Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity


I agree with you entirely. I was most fortunate to have learned to use the computer from an exceedingly fine totally blind trainer. Along with tapes taught by blind instructors.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Marianne Denning" <marianne@...>
To: <>
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 1:49 PM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

I won't let a sighted person train me on the computer unless they can
do everything by using the computer like I do. That means, they are
listening to it rather than looking at the screen and clicking the
mouse. I have found 1 sighted trainer who is absolutely the best and
she is my trainer. I am also a trainer who keeps up with private

I work, mostly, with students in k-12 and my goal is to make it
possible for them to use all of the programs their sighted peers use.
I have them use background colors, change the color of print, put
pictures in Powerpoint... I have been teaching Google classroom and
Drive recently too.

I do need to ask questions of sighted people at times.

On 2/4/16, Gudrun Brunot <gbrunot@...> wrote:
Turning the monitor off is an excellent idea. I had a trainer in the
Washington area who is especially good because he is sighted and use JAWS,
just so he'd understand the interface. The sighted trainer has often an
extra edge in that he knows what's supposed to work, whereas the blind
trainer can get stuck in "there's just no feedback" in a specific tricky
situation or a poorly laid-out website. Please, no offense to blind
trainers. I've had several who've saved my sanity many times and to whom I
am eternally grateful.


-----Original Message-----
From: Nicole Massey [mailto:nyyki@...]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 8:56 AM
Subject: Re: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

For the congenitally blind you may have problems with directions like "the
lower right hand corner" as they tend not to have the relational perspective
for such things. The use of accelerators is of great importance, along with
things like link lists and the like. Referring to specific controls without
a positional reference will work better for blind users.
Think of it this way -- by using a physical layout as a reference instead
of these screen reader specific methods, you are doing the same thing as if
you were using OS/X terms for a Windows user. The user doesn't function in
that environment, he or she functions in one where the screen reader is the
interface. Also note that unless the user is working at a higher level in
the knowledge worker field of his or her choice, one that deals with
high-power cohorts, he or she may never have much reason to even know the
sighted methods of accessing information. For most computer users their
interest is in getting something done, not knowing how it works, in my
I suggest to any person who works with the blind/VI community to turn the
monitor off and the screen reader on from time to time to get a feel for
just what the user is experiencing.

-----Original Message-----
From: Brian Vogel [mailto:@britechguy]
Sent: Thursday, February 04, 2016 9:35 AM
Subject: Improving my teaching approach and/or sensitivity

Hello All,

I have recently been e-mailing back and forth with several members
here off-forum about topics and issues that go beyond the scope of
discussion here. In the course of a specific exchange, and from the
previous occurrence here of someone telling me, "that's a sighted answer," I
composed the following in an e-mail, which I'll share here verbatim:


I actually try to avoid purely visual descriptions to the extent
I can. You may find the following amusing, and it took me a long time to
get comfortable asking it, but the first question I ask any of my clients
when we start tutoring is, "How blind are you?" I often have very sketchy
information about what residual vision, if any, they have and it's critical
to know that (and whether it will remain) as far as how to approach certain
things. I then follow up with, "Has your vision always been this way or
could you see previously?" Both of these answers factor in to whether I
ever mention specific colors, for instance, because the actuality, as
opposed to the abstract concept, of color is meaningless to those who've
never had the sensory experience of color. Everyone, though, has to have
the concepts of left, right, up, down in both the vertical and horizontal
planes, so I don't hesitate to say something like "at the lower right"
because I know that that translates in a very specific way once you have any
orientation at all to "how you get where" in relation to your own computer
screen. If this is a bad idea, for reasons I can't fathom as a sighted
person, I welcome suggestions as to what is more appropriate and efficient
for communicating location information for access. Mind you, I do use
specifics like "in the main menu bar," "in the insert ribbon," "4th button
over by tabbing," etc..

I've never understood "the furor" that some people get into over
the use of common computer actions like click, right click, triple-finger
double-tap, etc. I mean, I realize that a screen reader user does not
literally click or right click, but they had ought to know that click
translates to select (most of the time), double click translates to
activate, there exists a "right click" function to allow you to bring up
context menus (which are often a godsend), etc. This is a situation where I
actually feel it's incumbent on the student to ask if they do not understand
what a specific "sighted" reference which is what they'll always be hearing
from someone other than a fellow screen reader user translates to in
"screen-readerese." You're never going to get a sighted assistant telling
you to "press spacebar to select/activate" something, they'll tell you
either to select it or to click on it. If you go to training classes for
non-screen reader software you absolutely have to know and understand how
common computing control jargon "translates" for you. Mind you, if I've got
an absolute beginner I teach the translation at the outset but what I don't
do is use screen readerese unless it's essential. I think that limits
independence rather than building it.


Just as I said yesterday that it is members of the cohort here, not I, who
are best able to determine if a given document is accessible via JAWS. The
cohort here is also better able to instruct me in where my assumptions,
presumptions, techniques may either be completely wrong or in need of some

The only thing I will ask is that if something in the above is considered
really offensive, please don't excoriate me about that, but make me aware
that it is offensive and why. I am honestly trying to get better at what I
do both as a tutor and as a sighted person working with people with visual
impairments. I know that my frame of reference is different than yours, or
at least could be, and that it may be in need of adjustment. The only way I
can make that adjustment is to put my thoughts out there and ask for help.

I'll close with a quotation from Carlin Romano that I think has direct
parallels here, "When intellectuals take their ideas to the mass market,
they are not just doing a good deed for the mass market. They are doing a
good thing for themselves. The mass marketplace of ideas proves to be a
better critic of big assumptions in any field than is the specialized
discipline, or one's peers."


Marianne Denning, TVI, MA
Teacher of students who are blind or visually impaired
(513) 607-6053

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