moderated Re: From Freedom Scientific: Freedom Scientific is extending the Free Home-Use Software For Those Affected by COVID-19

Patrick Murphy <murphy.patrick42@...>

Well said Adrian!!!


I understand, to some degree, that there are various laws and such things in other countries that may cause companies to change their sales models.

However, I do not pretend to understand in great detail.

I am sure, that a good many of you out there, have a much better understanding of this type of thing, as you may have more exposure to it through your businesses etc.

Take for example Netflix. They have different content in different parts of the world. However, this is due to copyright problems.

Freedom scientific owns jaws. There is no copyright issue here that I can see.

How they choose to sell it is their prerogative.

As I understand it, there should be no problem using the same licencing model in the u.s. as anywhere else.

Maybe this is not the case though.

However, the aim of any company is to attract new customers. Given the problems with jaws2020, and there would seem to be a good few, given the various messages on this forum, they should be doing everything they can to attract/keep their customers.

Add to that, the expense of upgrading/buying the product, as I have said before.

Lack of testing also is an issue. We have seen problems with basic windows apps in windows 10.

I have used the example of Netflix before. Huge company, no testing.

Also, I have seen recent posts on this forum about facebook. Again, lack of testing.

Before someone jumps all over me, I realize, that not everything can be tested with jaws.

However, large apps that are out there should be, if you want to sell a quality product.

I also realize, that things such as facebook and Netflix can change their layout, which can lead to accessibility problems.

However, if you are releasing several updates a year, why not keep an eye on the big companies?

Surely, Netflix and facebook for example would love to say that they were completely accessible?

However, that would mean freedom scientific having to work directly with those companies.

They cannot even get it right with windows 10 for god sake.

Personally, I have been in touch with Netflix in Ireland, and was told, that they would love to work with companies in relation to accessibility, but they had received no such offers. Obviously, I cannot say that this is completely true.

Given that freedom scientific are the market leader, there is a lot of wind blowing about from them, but very little substance when it comes to improvement.

In Ireland, I cannot get support directly from them. I have to go through sight and sound in the u.k.

Nine times out of ten, they don’t know what they are looking at in terms of problems.

In fact, when I had the authorization problem with 2020, it was one of you good people that were able to explain it to me.

Sight and sound hadn’t a clue!!!

Freedom scientific really need to look at what they are producing, and where exactly they think their customer base is going to be in the future.

Greed and disregard for your customers will come back to bite you eventually.

To anyone reading this, I am extremely sorry for the ranting!!!

Its just, that I have had enough of this type of thing. I pay a fortune for upgrades, only to suffer from authorization problems, crashes etc, and can get no help other than from you helpful and kindly people.

So much so, that shortly, I will probably abandon jaws in favour of nvda. This is open source, costs nothing, and the suggestions given by its users are actually taken seriously.


Kind regards,



From: [] On Behalf Of Adrian Spratt
Sent: Thursday 18 June 2020 13:27
Subject: Re: From Freedom Scientific: Freedom Scientific is extending the Free Home-Use Software For Those Affected by COVID-19




No question, Vispero has done a good deed by making its software available for free to Americans and extending a 20% discount for subsequent purchases during this phase of the pandemic. But it makes sense for people who feel excluded from the offer to resent it.


Since this issue has aroused interest on this list and I've been urged to support my previous post, here goes.


As Brian wrote so emphatically, Vispero/freedom Scientific is not a charity. It follows that they didn't give away temporary free use of their software for purely altruistic reasons. Presumably, they hope to attract new customers, and they hope to retain those customers by offering a 20% discount once the "free" offer expires. But it's this relationship between a seller and its customers that makes demands by excluded customers completely reasonable even—actually, above all—in what Brian insists is a capitalist model. Customers have every right to ask to be included. I'm not sure why anyone would lash out at them.


The word "capitalism" comes from "capital." As Adam Smith, considered the father of capitalism explained, family businesses had been unable to grow from generation to generation. It was only when they gained access to third-party financing that they could expand, hire people outside the family and thus improve quality of life for society in general. At least, that was the theory, and it makes sense so long as government provided a safety net for those unable to participate fully in the capitalist model. Smith understood and advocated this role of government. It's the part of his capitalist model that notoriously got overlooked for a very long time.


Vispero and similar accessibility businesses would not exist were it not for the Americans with Disabilities Act. Through the ADA, Congress put the law and governmental resources behind the movement to enable disabled people to participate fully in society. To this end, government combined with businesses to advance a social objective along Smith's capitalist lines.


Nations around the world have adopted laws similar to our ADA. Since Vispero says it operates in ninety countries, we would expect its policies to be consistent, the way they are here in the U.S. While Vispero is not a charity, it is participating in a broad social movement backed by the law and government policy.


But even if you don't accept a reciprocal relationship between a business's mission and social policies, I go back to my original point. What is wrong with a Vispero customer in New Zealand, Canada or elsewhere speaking up for treatment similar to what Vispero provides Americans? Like any business, Vispero ultimately depends on the goodwill of its customers. Think of all the companies around the world currently issuing statements in support of Black Lives Matter and, to take a specific instance, Quaker Foods elimination of the Aunt Jemimah brand because of its racist connotations. You don't have to agree with these actions to see how social movements affect customer relations.

I didn't understand the harsh rejection of posts from non-Americans urging similar treatment by Vispero in their countries. Their posts made perfect sense from both business and philosophical points of view. That's why I felt compelled to post.


From: <> On Behalf Of Cristóbal
Sent: Thursday, June 18, 2020 12:06 AM
Subject: Re: From Freedom Scientific: Freedom Scientific is extending the Free Home-Use Software For Those Affected by COVID-19


Seriously… No good deed goes unpunished.

Vispero didn’t have to do the initial offer to begin with  or even extend  it to anyone at all.



On Jun 17, 2020, at 3:15 PM, Brian Vogel <britechguy@...> wrote:

On Wed, Jun 17, 2020 at 06:10 PM, Adrian Spratt wrote:

I’d just like you to know that many Americans have a much more sophisticated understanding of the questions you raise than you’ve read in this thread.

Then, Mr.Spratt, take the time to elaborate that "more sophisticated understanding."

You really like to throw shade, but nothing that's been said here is not factual.  And people who cry "Discrimination!!" when there is not are not doing anyone any favors.  Nor are those who are demanding things that cannot be provided for a variety of reasons, or they likely would be.  The PR itself would be worth it if it were simple to do.

Brian - Windows 10 Pro, 64-Bit, Version 1909, Build 18363  

The purpose of education is not to validate ignorance but to overcome it.
       ~ Lawrence Krauss

Join to automatically receive all group messages.