scripts for kindle for pc?  Where can I find them and how much are they if there is a cost associated with them?  I can be reached at dingram269@....  I am using windows 7 professional 64 bit on an amd processor.  Thank you for any information that you might have.


Re: JAWS-accessible list of UEB changes

Kevin Hourigan <kevinthourigan@...>
 

Hello Adrian,

I did receive a braille paper copy of all the changes from the CNIB library; perhaps a check with your local braille library may prove fruitful.

Happy New Year,

Kevin.

 

From: Adrian Spratt [mailto:Adrian@...]
Sent: December-31-15 3:01 AM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: JAWS-accessible list of UEB changes

 

I’ve just tried to find information via Google about the changes to braille that I understand go into effect in 2016, but I encountered all kinds of problems accessing the documents with JAWS. In some cases, the information must be presented as diagrams, rather than, for example, listing specific dot configurations. In other cases, unbelievably, organizations for assisting visually impaired people presented the details in PDF files that came up as “empty documents” and that Convenient OCR couldn’t convert.

 

I don’t have a braille device connected to my PC, so a braille file won’t help.

 

Can anyone direct me to online resources that lists the changes in screenreader-accessible form?

 

Thanks.


Re: Catalyn Problem Solved

 

Tom, just for my curiosity, do you have any idea what JAWS was detecting that it thought was in the Catalan dialect of Spanish?   This seems really odd since my presumption is that the documents in question are not in any form of Spanish (and on that I could be entirely wrong).

Brian


Re: Google Drive/Docs

 

David,

          For my edification, what is "focus mode," exactly?   I don't think I've ever heard that term used and I have no idea what that means.  Of course, I had no idea what Forms Mode meant, either, since it's been in "On by Default" mode in all the versions of JAWS I've touched over the last several years, but actually knew how to use it thinking what I was doing was using the Quick Navigation Keys (since a great many overlap).

          Thanks in advance.

Brian


Re: Google drive/docs

 

Sally,

         I hope that Google has coded this webpage with accessibility in mind (and I know I'm not David, too), but try this Google Support page entitled, Keyboard Shortcuts for Google Drive on the Web.


Re: Are there any NVDA (or WindowEyes) and JAWS "dual users" or people who've used both here?

 

Kevin,

        Thanks for your input.   I just want to hasten to add that my motivation for "forcing" the occasional use of the mouse buttons is not, in any way, because I think that any given method is the "right" one, but sometimes there really is a "best" one.

        A number of my clients have expressed utter amazement when I teach them about the presence of the context menu that pops up anywhere (pretty much) when you right click on anything that can be operated on in some way and that this menu restricts you to the actual things you can do to that actual object.  It saves so much menu arrow-through time (and I'm amazed how many of my clients cling to using arrow-through even after they know the "you can type the first letter of the function you're searching for to speed your way down the menu" technique).  It also avoids, almost entirely, the presence of stippled-out options that cannot be selected at the moment because they do not fit the actual context of the moment, but must be in a general-purpose full menu anyway.

        All of the above having been said, if anyone detects what they feel is even the slightest whiff of condescension or trying to "force blind people to do something the sighted way" in my posts or descriptions of how I tutor, please let me know about this directly, but kindly.   That is absolutely never my intention, but unintentional paternalism, rudeness, or slights are as bad or worse than intentional ones.   Just realize that any of these are occurring out of ignorance, not malice.

Brian


Re: JAWS-accessible list of UEB changes

Dave Mitchell
 

Sorry Members, delete this as the note below is for Adrian.
Adrian, my provider has your account in what they call their ‘white list’ as an authorized e mail correspondent and things are operating normally for me as far as I can determine.
Happy New Year to all, Mitch
 

Sent: Thursday, December 31, 2015 4:01 AM
Subject: JAWS-accessible list of UEB changes
 

I’ve just tried to find information via Google about the changes to braille that I understand go into effect in 2016, but I encountered all kinds of problems accessing the documents with JAWS. In some cases, the information must be presented as diagrams, rather than, for example, listing specific dot configurations. In other cases, unbelievably, organizations for assisting visually impaired people presented the details in PDF files that came up as “empty documents” and that Convenient OCR couldn’t convert.

 

I don’t have a braille device connected to my PC, so a braille file won’t help.

 

Can anyone direct me to online resources that lists the changes in screenreader-accessible form?

 

Thanks.


Re: Catalyn Problem Solved

Ann Byrne
 

Hurray! The strange thing is that I had a hard time finding the language detect change item. It wasn't in the places where I thought it should be. Glad it solved the problem.

At 10:18 AM 12/31/2015, you wrote:
Ann:

Your suggested strategy worked to get rid of my Catalan problem.

Thanks so much!

It was really annoying to hear this in many document headings.

I'll save these steps for future reference.

For those who need them, the steps from Ann are below.

Tom Behler




-----Original Message-----
From: Ann Byrne [mailto:annakb@...]
Sent: Wednesday, December 30, 2015 8:28 PM
To: jfw@groups.io
Subject: Re: Catelyn

While in Word Try
1. insert+v, quick settings.
2. type 'lang' and arrow down to language detect change.
Be sure it is unchecked.